Adam, Eve, and the Holy Ghost


theplains
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I was wondering if you could help me with this passage.

Page 31 of Gospel Principles says, "Because of the witness of the Holy Ghost to Eve, she said, 
“Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known 
good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all 
the obedient
” (Moses 5:11).

Was this also true for Heavenly Mother when she was just a woman? If yes, was it another Holy Ghost 
who gave her a witness?
 
Didn't Eve already know before the Holy Ghost witnessed to her that they would eventually have 
seed when God told them to be fruitful and multiply before the Fall or was she already doubting 
God after hearing that commandment?

Seeing that the witness of having children was only given to Eve, when did Adam first realize he 
would have children?  Or did he really believe God when He commanded him to be fruitful and
multiply?

Thanks,
Jim

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8 minutes ago, theplains said:

I was wondering if you could help me with this passage.

No, you're not wondering anything.  You are here proselytizing a faith in which salvation is dependent on man's ability to pass a theology test.  Such is not remotely Biblical.  

Please instead be honest and abide by the Two Great Commandments.

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Seriously, hasn't the dishonest antiMormon worn out his welcome here?

Few here mind participation by those of other religious persuasions. (Witness PC.) But the lying wolves who so clumsily attempt to wear sheep's clothing are another matter. A laughing matter at times, perhaps, but individuals who have no business on this site.

My opinion, FWIW.

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13 minutes ago, Vort said:

Seriously, hasn't the dishonest antiMormon worn out his welcome here?

Few here mind participation by those of other religious persuasions. (Witness PC.) But the lying wolves who so clumsily attempt to wear sheep's clothing are another matter.

Speaking my own thoughts: I have zero problem with non-LDS folks.  In fact, I'm married to an Evangelical and 90% of my friends are non-LDS.  I regularly visit non-LDS churches and listen to non-LDS sermons, just because I enjoy very much enjoy the experience. I work on a college campus and we have random preachers on the side walk, and I very much enjoy talking to them.    One thing I actually love about this forum is how welcoming we are of non-LDS folks and apply the same rules to everyone.  


What I don't enjoy are people who lie, especially while supposedly going about God's work.  The other thing that i don't enjoy are hypocrites-- people who say one thing with their mouth, but rest of them testifies otherwise.  For example, claiming that they believe salvation comes only through Christ, but actions testifying they believe it's through passing a theology test.

 

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11 hours ago, theplains said:

I was wondering if you could help me with this passage.

Page 31 of Gospel Principles says, "Because of the witness of the Holy Ghost to Eve, she said, 
“Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known 
good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all 
the obedient
” (Moses 5:11).

Was this also true for Heavenly Mother when she was just a woman? If yes, was it another Holy Ghost 
who gave her a witness?
 
Didn't Eve already know before the Holy Ghost witnessed to her that they would eventually have 
seed when God told them to be fruitful and multiply before the Fall or was she already doubting 
God after hearing that commandment?

Seeing that the witness of having children was only given to Eve, when did Adam first realize he 
would have children?  Or did he really believe God when He commanded him to be fruitful and
multiply?

Thanks,
Jim

Was this also true for Heavenly Mother when she was just a woman? If yes, was it another Holy Ghost who gave her a witness?

The only thing revealed about Heavenly Mother is that she exists, any other answer would be speculation. In light of this, we don't know, nothing has been revealed.

Didn't Eve already know before the Holy Ghost witnessed to her that they would eventually have seed when God told them to be fruitful and multiply before the Fall or was she already doubting God after hearing that commandment?

Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence, as has been discussed on other threads. I am more confused why you consider rephrasing a question is somehow asking a different question, and a question that has already been answered.

Seeing that the witness of having children was only given to Eve, when did Adam first realize he would have children?  Or did he really believe God when He commanded him to be fruitful and multiply?

The witness of having children only given to Eve isn't doctrinal, it is an assumption. How long were Adam and Eve in the garden, and if they were in the garden more than 2 years why were there no children? Did Adam and Eve practice birth control? Do we even know if they were intimate in the garden? If so, and they were in the garden more than two years why no children?

