Stirring the pot at church


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4 hours ago, KScience said:

If we dont ask the awkward questions in Sunday School where do we ask them?  If members can't probe and question sincerely they will look to other sources.

Of course we can ask them.  But do it politely and be considerate enough to ask questions that are on topic. Apart from some very basic guidelines, believe any such sincere questions should be asked.  But the asker must also be prepared for the eventual answer "I don't know"

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5 hours ago, KScience said:

If we dont ask the awkward questions in Sunday School where do we ask them?

I keep hearing this, and it baffles me.  Do members never converse anywhere but during church?  Do they not read?  Do they not use the internet?  There are a gazillion ways in which to seek out information and have discussions.  If the members of the Church never talk to each other except during Sunday School, we've got serious problems.

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8 minutes ago, zil said:

I keep hearing this, and it baffles me.  Do members never converse anywhere but during church?  Do they not read?  Do they not use the internet?  There are a gazillion ways in which to seek out information and have discussions.  If the members of the Church never talk to each other except during Sunday School, we've got serious problems.

What are you talking about?  Where on the internet would you ever find a group of Saints gathering... like in a forum or something... to discuss doctrinal matters and go over lesser known doctrines?  I think you must be living in fantasy land.

Edited by Guest
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I don't see members except for at church. Usually that is on a Sunday (although the stake managed a Saturday activity too this week).   I am new to the ward but even in wards I have been more established in I very rarely saw members other than on a Sunday unless I was serving in YW or a YSA attending institute. I could count on a monthly visit from HT or VT most of the time and had a great relationship with my last HT and we had some great discussions, but this was not always the case. I am starting to get to know the sisters I minister to, so maybe in time we could grow towards this sort of relationship, at the moment they are flattered when I phone as I have noticed they have missed sacrament and check if they are OK.  I  assume this a cultural difference between wards in the UK and in Utah. Most members don't have family to ask. If I had grown up in a ward or not moved as often maybe I would have these relationships.

I study alone, I can ask strangers on the internet - but I don't know how to validate the opinions they are giving me; and that was my point really.

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In my limited experience, it seems like people who are concerned with having a place to "ask the awkward questions" aren't really interested in finding answers to the awkward questions, because answers abound. They're typically more interested in having a place to rabble rouse.

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7 minutes ago, KScience said:

I study alone, I can ask strangers on the internet - but I don't know how to validate the opinions they are giving me; and that was my point really.

If you had a place in church to ask those questions they'd still be un-validated opinions by fellow members -- no different than on the internet.

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@KScience Hi there! You can try AskGramps.

The Gospel Library app has both the seminary and institute manuals. These manuals have references to books that you can order from Deseret books.

You can google FairMormon. they have essays on various topics.

Ldsnewroom has a list of essays.

The Sunday school teacher might have an interest in certain topics eg where are the lost ten tribes? But most of these deep questions are answered only through speculation. These speculations or gospel hobbies are not really the job of the church to answer. We can hope for a really insightful Sunday School class in the next life. The church isn’t in the business of clearing up all the gospel mysteries. 

If something is bugging you, eg Where are the Lost Tribes? post the question here or try some of the resources listed above.

The function of Sunday School is not to dig deep. Instead to instruct on a basic level and, if you know all the basics, to remind. 

Is the problem that you are bored with Sunday School? 

Edited by Sunday21
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2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

In my limited experience, it seems like people who are concerned with having a place to "ask the awkward questions" aren't really interested in finding answers to the awkward questions, because answers abound. They're typically more interested in having a place to rabble rouse.

I hope that we don't always assume that everyone who asks a question (or a certain type of question) is a rabble rouser. I am reminded of this recent BYU devotional where Professor Huntsman ask us to make spaces (doesn't necessarily have to be Sunday School, though I am not convinced that it could not sometimes be Sunday School) "where our sisters and brothers can safely question, seek understanding, and share their pain." (https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/eric-d-huntsman_hard-sayings-and-safe-spaces-making-room-for-both-struggle-and-faith/ ). I don't think that assuming that the questioner must be some kind of rabble rouser is conducive to building these kind of spaces.

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Sunday 21, I am not bored by Sunday school as I am in primary.  I have only ever had short periods in Gospel Doctrine or Relief Society so not sat through the same manuals year after year.  I have used the manuals for personal study and love the availability we have of online resources now.  I have always been a nerd and invested in books and FARMS resources before the internet took off in the way it has.  What I do miss is discussion and other peoples perspectives challenging my own narrow views.  I do lurk on forums and get some of this,  but the written word lacks the tone and you cant read expression.

