God's Motivation and other Lost Boy Questions

[Lost Boy]

Have you ever stopped and contemplated why God does what he does?  Does God have a motive for what he does?  What does he get out of what he does?  Or does he get anything out of it?

If he loves us, why did he let a third of the hosts of heaven follow Satan, never to be saved?

If God can do anything, why didn't he just make us all like him?  Just clone himself a bunch of times?

Why give us the option to fail?  Why not design a system that allows for exaltation without the chance of failure?

[mikbone]

Moses 1:39

Satan had the same last 2 questions that you pose.  His solution didn't work though...

[Grunt]

Why do any parents let their children learn through failure?  What do we get out of raising our own children?   It's interesting that you post this because it seems so obvious to me, yet I'm not sure how to articulate it.  I'll give it some thought and hope one of the smart people come along and do it for me.

[anatess2]

15 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Why do any parents let their children learn through failure?  What do we get out of raising our own children?   It's interesting that you post this because it seems so obvious to me, yet I'm not sure how to articulate it.  I'll give it some thought and hope one of the smart people come along and do it for me.

It's perfectly articulated by Jordan B. Peterson on his lectures about the Devouring Mother.  When you do for your children what the children should do for themselves, they grow up incompetent.  The extreme of this - the Devouring Mother - is seriously pathological.

Edited September 19, 2018 by anatess2

[Jane_Doe]

35 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Have you ever stopped and contemplated why God does what he does?  Does God have a motive for what he does?  What does he get out of what he does?  Or does he get anything out of it?

Yep.

35 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

If he loves us, why did he let a third of the hosts of heaven follow Satan, never to be saved?

Because God is loving.  Forcing people to be/do something is not love at all, but slavery.

35 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

If God can do anything, why didn't he just make us all like him?  Just clone himself a bunch of times?

Because God is a loving Father, not a brainwasher.  And children are not designer robots.

35 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Why give us the option to fail?  Why not design a system that allows for exaltation without the chance of failure?

Because God is not a slaver (see earlier answer).

[Lost Boy]

12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Yep.

Because God is loving.  Forcing people to be/do something is not love at all, but slavery.

Because God is a loving Father, not a brainwasher.  And children are not designer robots.

Because God is not a slaver (see earlier answer).

I have kind of thought the same way, but then I go deeper.

Is letting them suffer an eternity of damnation what a loving person would do?  How is that loving?

How would cloning himself be brainwashing?  Wouldn't a clone of himself be able to think just as well as him?

So why not design a system where he is not a "Slaver", but we not fail?

[goor_de]

6 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

So why not design a system where he is not a "Slaver", but we not fail?

 

there is the system, mentor for every human. a teacher this prevents wrong decisions

[Jane_Doe]

 

1 minute ago, Lost Boy said:

Is letting them suffer an eternity of damnation what a loving person would do?  How is that loving?

For Satan & his angels:  Shall God instead force them to be something they choose not to be?  They choose to be the way they are, being told full well the consequences of that choice.

For Terrestrial Kingdom folks: their eternal fate is to live forever doing what they want, happy beyond their wildest dreams, with a (limited) portion of God's light.  Hardly something to complain about, and certainly more than they deserved.  

1 minute ago, Lost Boy said:

How would cloning himself be brainwashing?  Wouldn't a clone of himself be able to think just as well as him?

I'm not simply referring to just biology, but also mentality.  A parent forcing a child to be just like like themselves is indeed brainwashing and not remotely loving.  Rather, parents acknowledge the diversity in their children.

1 minute ago, Lost Boy said:

So why not design a system where he is not a "Slaver", but we not fail?

Aka a system where everybody is rigged and/or brainwashed into saying "yes I'll come with you God"? 

No no.

God sakes each person "who you like to join me?" and then gives them a CHOICE.  They can say "yes" or "no".  Any system where the "no" option is removed is... frankly just dressed up slavery because people don't have choices.  

 

 

[mikbone]

God's method is tried and true.  It works.  And has for eternity.

Have faith in God and confidence in yourself.  

You can do this.  You shouted for joy at the opportunity to come to Earth during the pre- mortal existence...

 

And we don't know the fate of the Lucifer and his host.  And anyone who tells you that they do is wrong.  

But you shouldn't worry about them.  They hate you and want you to fail.  Don't listen to their lies and temptations.

 

Just my 2 cents.  

 

[Lost Boy]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

 

For Satan & his angels:  Shall God instead force them to be something they choose not to be?  They choose to be the way they are, being told full well the consequences of that choice.

For Terrestrial Kingdom folks: their eternal fate is to live forever doing what they want, happy beyond their wildest dreams, with a (limited) portion of God's light.  Hardly something to complain about, and certainly more than they deserved.  

