Discipline for unmarried single endowed woman

[lokimaq00]

I was recently in a discussion with a friend who has stumbled in her faith. She had been dating someone who was apparently also struggling in his faith and it seems to me that he was dragging her down. It's been several months since they broke up and she's at this odd place where she wants desperately to marry and go to the temple, but she's not even sure about her testimony. Of course, that's only one problem. As we talked, she revealed that while they haven't slept together, oral sex has occurred and since she is endowed, though never married, she's scared to death to speak to her bishop. I can understand her fear, but I don't know (who does except leadership) what that means for her. She's afraid she will be taken before a disciplinary council. I mean, she legit broke down at the idea of it and I cannot blame her. I fear that if she had to go in front of a bunch of men... she may never come back to church. Does anyone have guidance one what might possibly happen in her situation?

[Grunt]

6 hours ago, lokimaq00 said:

I was recently in a discussion with a friend who has stumbled in her faith. She had been dating someone who was apparently also struggling in his faith and it seems to me that he was dragging her down. It's been several months since they broke up and she's at this odd place where she wants desperately to marry and go to the temple, but she's not even sure about her testimony. Of course, that's only one problem. As we talked, she revealed that while they haven't slept together, oral sex has occurred and since she is endowed, though never married, she's scared to death to speak to her bishop. I can understand her fear, but I don't know (who does except leadership) what that means for her. She's afraid she will be taken before a disciplinary council. I mean, she legit broke down at the idea of it and I cannot blame her. I fear that if she had to go in front of a bunch of men... she may never come back to church. Does anyone have guidance one what might possibly happen in her situation?

Many people break down at the thought of facing responsibility for their actions.  However, to truly get on the right path it is necessary.  You can fake your way past the Bishop, but not Heavenly Father.

[Vort]

6 hours ago, lokimaq00 said:

As we talked, she revealed that while they haven't slept together, oral sex has occurred and since she is endowed, though never married, she's scared to death to speak to her bishop...She's afraid she will be taken before a disciplinary council...I fear that if she had to go in front of a bunch of men... she may never come back to church.

I jumped off a bridge and now I'm scared to death to speak with my doctor. What if he puts me in a cast? What if he -- gulp -- operates?! I don't think I could stand that. Can anyone tell me what my doctor will do? Can I get any guarantees that he won't cut my leg open and operate on me? A whole surgical team of old white men looking at me...I just don't think I could stand the humiliation.

Your friend is worrying about all the wrong things. She needs to get her head on straight. As her friend, you should be helping her in that quest.

[zil]

6 hours ago, lokimaq00 said:

I was recently in a discussion with a friend who has stumbled in her faith. She had been dating someone who was apparently also struggling in his faith and it seems to me that he was dragging her down. It's been several months since they broke up and she's at this odd place where she wants desperately to marry and go to the temple, but she's not even sure about her testimony. Of course, that's only one problem. As we talked, she revealed that while they haven't slept together, oral sex has occurred and since she is endowed, though never married, she's scared to death to speak to her bishop. I can understand her fear, but I don't know (who does except leadership) what that means for her. She's afraid she will be taken before a disciplinary council. I mean, she legit broke down at the idea of it and I cannot blame her. I fear that if she had to go in front of a bunch of men... she may never come back to church. Does anyone have guidance one what might possibly happen in her situation? 

1) She should do nothing to make matters worse (e.g. more sin, going to the temple, etc.)

2) Satan is the one whose idea is to hide our sins - remind her of that.  Remind her that nothing good comes from doing what Satan thinks is a good idea.

3) The bishop has the keys and calling to help her.  She can't become whole alone.  The bishop''s goal in this will be to help her recognize the severity of her sin, recognize what was lost, and learn to recover what was lost so that she can become whole again.  As Vort and Grunt mentioned, this isn't something to fear (the fear is Satan trying to keep her from being whole).  Things will start improving as soon as she goes to confess.

4) The longer she waits, the harder it will be to do the right thing.  Encourage her to be brave.  Let her know that she can ask for a woman to be there with her, if she wants.  I would think even you could be there, if she wants - since you already know.  Or maybe offer to wait out in the hallway until it's done.

Perhaps going through this process, which requires humility and, hopefully, a bishop-guided refresher course in some of the basics of the gospel, will help her to find her faith again.