 

I also think I have interpreted the OP differently.  I am not talking about particularly deep topics, just open discussion and exploring basic gospel principles in a more than superficial manner and being able to apply the principles in meaningful ways that people can learn from and broaden their experience.

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23 minutes ago, KScience said:

Sunday 21, I am not bored by Sunday school as I am in primary.  I have only ever had short periods in Gospel Doctrine or Relief Society so not sat through the same manuals year after year.  I have used the manuals for personal study and love the availability we have of online resources now.  I have always been a nerd and invested in books and FARMS resources before the internet took off in the way it has.  What I do miss is discussion and other peoples perspectives challenging my own narrow views.  I do lurk on forums and get some of this,  but the written word lacks the tone and you cant read expression.

 

I also think I have interpreted the OP differently.  I am not talking about particularly deep topics, just open discussion and exploring basic gospel principles in a more than superficial manner and being able to apply the principles in meaningful ways that people can learn from and broaden their experience.

@KScience We have a chat function! Why not, post a theological question and maybe we can organize a chat? 

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25 minutes ago, KScience said:

I also think I have interpreted the OP differently.  I am not talking about particularly deep topics, just open discussion and exploring basic gospel principles in a more than superficial manner and being able to apply the principles in meaningful ways that people can learn from and broaden their experience.

It is my opinion, FWIW, that church is exactly the place for this, and if it isn't happening in anyone's ward, they should make efforts to introduce it themselves via hand raising. 

I wouldn't exactly call this approach "awkward" though.

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2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It is my opinion, FWIW, that church is exactly the place for this, and if it isn't happening in anyone's ward, they should make efforts to introduce it themselves via hand raising. 

I wouldn't exactly call this approach "awkward" though.

I am a bit of a hobo and in my experience this happens too often, and it can feel awkward to have a wall of silence if you are teaching and challenge the "sunday school answers" with follow ups of "what does than mean on a day to day basis?" or " what does that look like in your life?" or if as a participant the questioning is so narrow that the specific answer is reached and then the discussion moved on (usually because of the awkward silence waiting for a response).

 

I also think my professional life a as a teacher a lecturer may skew my view on superficial or stock answers and  it is my nature/ habit to delve further and can make people feel awkward...which I try very hard not to do.  Its much easier to dig deeper with  primary kids and youth IME

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5 minutes ago, KScience said:

I am a bit of a hobo and in my experience this happens too often, and it can feel awkward to have a wall of silence if you are teaching and challenge the "sunday school answers" with follow ups of "what does than mean on a day to day basis?" or " what does that look like in your life?" or if as a participant the questioning is so narrow that the specific answer is reached and then the discussion moved on (usually because of the awkward silence waiting for a response).

 

I also think my professional life a as a teacher a lecturer may skew my view on superficial or stock answers and  it is my nature/ habit to delve further and can make people feel awkward...which I try very hard not to do.  Its much easier to dig deeper with  primary kids and youth IME

If a church teacher...or anyone listening...is not following up with those sorts of questions they are doing it wrong. Application to day-to-day life is the only point.

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29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

If a church teacher...or anyone listening...is not following up with those sorts of questions they are doing it wrong. Application to day-to-day life is the only point.

In the CES, they actually tell the seminary and institute teachers to avoid giving examples of ways to apply, but to leave that to the learner. This might be different if a student specifically asks for guidance, but they aren’t suppose to teach any application.

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39 minutes ago, Fether said:

In the CES, they actually tell the seminary and institute teachers to avoid giving examples of ways to apply, but to leave that to the learner. This might be different if a student specifically asks for guidance, but they aren’t suppose to teach any application.

I cannot speak to CES or who "they" is. But the manuals, methods, resources, etc., for church specifically talk about applying the lessons to life. For example:

https://www.lds.org/callings/teachers?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/teaching-in-the-saviors-way/part-4-invite-diligent-learning/ask-inspired-questions?lang=eng

Of course you're suggesting the teacher shouldn't apply via examples...but we were talking about asking questions...which does leave it to the learner. I cannot see any reason why a teacher wouldn't give an example if they have one, whereas in church we are a lay leadership/teachers organization and the teacher is a learner as much as the class members. But..