I'm not simply referring to just biology, but also mentality.  A parent forcing a child to be just like like themselves is indeed brainwashing and not remotely loving.  Rather, parents acknowledge the diversity in their children.

Aka a system where everybody is rigged and/or brainwashed into saying "yes I'll come with you God"? 

No no.

God sakes each person "who you like to join me?" and then gives them a CHOICE.  They can say "yes" or "no".  Any system where the "no" option is removed is... frankly just dressed up slavery because people don't have choices.  

 

 

He made a system that forced them to make a decision to come or go.  What if they didn't care for either option?

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

He made a system that forced them to make a decision to come or go.  What if they didn't care for either option?

For Satan and his followers: what third option do you want-- "I'll only half go along with what your perfect wisdom and knowledge Father, cause the other half of the time I know better"?

Edited September 19, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Chilean]

1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

Have you ever stopped and contemplated why God does what he does?  Does God have a motive for what he does?  What does he get out of what he does?  Or does he get anything out of it?
 

No, I don't think I've ever thought about that. I Think many of the things  He let's happen are consequences of men's agency. So... I'm not sure if it's so much of "God's doing" but our on acts, followed by consequences.

 

1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

If he loves us, why did he let a third of the hosts of heaven follow Satan, never to be saved?

Yes, He loves us with an infinite love, He created a plan for us to return to live with him...ONLY if we wanted to, the 1/3 chose to follow Satan, even when he was going against Heavenly Father's plan.

 

1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

If God can do anything, why didn't he just make us all like him?  Just clone himself a bunch of times?

Hahaha because I'm assuming there are laws in heaven just like there are laws here on Earth. God cannot simply ignore the laws of justice, if He was to do that (which he never will) he will cease to be God.

1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

Why give us the option to fail?  Why not design a system that allows for exaltation without the chance of failure?

Heck, Jesus already paid the debt. There's no failure if you keep trying.         "Why not design a system that allows for exaltation without the chance of failure? "  Lehi said: There's has to be opposition.       Plus, winning or failing is up to ourselves. His plan is not a failure plan if we choose to obey. Everyone has the potential to succeed and become like Him.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Chilean

[mikbone]

7 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

He made a system that forced them to make a decision to come or go.  What if they didn't care for either option?

Actually there is an interpretation that there were 3 separate divisions, instead of a 1/3 part.  D&C 29:36.

I believe that we were given an opportunity and that there were 3 choices.  

1) Come to Earth with the possibility of continued progression.

2) Accept existence as a spirit and elect to discontinue progression.

3) Outright rebellion.

[goor_de]

12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

For Satan and his followers: what third option do you want-- "I'll only half go along with what your perfect wisdom and knowledge Father, cause the other half of the time I know better"?

 

the ghosts knew what to expect illness war natural disasters etc ?

Edited September 19, 2018 by goor_de

[Chilean]

4 minutes ago, mikbone said:

there is an interpretation that there were 3 separate divisions

Where did you read about 3 separate divisions? I've never heard that before. D&C says: "and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;" . I'm not sure it says what your saying. Where did you read that? I'd like to read it

[mikbone]

14 minutes ago, Chilean said:

Where did you read about 3 separate divisions? I've never heard that before. D&C says: "and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;" . I'm not sure it says what your saying. Where did you read that? I'd like to read it

I'm not saying its a well received concept or belief.  Sometimes we need to re-evaluate what we think we know.

If it weren't for Copernicus we would all probably think that the Earth was the center of the universe...

The words "third part" could have multiple meanings.  I just like the 1st part, 2nd part, 3rd part interpretation.

And I can't ever see God demanding anyone to do anything against their will.  He offers advice, recommendations, and gives us examples.  He just lets us know that there are consequences to our actions.  

[lostinwater]

2 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Have you ever stopped and contemplated why God does what he does?  Does God have a motive for what he does?  What does he get out of what he does?  Or does he get anything out of it?

If he loves us, why did he let a third of the hosts of heaven follow Satan, never to be saved?

 If God can do anything, why didn't he just make us all like him?  Just clone himself a bunch of times?

Why give us the option to fail?  Why not design a system that allows for exaltation without the chance of failure?

Good questions!

For your first query, the most satisfying answer i've found was from when Howard Storm asked Jesus why He created us.  Howard said Jesus told him something that didn't make any sense - or that Howard was not able to understand.  So Jesus came back and said that we were like flowers in God's Garden - and that God "planted" us so we could be beautiful.  i suppose that's not the most sophisticated of answers, but it was the one that has made the most sense to me.  Or i guess it was a motivation that made sense to me.  

