What to do about Pronouns


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So for my childhood, I have grown up in a LDS community, and I decided to go to Portland, Oregon for college. 

With this transition, came new ideas put in my face. (Of course, I did my research.) But now, I find myself have to introduce name, major, and "preferred pronouns". 

At the end of the day, you do you.

But I personally don't know how to handle this situation. A man is a man, and a woman is a woman. (And cases of intersex are real) That's why we have he and she. And like what some well known people like Jordan Petersen say that it's not good to force language.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I'd rather not use preferred pronouns. Cuz I mean (and this is just my personal idea) the more we use these words for whoever, aren't they just gonna lose their meaning? Like we have "she" to help identify females, but if we threw it around, it would no longer mean specifically for what it was created for in the first place. 

Am I wrong for thinking like this? Of course in the end, think what you want. 

Thanks in advance for any responses. :)

Edited by Wave
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I have a facebook arguing buddy, who married a lady who now says she's a man named George.  I just plain out asked my buddy to help me with pronouns.  He thanked me, and said "George uses male pronouns".  

I have yet to actually meet either of them face to face, I'm still not sure what I'd do.  The second great commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself.  I don't know crap about this person, what they're like, their beliefs and loves and fears.  The only thing I know is that folks going through gender transitions tend to have lots and lots of problems, up to and including suicide rates off the charts.  I don't think I'd go in trying to be insulting, openly refusing to call George 'him' and making a big deal about it.  I'd probably just plain admit that I still feel totally awkward and don't know what to do.  Then I'd tell a funny story about my facebook buddy from our youth that this person would probably find funny.

All that said, encouraging people to have problems that simply aren't there for most people, sort of makes me a tad disrespectful.  I dunno.  You figure it out and come tell us!  :)

Edited by NeuroTypical
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1 hour ago, Wave said:

Am I wrong for thinking like this?

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Depends on your motivations.

Pronouns are descriptors.  It describes something to promote understanding.  So, when you look at an apple, you describe it as Red so that the guy you're talking to understands what you are talking about.  Now, if the apple then says - I am not Red!  I am Green!  Henceforth, I want you to call me Green Apple!  So, with that in mind, you go talk to somebody else and says... that apple over there... and he asks, "which apple?"  and so you say, "that Red Apple" because then, that promotes understanding.  If you tell the guy, "that Green Apple", you're just going to confuse him more.  But if you're talking to the apple in a group who understands that when you say, the Green Apple, you actually mean that red apple over there, then you can go ahead and refer to the red apple as Green Apple.

Do you understand?

Of course, it takes a lot of brainpower to have to remember that dark red apple over there prefers to be referred to as Green Apple and this green apple over here wants Orange Apple and that light red apple over yonder wants Blue Apple... so, if you want to stop your brain from hurting, you can go ahead and use the descriptor that makes sense to you and if they accuse you of being offensive then you just tell them they're being intolerant to the capacity of your brain.

Make sense? 

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I haven't had to put my own idea to the test, but my thinking is this:

There are legitimate cases where transsexuals have gone through the medical, psychological and legal processes to change sex.  In cases like that, yeah I will probably use the new pronouns that apply... And that mainly because in the Church Handbook it says there may be cases where a person who has had a sex change could be baptized, etc. as the new sex identity.

In cases where some dude just suddenly decides he's a girl, no other effort made, then no.  Putting lipstick, a dress and a self righteous attitude doesn't magically transform a male into a female, and I refuse to play along.

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3 hours ago, Wave said:

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I'd rather not use preferred pronouns. 

Am I wrong for thinking like this?

No, you are not wrong. But when in Portland, do as the snowflakes do.

Wait, no. Don't do as they do. But at least speak as the snowflakes speak.

Wait, no. Don't do that, either.

But when the guy who likes to wear a dress and makeup tells you he wants to be addressed as "she", go ahead and humor him. And don't feel bad if you forget sometimes. And don't be too lavish in your apologies if (when) you do.

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3 hours ago, Wave said:

Am I wrong for thinking like this?

No, you aren't wrong. You are free to call people whatever you'd like. 

That said, you save yourself a massive headache by just doing what the Romans do. You don't have to like it, but is it worth the trouble? 

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When in a school in a state such as Oregon, my suggestion is to go by the rules that Oregon has. 

It would probably be in your best interest, that while in public, no matter how much or how little sense it makes, to refer to someone by their preferred pronoun.  When you are not around them and are in private, you can do as you wish and in our faith practice as your believe.

