Apostle’s wives


Shrinks
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34 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yes, and the chances skyrocket with each prior divorce. 

But...she obviously hasn't changed.  One divorce could be bad luck or bad circumstances. Two divorces, it's time to look inward. Three divorces-you are the problem 100%. 

Perhaps, but it's still a red flag. 

I agree that one has to be quite cautious with a potential spouse with multiple divorces.  You can ask what happened that led to the divorce, but you are only going to get one side and most likely you are not going to get the root cause.  If the cause of divorce was abuse in each case, then I could be more lenient.  If the cause was lack of love, growing apart, infidelity, etc.  Chances are great that the potential spouse had a hand to play in those causes.  And if they don't recognize their part in the failure, then chances are the failure will happen again.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

I agree that one has to be quite cautious with a potential spouse with multiple divorces.  You can ask what happened that led to the divorce, but you are only going to get one side and most likely you are not going to get the root cause.  If the cause of divorce was abuse in each case, then I could be more lenient.  If the cause was lack of love, growing apart, infidelity, etc.  Chances are great that the potential spouse had a hand to play in those causes.  And if they don't recognize their part in the failure, then chances are the failure will happen again.

 

 

I agree. And even though I've never been divorced, I have strong feelings about how horrible it is. So that clouds my judgement as well, no doubt. 

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On 9/17/2018 at 10:45 PM, Shrinks said:

Hi my brother is going to marry a girl that has been married twice before with 2 kids. She struggled a lot with a broken family and inactivity. 

I’m a little worried about him marrying her, I was just curious. Has anyone ever heard of an apostle of general authority marrying a woman that has been married before or had a promiscuous past? I know it’s a long shot, but it’d be comforting to know that leaders of the church have taken the risk before.

I would definitely be cautious about marrying a twice divorced person. Hopefully, her character speaks for her, and she is an honest, hard-working, spiritual, loving woman.

I married a divorced man who had custody of his two young (2 and 4 year old) children. He was/is a wonderful man. But, I admit, if I knew then what I know now I would not have married him.  It has been extremely difficult! There is no privacy. All vacations had to be coordinated between us and the ex. Financially it was hard.  His ex refused to pay any child support even though her income was equal to my husband’s. Whenever my husband asked her to be financially responsible, she would threaten to go to court to get custody of the kids. Thus, there was very little security. We were always fearful she would do this.

For special family functions such as birthdays, baptisms, etc. the ex will be there. When there are kids involved the ex will always be a factor, and it’s hard to be a nuclear family. A blended family is not the same as a first marriage family. No matter how much you want it to be, and try for a normal family, there are always the interruptions, phone calls, etc. from the ex. Boundaries are important to be set up between the spouse and the ex so misunderstandings are limited.

And then there is the stepchild and stepparent  relationship. There can be loyalty issues. Usually there are problems between stepdaughters and stepmothers. My stepdaughter, even though she is now 40, has hangups and loyalty issues with me. I could have been a perfect stepparent, and she would still have issues with me. It is what it is. We are civil to one another. I love her, but the feeling isn’t reciprocated. I’ve had to disengage so I’m not so emotionally devastated. Stepparent and stepchild issues is one of the big factors of divorce in remarriage. And, the biospouse needs to support and include the new spouse in the decisions about visitation, etc.

As a stepparent every interaction with the stepchildren was scrutinized. My mother-in-law was traumatized by her stepfather and watched my every move with her grandchildren. She came to love and appreciate me, even telling my husband that I have been a blessing in their lives. But, it was rough those first few years until I gained her trust.

One Sunday there was a woman at church who told me that she was watching me how I disciplined my stepson who was misbehaving by teasing the baby. She told me I did wonderfully, treating my stepson lovingly, like I would my own child. It was a reminder that as a stepparent, I was being scrutinized and judged without even realizing it.

And then there are the times when the marriage relationship is going through a rough patch. All marriages have their ups and downs, but in a remarriage there are added insecurities. I’ve read where a remarriage can be classified as a “special needs” marriage/relationship. As with any marriage, love needs to be communicated, but a remarriage often times has to deal with the extra insecurities, such as “am I  second choice?” Is our relationship as meaningful as the first, such as “been there done that” and not as exciting?  Is the relationship between husband and wife strong, so as spouse is dealing with ex, which needs to be done on occasion because of the kids, there are no loyalty issues?