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 hour ago, Fether said:

In the CES, they actually tell the seminary and institute teachers to avoid giving examples of ways to apply, but to leave that to the learner. This might be different if a student specifically asks for guidance, but they aren’t suppose to teach any application.

When the point is to teach the doctrine, it makes sense not to obscure or confuse things with artificial scenarios - especially when your listeners are sufficiently diverse that the scenario might not apply to all.  But when teaching a gospel doctrine class, it makes sense to ask class members what the scriptures being studied mean for them in their life.  IMO.

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On 9/23/2018 at 9:09 AM, zil said:

I keep hearing this, and it baffles me.  Do members never converse anywhere but during church?  Do they not read?  Do they not use the internet?  There are a gazillion ways in which to seek out information and have discussions.  If the members of the Church never talk to each other except during Sunday School, we've got serious problems.

This I agree with whole-heartedly.  

On 9/23/2018 at 9:17 AM, Carborendum said:

What are you talking about?  Where on the internet would you ever find a group of Saints gathering... like in a forum or something... to discuss doctrinal matters and go over lesser known doctrines?  I think you must be living in fantasy land.

This is a two-edged sword.  I frequently find this forum to be entirely inhospitable to people like myself who do not subscribe to the more orthodox/traditionalist/literalist leanings of the Church membership[1].  And there was a time where my continued participation in the Church in general was at risk because a number of the participants here had me convinced that I was not welcome (unless I changed my ways).

1. One recent example, 

 

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On 9/17/2018 at 11:13 AM, Vort said:

When I was young, I believed (was told, probably) that we pass sacrament to the bishop first out of respect and deference to him. This rubbed me wrong even as a deacon, since even as a youth I realized that the sacrament is not to be used to honor people. So -- and I'm ashamed of my youthful rebelliousness -- I would often try to hurry up and pass to someone else first before the bishop, just because. Stick it to The Man, and all that.

Of course, there is a good reason to offer the sacrament first to the bishop (or whoever is in charge of the meeting). The ordinance is done under his auspices; he approves the performance of the ordinance or directs it to be redone. It's not a matter of honoring the man, or even the office. It's a matter of the president presiding.

I always have thought that it is because he stands as our "judge in Israel" and as such is kind of held accountable for making sure it is all done right. Also..... he gets the piece of bread first so we can gauge it's staleness level by his facial expression...then I can ready myself to partake without gagging in front of my kids ;)

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Quote

The purpose of Sunday School/Auxiliary meetings is to strengthen faith and testimony. 

Yes, that is the purpose, but weird and stirring the pot questions do pop up in those meetings occasionally, at least in wards I have attended.

30-40 years ago (and probably long before that, but I'm not old enough to verify), my least favorite questions were about race.  In my old ward people used to debate the curse of Cain/origin of blacks while in Sunday school.  It used to be common, but thank goodness that time has past.  I always hated those debates and never got involved in them.  

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  • 1 year later...

It is an important topic.

The Prophet Joseph Smith, who was intimately interested in the topic, taught
consistently from 1842 until very shortly before his death in 1844 that children would not grow
after the resurrection. Eternity is full of a beautiful group differing in size and physical attributes.
The Prophet Joseph’s teachings, based on his revelations and visions, were recorded
contemporaneously, by multiple witnesses, and in both public and private settings with stunning
harmony. It was not until decades after his death that his consistency on the topic was
questioned. Additionally, the lack of exaltation was attested and aligns with Joseph’s teaching
that they would not grow and thus, by default, could not procreate or have offspring. Such a
doctrine, while difficult to swallow, concurs with the plan of salvation which requires individuals
to be tempted, exercise agency in the midst of opposition, taste the bitter, and suffer, which these children can never do.

After his death, the Apostles, many of whom had not attended his discourses due to
having been away on missions, developed differing opinions and theories about the destiny of
little children. The next four Church Presidents who succeeded the Prophet Joseph, and knew
him personally, never ventured to correct his recorded teachings on the matter. Eventually, it
was Joseph F. Smith who made a push to establish a doctrine on the subject with an appeal to
late recollections of familial and private statements made in 1843; which even if correct would
be superseded by the Prophet’s later declarations.

This article goes through it in detail:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L4HTNE3hDiKLWuBxWe5T4n-nIiyd1eLy/view?usp=sharing

Edited by Ezra Pax
accuracy
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