However, in the public, to avoid a faux pas, I would call them whatever they wish to be called.  If their name shows up on my class list as Harry and they wish to go by Sam, I'm going to call them Sam from then on out.  If they appear to be a Him, but clarify that they are actually a She or wish to be referred as a She, I'll refer to them as a She (and vice versa).

On the otherhand, they will all be judged (graded) equally as per the tests set forth in the class.  If they make a C and wish for an A...while that is a change they will need to make themselves...probably by studying harder before the mid term or final comes about.

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4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Not really an answer to the question directly, but:

"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

This is why I struggle with this question. We believe that gender is important thing, but I don't know if giving into these ideas that these people have decided to have is going against the values we believe.

Aside from that, thanks you so much for the response, everyone! ^^ 

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10 hours ago, Wave said:

This is why I struggle with this question. We believe that gender is important thing, but I don't know if giving into these ideas that these people have decided to have is going against the values we believe.

How can you not know that? Of course it is.

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It's a good thing when people can do/talk as they wish. 

But i'd recommend you decide what you do based on the person, and not based on the usually unfounded associations you might have made between that person and the hyped up extreme youtube videos you've watched about people who are suing cake bakers, pushing through federal legislation advocating compelled speech, trying to desegregate bathrooms, and encouraging the kids in kindergarten to not decide what gender they are yet, etc.,.  There is a 99% chance the person you are talking with has about as much to do with those movements as the average member of TCOJCOLDS has to do with the FLDS and Warren Jeffs, the current practice of polygamy, and blood atonement.  

And yes, i also agree that intersex people are very real and much more common than most people assume!!  Great to hear them mentioned!

Regardless, i am sad when i hear of cases where people either are forced, or feel forced.  The people who ask/demand with both pistols drawn generate far more ill-will than they do genuine respect and acceptance.  The latter i think is what most are really looking for - and that simply cannot be created through force.

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I’m pretty bitter toward the whole thing. But when I think about it, I have an acquaintance who is the nicest guy I know. He is kind, incredibly considerate, freely gives out compliments to people he only barely knows. He is a true Christlike person. He also had a sex change, he use to be a girl.

Out of respect for him, I refer to him as a him because that is what he wants. 

From there I have to ask myself. Shouldn’t I have equal respect for all human beings? So out of general decency and respect, I would call them by preferred pronouns. If you are asked to support the idea, then I would kindly stand my ground, explain my belief and explain that I respect them and expect them to respect me and my beliefs.

Edited by Fether
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47 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Regardless, i am sad when i hear of cases where people either are forced, or feel forced.  The people who ask/demand with both pistols drawn generate far more ill-will than they do genuine respect and acceptance.  The latter i think is what most are really looking for - and that simply cannot be created through force.

I understand what you're saying here and agree with you but like @Fether, one of my best friends' daughters recently became a man complete with the hormone blockers and surgeries and a girlfriend.  My friend is one of the nicest people you'll ever meet, she's so awesome I used to say "I wanna be you when I grow up".  She's the wife of my first bishop after I got baptized.  Anyway, she's definitely one of the ones seeking "the latter".  But because of her love for her transgendered son, she is attacking everybody who she perceives are not giving her son respect and acceptance so much so that she became an activist going to city hall and everything to legislate pronouns and attacking the church too.  I love her.  I love her son.  I just think she's wrong and because of that, she attacked me too.  I can't talk to her anymore because I can't be honest with her with my belief without having her feel I'm disrespecting her and her son.  The only acceptable thing for her is for me to say, yes, you're right.

Edited by anatess2
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15 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I understand what you're saying here and agree with you but like @Fether, one of my best friends' daughters recently became a man complete with the hormone blockers and surgeries and a girlfriend.  My friend is one of the nicest people you'll ever meet, she's so awesome I used to say "I wanna be you when I grow up".  She's the wife of my first bishop after I got baptized.  Anyway, she's definitely one of the ones seeking "the latter".  But because of her love for her transgendered son, she is attacking everybody who she perceives are not giving her son respect and acceptance so much so that she became an activist going to city hall and everything to legislate pronouns and attacking the church too.  I love her.  I love her son.  I just think she's wrong and because of that, she attacked me too.

Thanks.

And i guess that's all i am hoping for - that people can interact with one another from a starting place of respect, rather than one of negative, often inaccurate, generalizations.  And that sword cuts both ways.  It sounds like your friend is projecting their own negative generalizations about how society treats people like their child onto you.  And that's wrong.  