These can be some of the extra issues spouses have in dealing with a remarriage. That’s why the divorce rate is higher with second and subsequent marriages. It isn’t easy!

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9 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Perhaps, but it's still a red flag. 

Yes, it is a red flag and somebody should do their due diligence to see if there is an unresolved character flaw or whatever, but you should make a judgement against an individual based on the statistics of a group.

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29 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

Yes, it is a red flag and somebody should do their due diligence to see if there is an unresolved character flaw or whatever, but you should make a judgement against an individual based on the statistics of a group.

Too late.

Yes, I judge people who have been divorced multiple times. No apologies. 

Not the state of their souls, and yes, I'm still friends with people who have had marital trouble. However I judge them to have some kind of trouble in either forming or maintaining relationships. 

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On 9/20/2018 at 5:42 PM, Latter-Day Marriage said:

CauseNo, you have it wrong.  If he doesn't love her enough to gladly take on whatever changes go hand in hand with marrying her as a result of who she is and what her circumstances currently are, then he should not marry her (because he doesn't love her as a husband should).  If his reasons are shallow and superficial then she is better off without him too.

Some major virtue signaling going on here.

I don’t understand your disconnect of a woman’s attributes and your love for them. You are speaking as if love is some natural event that occurs when souls come into contact and any interaction we have with them is separate than our development of love. You seem to be suggesting that a man is of less worth if he finds a woman’s immense weight, inability to remain committed to a marriage,  or casual alcohol use reprehensible. Have I sinned if I refuse to marry a woman that is sleeping around with men and will continue to be addicted to sex throughout our marriage? Have I sinned if I choose not to marry a woman because she has autism and I can’t deal with that sort of stressful relationship? Have I sinned because I break up with a girl with anxiety and severe insomnia because I can’t personally deal with the stress the relationship brings?? Have so sinned if I break up with a girl because I realize I don’t find her attractive???

 @Vort once said on a thread ages ago one of the most profound things I have heard when it comes to dating and marriage “Marriage is not an opportunity to show your friends how open-minded you are.“ (as I write that I am somewhat embarrassed that I found that so inspiring).

Struggles in marriage are normal, but if you see a woman bringing in baggage that you know you can’t handle, don’t handle it, don’t marry her. Acting purely off of feeling on who to marry is a terrible Idea. It is not a matter of “does my emotional love for her over shout my conscious that is screaming GET AWAY!”. It’s a matter of whether your emotions and your conscious agree on your choice.

 Some of us need to be more picky when we pick our spouses.

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

Some major virtue signaling going on here.

@VortI don’t understand your disconnect of a woman’s attributes and your love for them. You are speaking as if love is some natural event that occurs when souls come into contact and any interaction we have with them is separate than our development of love. You seem to be suggesting that a man is of less worth if he finds a woman’s immense weight, inability to remain committed to a marriage,  or casual alcohol use reprehensible. Have I sinned if I refuse to marry a woman that is sleeping around with men and will continue to be addicted to sex throughout our marriage? Have I sinned if I choose not to marry a woman because she has autism and I can’t deal with that sort of stressful relationship? Have I sinned because I break up with a girl with anxiety and severe insomnia because I can’t personally deal with the stress the relationship brings?? Have so sinned if I break up with a girl because I realize I don’t find her attractive???

 

You are reading way too much into what I'm saying.  If you don't love somebody enough to desire them as your spouse as they are, flaws and all, then you shouldn't be marrying them.  Simple as that.  I fail to see what is objectionable about that.  I said nothing about sin, and I didn't define what constituted shallow reasons for rejecting somebody so please don't try and put words into my mouth.  If you want to assert there is no such thing as a shallow reason to reject somebody, feel free to elaborate on that.

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36 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

I didn't define what constituted shallow reasons for rejecting somebody so please don't try and put words into my mouth

This is where I got it from when you said 

If he doesn't love her enough to gladly take on whatever changes go hand in hand with marrying her as a result of who she is and what her circumstances currently are, then he should not marry her (because he doesn't love her as a husband should).  If his reasons are shallow and superficial then she is better off without him too.”

That seemed to me that you were calling the man that refuses to marry a woman for whatever the reason is shallow.