The thing about faith is that it requires daily maintenance.  When she started to stumble, rather than doing repairs and maintenance on her faith, she decided to just go with the falling part, so of course her faith is in a worse place - just a natural consequence.  So she needs to decide whether she's going to do the needed repairs and set up a maintenance plan, or if she's just gonna keep falling.  "All have fallen, but how far we fall depends on us." (Old Testament and Related Studies, Patriarchy and Matriarchy, Hugh Nibley)

[Overwatch]

6 hours ago, lokimaq00 said:

while they haven't slept together, oral sex has occurred

Sister, what does this comment even mean? Sex is sex; once you go into an opening it's over. Her testimony is wavering because she was withdrawing from the spirit and darkness has moved into its place. She must face the bishop just like ANY of us would have to do and yes, being an endowed member it is possible a counsel is in order. Usually for repeat offenders but not uncommon for first time endowed members to get a counsel done. She can: be given a warning, be put on probation, be disfellowshipped or excommunicated. The last is quite extreme but may happen, especially if the member is defiant and the counsel finds the person to be a danger to the fold (meaning if they feel the person is highly likely to drag other members into sin, in this case sleep with other men in the ward before marriage)

I am glad you are there to help her. Just encourage her to keep doing the little things and also the big thing of going in to see her bishop.

[Chilean]

Yes, she needs to talk to her bishop. She needs to go through whatever he deems necessary for her to become truly repented and with a change of heart.

I wouldn't be surprise if the bishop feels like she needs a disciplinary meeting with the bishopric, I personally think is the best thing she can experience, as it will help her get closer to the spirit. Yes, it will be uncomfortable, and painful, but it will help her return.

I've learned that as we obey the commandments God will always bless us. Temple covenants are very sacred, including keeping the law of chastity, going through the repentance process will help her claim those blessings that are awaiting for her. God is bound to bless us as long as we keep our part.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Chilean

[Guest MormonGator]

Remind your friend that we all make mistakes, and that God loves her no matter what she might have done. I'm sure it's very scary for her. Poor thing, she's in my prayers. 

[MarginOfError]

The repentance process for these things is completely unpredictable, which is one aspect of why it can be so scary.  I know of teenagers who were excommunicated having sex, and teenagers who not excommunicated for having sex....in the same ward...with disciplinary councils in the same month! I know of a case where a married, endowed member had an affair, confessed, and it was a year before a disciplinary council was held. Even then the council took no disciplinary actions against the person. 

All of the situations of this nature that I am aware of involved serious reflection on the individual's understanding of the gospel, their covenants; the individual's state of mind; the strength of their testimony at the time of the transgression; and most importantly, the desire and willingness to repent. Those who have defied the repentance process or didn't take it seriously received harsh punishments. Those who were sincere in their desire to repent often received mercy.  So tell your friend to be brave, genuinely seek repentance, and submit herself the the will of the Savior.  

[lokimaq00]

Thank you all for your comments.

[marge]

Sex outside of marriage is a very serious sin.  In my church it would have me banned from receiving communion until I had rectified the situation (confessed, repented, done penance and of course stopped committing the sin) Just trying to understand the LDS confession process as I see similarities and also differences.  

In my faith penance is dished out by the priest taking the confession and is up to him what it will be (its always prayer and/or bible reading but what exactly is up to him), but certain sins (like sex outside of marriage, and it would have to be a marriage done by or at the very least approved by the church) would automatically end in the same consequence for anyone who committed it (no communion until you sort yourself out).  

From what I read in this thread the LDS confession/penance process is similar but different.  For example people have said that some people who commit sexual sins are excommunicated and some are not, so is it just up to the bishop taking the confession as to what happens? Or is there a definite list of sins that automatically require banning of the sacraments or excommunication?

I'm trying to understand why the OPs friend would be afraid of going to confession, I hope she doesn't continue to live in sin or with the guilt of having done it and not confessed, it must be a terrible feeling.  My heart goes out to her.

Forgive my ignorance on this subject, just trying to understand.

Edited October 26, 2018 by marge

[estradling75]

7 hours ago, marge said:

Sex outside of marriage is a very serious sin.  In my church it would have me banned from receiving communion until I had rectified the situation (confessed, repented, done penance and of course stopped committing the sin) Just trying to understand the LDS confession process as I see similarities and also differences.  