For the second question, personally, i believe that everyone will be saved.  The person will have to want it (and i am assuming that trillions of years of pain with an exit door to the wonderful nature of God's Love will bring the person around eventually), and the road will be rockier for some than others, but i think in the end, everyone will be.  No idea on the third of the hosts of heaven, or if that is even real.  Obviously, this is not anything close to TCOJCOLDS theology. 

For the third question, that one just makes my head hurt.  How can God be our creator, our father, despite us being eternal beings that have always existed - all at once?  i guess you could say He organized us, but to your point, why in that process of organization did He not organize us the way He wanted us, rather than organizing us in an inferior way and then seeing part of His creation go to hell as a result.  Perhaps a person's essence is as much process as end result.  And maybe the development/process part of a person is so complex that not even God Himself can create it.  

The fourth way, i guess that one i can understand why neither God nor us were pro-slavery.  But i might be oversimplifying your question here.  And if so, sincere apologies.

 

i think that maybe some things were made unknowable on purpose because the thing that is desired is not knowledge (i mean, i know lots of people with knowledge in their brains that i am not all that fond of), but the process of wrestling with the unknown and actually becoming something.  There really are questions our intellect can rail against with all their might, and yet never find an answer that really makes complete sense. It's as if the world was designed to ensure that.

Like @anatess2 - i'd recommend some of Jordan B Peterson's books/thoughts.  He really does a pretty spectacular job of reasoning through these questions.  And even if you don't agree with his conclusions, the man lays out his logic really well.  It's helped me specifically realize that just because many scriptural texts simply cannot be literal, that there is a value and even a kind of abstract reality on alternate planes to mythical stories.  His 'debate' with a Sam Harris about 2 weeks in Vancouver BC is good - he lays that out there a lot, and his book Maps of Meaning is one i'm going through and finding pretty amazing.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, goor_de said:

 

there is the system, mentor for every human. a teacher this prevents wrong decisions

Even the best teachers have students that make really bad decisions.  This is clear in scripture and in everyday life.

(Bythway, welcome to the forums! @goor_de!)

[zil]

Welcome, @goor_de!

[goor_de]

11 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Even the best teachers have students that make really bad decisions.  This is clear in scripture and in everyday life.

(Bythway, welcome to the forums! @goor_de!)

ok,

I think earth life is too brutal, illness, war, natural disasters  etc

[zil]

3 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Have you ever stopped and contemplated why God does what he does?  Does God have a motive for what he does?  What does he get out of what he does?  Or does he get anything out of it?

If he loves us, why did he let a third of the hosts of heaven follow Satan, never to be saved?

If God can do anything, why didn't he just make us all like him?  Just clone himself a bunch of times?

Why give us the option to fail?  Why not design a system that allows for exaltation without the chance of failure?

IMO, before one should try to discuss the answers to these questions, one should discuss the questions themselves.  That is, we should analyze the questions and figure out if they're good questions.  What assumptions are inherent in the questions themselves?  Are those assumptions correct?  Are the questions clear, or are things missing from them?  Are the questions answerable?  Etc.

Neal A. Maxwell wrote a book called All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience.  I think it answers some of your questions (or comes close).

[Jane_Doe]

31 minutes ago, goor_de said:

ok,

I think earth life is too brutal, illness, war, natural disasters  etc

I take it you're not LDS?

[goor_de]

55 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I take it you're not LDS?

 

I am Member    himself emeritus

Edited September 19, 2018 by goor_de

[Overwatch]

I cannot guess what my Father does on His "free time" or even if He has any while a world is active. Since time pertains to mortals my mind just does not make sense of it all. I don't understand the complexity of our Family Mission and what it all entails. I do know that our Heavenly Father loves us. I know that through Christ we can be cleansed and exalted. I know we can learn the mysteries of God through the Holy Ghost. The test of mortality has been pretty crazy so far.  I am very much anticipating not feeling pain or getting sick anymore. In the meantime kisses and hugs for and from my babies, I am grateful to be a father. I imagine this feeling will only grow as I get older and my Grandbabies arrive.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Overwatch

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Have you ever stopped and contemplated why God does what he does?  Does God have a motive for what he does?  What does he get out of what he does?  Or does he get anything out of it?

If he loves us, why did he let a third of the hosts of heaven follow Satan, never to be saved?

If God can do anything, why didn't he just make us all like him?  Just clone himself a bunch of times?

Why give us the option to fail?  Why not design a system that allows for exaltation without the chance of failure?

The work and glory of G-d is the bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.  That requires that man have agency and agency requires a possibility of failure (opposition in all things).  We must be invested to become like G-d.  G-d is successful with all that follow him.

 

The Traveler