God's Motivation and other Lost Boy Questions


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10 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Have you ever stopped and contemplated why God does what he does?  Does God have a motive for what he does?  What does he get out of what he does?  Or does he get anything out of it?

If he loves us, why did he let a third of the hosts of heaven follow Satan, never to be saved?

If God can do anything, why didn't he just make us all like him?  Just clone himself a bunch of times?

Why give us the option to fail?  Why not design a system that allows for exaltation without the chance of failure?

Have you ever stopped and contemplated why God does what he does?

Yes, and I would say that anyone who comes to the knowledge of God would ask this question. We humans like to know what thoughts, ideas, principles, etc... make us tick. It would be logical then to want to know why God does what he does.

Does God have a motive for what he does? 

God is an intelligent being. All intelligent beings have motives for why they do what they do.

What does he get out of what he does? Or does he get anything out of it?

Glory upon glory, intelligence upon intelligence. As we have not come to such selfless state as God, I believe it is harder for us to understand that God doesn't care about anything in a selfish manner -- as in the natural man state of mind -- "I get mine."

God receives joy and rejoicing, sorry and pain in relation to his sons and daughters as found out with Enoch witnessing the Lord in tears. What do we receive when we are able to view our children growing up in righteousness, and what do we receive when we view them desiring a different path than righteousness.

If he loves us, why did he let a third of the hosts of heaven follow Satan, never to be saved?

Moral agency exists now as it existed then; otherwise, God would cease to be God. My allowance toward my own children when they act against my desires does in no way dictate a lack of love. The opposite is more true, it dictates my love for them.

If I were to provide my children the opportunity to receive one million dollars if they followed and honored specific predicated rules, commands, and laws, and only 4 of the six were to receive that one million dollars, have I shown a lack of love? No. Each child had the opportunity, the same opportunity, to receive one million dollars. Their decision to disobey the rules, commands, and laws predicated is more of show of their lack of love in my direction.

Satan and the third of hosts of heaven are the ones who have shown a lack of love. Our Father in heaven has remained loving.

If God can do anything, why didn't he just make us all like him?  Just clone himself a bunch of times?

I am not sure the line of thinking here. If we were just clones then we would not be "sons and daugthers" of God, we would be God the Father. Why would I want to make clones of myself when I have the ability to create children in mine own likeness? Which is more satisfying?

"If God can do anything..." questions kinda implode on themselves. Growing up my best friends asked me one time, "If God can do anything, can he make a rock he can't jump over"?

A clone of oneself would require multiple "spirit bodies" (intelligences) of oneself. We know we are intelligences that are eternal. This would imply, if God could make a clone of himself, then there would be existing intelligences the same as him, or one would have to come up with a decent theory as to how there would be multiple spirits of God the Father.

Why give us the option to fail?  Why not design a system that allows for exaltation without the chance of failure?

Same reason why teachers give us the option to fail the final test. Does a teacher love his/her students less because they have the opportunity to fail an exam? No. The option to fail, as @Traveler mentioned, "We must be invested to become like G-d." Students are more likely to fail who aren't invested in doing well, or who have not been taught.

We all have been taught. The reason for failure is that we ourselves were not invested. As the teacher loves his/her students though they might be able to fail a test, God loves us all also.

If we did not have the chance for failure then life would be as the scriptures specify -- one body. The only way we would have no chance for failure is if we remove failure. If we remove failure then we have, by default, removed the opportunity for success. If we remove one, we ultimately remove the other -- one body.

Edited by Anddenex
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Before I can provide my take on this, I need to establish some realities.

1. God cannot do anything. He cannot for example, cause matter to exist, neither can he nor did he cause existence to exist. There's also a portion of the immortal spirit, be it the material with which it is constituted, or the literal consciousness of the spirit itself, which God does not have power to create.

2. God did not always have a body of flesh and bone. There was a time when God the Father did not have a body as he does now.

 

20 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Have you ever stopped and contemplated why God does what he does?  Does God have a motive for what he does?  What does he get out of what he does?  Or does he get anything out of it?

Consider the kind of being God is. Consider the personal progression He's gone through. What kind of meaning do you think exists for an eternal being? Look at the teachings and Commandments of Jesus Christ, every one of them has to do with the spirit, the eternal part man, the conscious part. Possessions will never satisfy, unrighteous dominion over your house and fellow men will never satisfy, carnal satisfaction will never satisfy. The only thing which can satisfy is the quality of your relationships with your fellow beings, and even yourself. Love, charity, and sacrifice are what satisfy. That this is the path of happiness was not designed by any being, it is eternal. God labors and loves and suffers for his progeny because it is the good life. When you set aside everything of no worth, what remains is your fellow beings.