In my faith penance is dished out by the priest taking the confession and is up to him what it will be (its always prayer and/or bible reading but what exactly is up to him), but certain sins (like sex outside of marriage, and it would have to be a marriage done by or at the very least approved by the church) would automatically end in the same consequence for anyone who committed it (no communion until you sort yourself out).  

From what I read in this thread the LDS confession/penance process is similar but different.  For example people have said that some people who commit sexual sins are excommunicated and some are not, so is it just up to the bishop taking the confession as to what happens? Or is there a definite list of sins that automatically require banning of the sacraments or excommunication?

I'm trying to understand why the OPs friend would be afraid of going to confession, I hope she doesn't continue to live in sin or with the guilt of having done it and not confessed, it must be a terrible feeling.  My heart goes out to her.

Forgive my ignorance on this subject, just trying to understand.

Welcome @marge

In our faith the Bishop does not forgive sin, he does try to help the sinner be reconciled to God so that they can be forgiven (and know it).  Therefore it is not the Bishop's job to hand out a punishment (although sometimes it can look and feel that way).  Each individual sinner is going to be at a different place in being reconciled to God, the Bishop needs to learn and understand where the sinner is and then help the process continue.  The hardhearted, rebellious, and proud, will tend to get actions that will hopefully soften them (Excommuncation, Disfellowship etc.).  The brokenhearted, the humble, the meek and such is met with the arms of love wide open.  Of course most people are a mixture and therefore the Bishop responds in a mixed manor.

Since we are an internet forum responding to limited data from the OP we can not tell what the bishop's response will be after hearing her, asking questions, and asking the Lord for guidance.  We do not have the knowledge and the guidance the Bishop should get.

As for fear... people generally fear what they do not know... and when they do something wrong they can fear others responses when the other people find out.  This is not the way Christ would have it, but it is what he (and us) has to work with.

 

[marge]

10 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Welcome @marge

In our faith the Bishop does not forgive sin, he does try to help the sinner be reconciled to God so that they can be forgiven (and know it).  Therefore it is not the Bishop's job to hand out a punishment (although sometimes it can look and feel that way).  Each individual sinner is going to be at a different place in being reconciled to God, the Bishop needs to learn and understand where the sinner is and then help the process continue.  The hardhearted, rebellious, and proud, will tend to get actions that will hopefully soften them (Excommuncation, Disfellowship etc.).  The brokenhearted, the humble, the meek and such is met with the arms of love wide open.  Of course most people are a mixture and therefore the Bishop responds in a mixed manor.

Since we are an internet forum responding to limited data from the OP we can not tell what the bishop's response will be after hearing her, asking questions, and asking the Lord for guidance.  We do not have the knowledge and the guidance the Bishop should get.

As for fear... people generally fear what they do not know... and when they do something wrong they can fear others responses when the other people find out.  This is not the way Christ would have it, but it is what he (and us) has to work with.

 

Thanks I think I get it now, so its up to the bishop on a case by case basis. Two people can have the same sin and get different outcomes dependant on their attitude to the situation.  The bishop then prays about it and seeks guidance from the Lord on what to do about the situation.  Is that right?

[Fether]

56 minutes ago, marge said:

Thanks I think I get it now, so its up to the bishop on a case by case basis. Two people can have the same sin and get different outcomes dependant on their attitude to the situation.  The bishop then prays about it and seeks guidance from the Lord on what to do about the situation.  Is that right?

Pretty much. I had a conversation with a companion of mine on my mission. We had similar sins in our youth and our bishops responded to them drastically different. My companion was only told he needed to stop and was convinced I had committed some greater sin when I told him the restrictions the bishop gave me. Haha, he would pester me on occasion in saying “Common elder [Fether]! Tell me what you did!!”

So ya... people come on here all the time and ask what will happen. The answer is always “we don’t know”

[Jane_Doe]

Welcome @marge!

[estradling75]

4 hours ago, marge said:

Thanks I think I get it now, so its up to the bishop on a case by case basis. Two people can have the same sin and get different outcomes dependant on their attitude to the situation.  The bishop then prays about it and seeks guidance from the Lord on what to do about the situation.  Is that right?

Yeah more or less...  Sadly lots of people misunderstand how it works... some think it is like some kind of Legal Court Room where punishment is handled out for wrong doing causing them to be confused/offended when different 'punishments' are handed out for the 'same sin.' 

[Sunday21]

@marge 👋 Hi! Glad that you are here!