Despite that, it sounds like you've handled your specific interaction with your characteristic grace and kindness.  Props to you for that.

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Short Answer: When you're not sure, avoid gender-specific pronouns and you avoid the problem.

How do you do that?

I have a lot of family in Portland and have spent enough time there to deal with it. I've found that the best way to deal with "incorrect" pronouns is to avoid them when possible. If you're talking to them, you can use you. If you're talking about them when they can hear you, you can use their name (I've had to do this when I wasn't sure what gender they were). They also works, although not grammatically correct because it is technically for plurals,  it sounds natural in everyday speech. When they can't hear you (normally when pronouns are used) it shouldn't matter unless the person you're talking to is militant about pronouns.

 

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15 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

They also works, although not grammatically correct because it is technically for plurals,  it sounds natural in everyday speech.

 

It isn't.  "They" has a specific meaning and so when you use it for non-plural use it causes communication confusion in the same manner as using "It" as a pronoun for persons.

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12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

It isn't.  "They" has a specific meaning and so when you use it for non-plural use it causes communication confusion in the same manner as using "It" as a pronoun for persons.

I hate the "singular they". There, I said it.

Now, having laid my own biases on the table, I will add that the "singular they" is a very old feature of modern English, probably as old as the language itself. It occurs in many classic English literary works, e.g. Jane Austen novels. (I remember it from the mouth of Mrs. Bennet in Pride and Prejudice, which maybe isn't the most flattering of sources for usage, but still shows that it was commonly used.) So I do not believe there are good historical grounds for denying its usage.

And grammatical arguments fail for obvious reasons: Languages are not prescriptive, and if people talk a certain way, that's the way they talk, no matter what you might wish. Sucks, I know. I am certainly no fan of Noam Chomsky or the political nonsense he writes about, but when it comes to this topic, he's right, no matter how much you or I might hate the fact.

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On 9/19/2018 at 12:28 PM, Wave said:

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I'd rather not use preferred pronouns. Cuz I mean (and this is just my personal idea) the more we use these words for whoever, aren't they just gonna lose their meaning? Like we have "she" to help identify females, but if we threw it around, it would no longer mean specifically for what it was created for in the first place. 

Am I wrong for thinking like this? Of course in the end, think what you want. 

Thanks in advance for any responses. :)

I'm an academic, working at a university. It is not unusual to have people's email signature lines mention their preferred pronouns.  I don't know if I've had any transgender people in my classes (I have known them in 'real life,' tho), but I have had many gay people. None of this is new. I don't care what you do, or what you want me to call you. If your name is Mary and you want to be called 'he,' fine. 

But here's the thing - people have gotten in trouble for not calling others by their preferred pronoun. Lots of times it's just custom - you see what looks like a woman in front of you and you use female pronouns.  Newsflash, snowflakes - if you are going to lead a movement, maybe you need to toughen up and not let every slip of the tongue drive you to HR or the student diversity office. Maybe it was just a momentary lapse because when people look at you, you look like Mary, not like Mark. 

I think there are 2 things going on: 1) there are a very few 'real' transgender people. This must be awful for them (not because they are trans, but because life is just hard with that status). I'm not going to make their life harder by disrespecting them. I have no problem calling them whatever makes them comfortable;  and 2) most of these 'choose a pronoun' folks just think it is cool and are following a momentary fad, supported by liberalism in general and by the mental health community, which is willing to let young people just go down whatever path they get in their heads at the moment, without even suggesting that they think through whether this is who they really are (especially in terms of gender reassignment surgery and giving younger and younger people hormone therapy) and wait a few years before doing anything that may be impossible to reverse. 

I just resent having to buy into all of this in order to somehow 'prove' to the administration that I'm not a bigot.

btw - I get ticked off all kinds of ways when trans want to equate their problems with those of blacks in this country. Don't even go there with me. 

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1 minute ago, dahlia said:

btw - I get ticked off all kinds of ways when trans want to equate their problems with those of blacks in this country. Don't even go there with me. 

Agree totally. There is no comparison between the two. It's an outrage when people even try. 

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18 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

When I see threads like this I want to say  'My preferred pronoun is   "Your Highness" '   :D  Everyone make a note of it please

This conservative student at the University of Michigan decided that his* pronoun would be "His Majesty."

*Correction, His Majesty's pronoun would be...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2016/10/07/a-university-told-students-to-select-their-gender-pronouns-one-chose-his-majesty/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ab49f08c82e4

 

 

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