 

20 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

If he loves us, why did he let a third of the hosts of heaven follow Satan, never to be saved?

God removed them from where He is because Lucifer and his supporters stood in the presence of gods and angels and nevertheless defied the order of heaven. By the Law the Devil and his angels were thrust down. Spirits and intelligence have innate volition and ability to choose and decide and God respects this reality because of His love His justice. I believe Lucifer and his followers knew exactly what they were doing. We are more brave than we realize for coming to this earth.

 

20 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

If God can do anything, why didn't he just make us all like him?  Just clone himself a bunch of times?

There are some cold, hard facts pertaining to Spirits and intelligence, and one of them is we cannot become like God unless we've been through the gauntlet and have tasted the bitter so that we know to prize the sweet. Experience misery to be aware of our enjoyments. What God is is the product of reality and isn't a magical creation from nothing. 

 

20 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Why give us the option to fail?  Why not design a system that allows for exaltation without the chance of failure?

There are two things which exist. #1, The Law, and #2, the volition of Spirits. We can either choose to live by the order of Heaven and eventually be accepted therein. Or we can be barred from entering according to the Law. God did not design any system, he didn't even design failure. God gave us a Gospel and a Messiah. The Gospel contains the Law by which we are exalted or condemned to exile. What do you mean by failure? Is it exile from all kingdoms? Or is it lack of exaltation? What is just will be meted out to every man based on his choices, and only a few will be exiled forever.

Edited by LePeel
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14 hours ago, Traveler said:

The work and glory of G-d is the bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.  That requires that man have agency and agency requires a possibility of failure (opposition in all things).  We must be invested to become like G-d.  G-d is successful with all that follow him.

 

The Traveler

 

 

 

Do not you think the gray on earth is exaggerated ?  (war, disease, natural disasters, poison animals, etc)

I think your view is too positive

maybe satan has understood what the plan is 

Edited by goor_de
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18 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Have you ever stopped and contemplated why God does what he does?  Does God have a motive for what he does?  What does he get out of what he does?  Or does he get anything out of it?

If he loves us, why did he let a third of the hosts of heaven follow Satan, never to be saved?

If God can do anything, why didn't he just make us all like him?  Just clone himself a bunch of times?

Why give us the option to fail?  Why not design a system that allows for exaltation without the chance of failure?

A fulness of agency and divine love are the same thing. Any system that maximizes them is created (rather organized and governed) by Someone possessing the same attributes. God possesses a fulness of agency and divine love.

My inclination is that any intelligence unprepared to participate in the Grand Council would not yet advance into the “first estate,” but remain in a co-eternal sphere with God until he was able to see and want something more.

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6 hours ago, LePeel said:

 

 

There are some cold, hard facts pertaining to Spirits and intelligence, and one of them is we cannot become like God unless we've been through the gauntlet and have tasted the bitter so that we know to prize the sweet. Experience misery to be aware of our enjoyments. What God is is the product of reality and isn't magical creation from nothing. 

 

 

 

what about people who die in childhood? what about people who never war, hunger, natural disasters experienced

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19 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

If he loves us, why did he let a third of the hosts of heaven follow Satan, never to be saved?

"Let"?

19 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

If God can do anything, why didn't he just make us all like him?  Just clone himself a bunch of times?

"If"

19 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Why give us the option to fail?  Why not design a system that allows for exaltation without the chance of failure?

"give"

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35 minutes ago, goor_de said:

 

what about people who die in childhood? what about people who never war, hunger, natural disasters experienced

I don't know the state of people who die in childhood as far as their understanding goes. I've never been in war, I've never truly hungered, and I've never had my home destroyed by nature. But I am nevertheless able to comprehend the difference between happy and sad, misery and joy.

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Just now, LePeel said:

I don't know the state of people who die in childhood as far as their understanding goes. I've never been in war, I've never truly hungered, and I've never had my home destroyed by nature. But I am nevertheless able to comprehend the difference between happy and sad, misery and joy.

Having myself lived through a real-life nightmare, I'll testify it does indeed teach a deeper depth of happiness/sadness, misery/joy, and gratitude for the Savior. 

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3 minutes ago, goor_de said:

 

the problem is that does not help me now

Are you sure of that?  Or is the help simply not coming in the form you ask?