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On 9/21/2018 at 8:32 AM, MormonGator said:

But...she obviously hasn't changed.  One divorce could be bad luck or bad circumstances. Two divorces, it's time to look inward. Three divorces-you are the problem 100%. 

I disagree.  My sister is thrice divorced.

  • My sister ended her first marriage after about 20 years because her husband cheated on her.
  • She ended the second because her husband... had issues.  Note that this is a guy she knew from childhood.  So, she figured she knew what kind of guy he was.  But, no.  He had some problems that they simply could not reconcile.
  • The third marriage ended because her husband could not deal with her health issues. This was into her old age and she's got lupus among other things.  And the medical issues were simply too much for him to handle.

One could make an argument that she could have tried harder in the second marriage, but there is much more to the story.  One could say that the third was her fault since she's the one who got sick.  But that's not really what we mean when we say "you are the problem."

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7 hours ago, MormonGator said:

For the record, I also have family that is thrice divorced.  We'll have to agree to disagree. 

It's not just that she's my sister.  It is because she is my sister that I happen to know all the details.  And you're wrong.

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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

  And you're wrong.

Sorry bro, I stand by everything I said 100%. At the very least, my family member who has been divorced thrice has a problem with who he chooses as a partner-so the blame is on him, at least to some degree. 

That, and in reality, some marriages go through the exact same things and survive. Infidelity. Addiction. Sicknesses. So yes, while we are all human and we all have flaws, that is how I feel.  

Edited by MormonGator
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10 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Sorry bro, I stand by everything I said 100%. At the very least, my family member who has been divorced thrice has a problem with who he chooses as a partner-so the blame is on him, at least to some degree. 

That, and in reality, some marriages go through the exact same things and survive. Infidelity. Addiction. Sicknesses. So yes, while we are all human and we all have flaws, that is how I feel.  

The main thing I disagree with was your usage of "their fault 100%". No.  "Choosing the wrong partner" is not 100%.  By definition, that would mean a lion's share of that divorce must lie with the partner.

Back to my sister's example.  There was certainly a portion of the blame to my sister for choosing the wrong parter.

1) First guy had a lot of good traits.  But none of us had a good feeling about him going in.  As time went on, we got used to him. By most accounts, he was a decent guy.  But he just wasn't "great".  But it did last 20 years.  That isn't so bad by today's standards.

2) We all liked this guy.  I particularly liked him because of some things he did that showed how much he cared for and respected her.  But the interactions between the husband and her children simply couldn't be reconciled.  Then things came to a head when she as in an accident.  But that's another story.

3) I didn't like the third guy.  I was about the only one in my family who met him. This was later in life  So, gathering the family together was not a priority for her.  He was a decent guy overall. But he had been worn out by life.  He had two special needs kids to deal with.  And when his wife began to have medical issues as well, that was simply too much for him to handle.  And he gave up.  He decided that he had a priority to his children over his wife.  Odd.  I don't know if that was sincere or not.  But that's what he said.

Did she choose the wrong guys?  I'd think the worst one as really the first one.  But it lasted 20 years.  The second one was the one that could have lasted longer. But there were other factors as well.  The third one?  How can you plan to get lupus or understand how a man will react when asked to put his whole life on hold to take care of you?

Sure, she shares some of the blame.  But 100%?  No.

NOTE: I also understand that statistically, you are closer to being correct.  But you can't make this a blanket statement for everyone.

Edited by Guest
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One alternative to getting married right away is waiting until your children are adults to remarry. When I was a boy I had a neighbor who got a divorce (her member husband was a drug user) She worked very hard all through her children's childhood and eventually got remarried to a very loving man and member after her children grew up. This may be more manageable than trying to juggle two families with visitation and such.

Edited by Overwatch
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On 9/22/2018 at 1:06 AM, Fether said:

This is where I got it from when you said 

If he doesn't love her enough to gladly take on whatever changes go hand in hand with marrying her as a result of who she is and what her circumstances currently are, then he should not marry her (because he doesn't love her as a husband should).  If his reasons are shallow and superficial then she is better off without him too.”

That seemed to me that you were calling the man that refuses to marry a woman for whatever the reason is shallow.

Somebody could have shallow reasons or have perfectly reasonable reasons.  That's why I said 'IF his reasons are shallow...'

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