Again, I've lived through nightmares myself.  I know that we usually want help in a certain way, and that's not always the way God provides.

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15 minutes ago, LePeel said:

I don't know the state of people who die in childhood as far as their understanding goes. I've never been in war, I've never truly hungered, and I've never had my home destroyed by nature. But I am nevertheless able to comprehend the difference between happy and sad, misery and joy.

 

the question is why is there disease, hunger, natural disasters, poisonous animals if it is not necessary

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3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Are you sure of that?  Or is the help simply not coming in the form you ask?

Again, I've lived through nightmares myself.  I know that we usually want help in a certain way, and that's not always the way God provides.

who can be sure

if

 "I know that we usually want help in a certain way, and that's not always the way God provides":confused:

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1 minute ago, goor_de said:

who can be sure

if

 "I know that we usually want help in a certain way, and that's not always the way God provides":confused:

@goor_de, I'm gathering you've recently been through a hard time that was not your fault.  My heart goes out to you in that regard.  Life can suck at points.    But may i suggest that God has not remotely abandoned you, and is always there to lift you.  Even if it's not in the way you think He 'should' help you, after all God (like every good parent) is not a vending machine.  

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6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

@goor_de, I'm gathering you've recently been through a hard time that was not your fault.  My heart goes out to you in that regard.  Life can suck at points.    But may i suggest that God has not remotely abandoned you, and is always there to lift you.  Even if it's not in the way you think He 'should' help you, after all God (like every good parent) is not a vending machine.  

 

o, thank you

I do not ask about me

I'm interested in what you mean

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1 minute ago, goor_de said:

 

o, thank you

I do not ask about me

I'm interested in what you mean

God is not a vending machine.  He gives as He sees best fit, not how we want.

For example: a person's house gets destroyed in a hurricane.  Understandably a hard time for that person, especially in the likely event they lost all the material processions they collected over the years.   It's quite natural for the person to want to say "God, give me my house and stuff back!".  That's just a natural knee-jerk reaction.  But what if no new house magically appears, and instead they spend years living in MIL's basement scraping money to buy a new house-- does that mean God abandoned the person?  No.  Rather, God can give other ways-- they had housing, their lives, the opportunity to start over and focus on the most important, and God always there to provide strength and comfort.   They were never abandoned, even if God (who's not a vending machine) didn't just magically provide them with a new house and new stuff right away.  

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1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

God is not a vending machine.  He gives as He sees best fit, not how we want.

For example: a person's house gets destroyed in a hurricane.  Understandably a hard time for that person, especially in the likely event they lost all the material processions they collected over the years.   It's quite natural for the person to want to say "God, give me my house and stuff back!".  That's just a natural knee-jerk reaction.  But what if no new house magically appears, and instead they spend years living in MIL's basement scraping money to buy a new house-- does that mean God abandoned the person?  No.  Rather, God can give other ways-- they had housing, their lives, the opportunity to start over and focus on the most important, and God always there to provide strength and comfort.   They were never abandoned, even if God (who's not a vending machine) didn't just magically provide them with a new house and new stuff right away.  

 

I do not see any sense in destroying the question is question Can not god work without hurikan?

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3 minutes ago, goor_de said:

 

OK:cool:

Question re

I do not see any sense in destroying

why should he do it

Going to be blunt here: in God's big picture, a person's house on this earth is worth jack.  He's got a much better one for you later.  Learning a lesson about humility and looking beyond our earthly junk-- now THAT is valuable.  

Do we small minded children struggle to see that?  Totally.   

Edited by Jane_Doe
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55 minutes ago, goor_de said:

the question is why is there disease, hunger, natural disasters, poisonous animals if it is not necessary

Paine, Thomas

The American Crisis

The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.  What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. 

 

Although God told Adam that he would work and eat in sorrow all the days of his life, sorrow was not the only feeling or emotion that Adam experienced. Adam received joy and satisfaction as He began to provide for his family. Yes, the fruit in the garden was free, easily accessible, and sweet, but there was no sense of accomplishment. Prior to the fall, Adam had no way to really appreciate the paradisiacal glory of the Garden of Eden, it was all he knew. Sure, when Adam ate his first crude loaf of bread, he realized that it was a poor substitute for Godly sustenance. But, hunger is the best seasoning.   Work causes sorrow just as much as exercise causes pain, or humility leads to weakness. 

Edited by mikbone
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