Or let me ask a different variety of questions, similar to questions you like to ask. Since we know Adam and Eve were in the garden, why didn't they have any seed (children)? Since Adam and Eve had perfect bodies, as created by God before the fall, why did their bodies not produce any children. Was Adam impotent or Eve infertile since we have no children in the garden? Was Adam and Eve only in the garden for one day, two days, three days, four days....366 days, 377 days, 378 days....1000 days, 1001 days ... let's make it easier, since we know they were there for more than 280 days (enough to conceive and have a baby with perfect bodies) why were there no children? Did Adam really believe God, or do you think Adam might have been timid with Eve, and that is the reason there were no babies (they never were intimate)? Adam and Eve being in a state of innocence, did they not have a proper sex education course in order to know how to create a baby? Should have Adam asked more questions pertaining to Eve's gender differences? We have no questions about intimacy in the Bible, and we know there were no children in the garden, so Adam and Eve weren't properly taught about the birds and the bees, if not, why not?

I am sure Adam believed God, as to his knowledge of what he believed that is unknown.

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14 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

No, you're not wondering anything.  You are here proselytizing a faith in which salvation is dependent on man's ability to pass a theology test.  Such is not remotely Biblical.  

They're all wrong.

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2 hours ago, zil said:

How do we know that?

We don't, that was the point of that statement. I as hoping this would provide the implication of my questions in my response, "let me ask a different variety of questions, similar to questions you like to ask."

theplains likes to "assume" a lot in all his questions, particularly things that aren't specified in scripture for example the following opening statement to his question, "Seeing that the witness of having children was only given to Eve," is not scriptural. I have never read anything stating that Eve only was given witness.

So I began asking questions with a lot of assumptions from scripture for him to answer. :)

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

We don't, that was the point of that statement. I as hoping this would provide the implication of my questions in my response, "let me ask a different variety of questions, similar to questions you like to ask."

Got it. Your other hypothetical questions were clearly identified as such, but that bit was too "this is a fact"y, so I wanted to be sure. :)

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21 hours ago, theplains said:

I was wondering if you could help me with this passage.

Page 31 of Gospel Principles says, "Because of the witness of the Holy Ghost to Eve, she said, 
“Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known 
good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all 
the obedient
” (Moses 5:11).

Was this also true for Heavenly Mother when she was just a woman? If yes, was it another Holy Ghost 
who gave her a witness?
 
Didn't Eve already know before the Holy Ghost witnessed to her that they would eventually have 
seed when God told them to be fruitful and multiply before the Fall or was she already doubting 
God after hearing that commandment?

Seeing that the witness of having children was only given to Eve, when did Adam first realize he 
would have children?  Or did he really believe God when He commanded him to be fruitful and
multiply?

Thanks,
Jim

The Lord told Moses, “But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you.” (1:35). So I'm not sure where from  the Book of Moses you're getting the idea of Heavenly Mother. I cannot speculate on Heavenly Mother in this regard, but my take is that all men and women will come to the same realization as Eve: that without Adam and Eve’s transgression, we would not be here to receive the blessings of the Father’s plan of salvation, or the plan of happiness.

Eve is integrating the several concepts of the Father’s plan of salvation, which she would not otherwise have been able to do: having seed, knowing good and evil, and knowing the joy of their redemption (their deliverance by Christ’s Atonement), and the eternal life which God gives unto all the obedient through grace). We can know things on different levels and in different contexts; this expression on her part shows her spiritual maturation, a spiritual rebirth in a sense. A child knows she can have children; an adult also knows she can have children; a mother knows she can have children, but each with a different sense of understanding, significance and meaning.

Adam knew the same things as Eve (see 5: 9, 10), and she as he (see 5: 4, 5), so this witness was not given only to him (see 5:12; 6: 58 - 62). The both experienced grace, an unmerited gift from God, and this is the source of their joy.

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On 9/23/2018 at 4:14 AM, Anddenex said:

Or let me ask a different variety of questions, similar to questions you like to ask. Since we know Adam and Eve were in the garden, why didn't they have any seed (children)? Since Adam and Eve had perfect bodies, as created by God before the fall, why did their bodies not produce any children. Was Adam impotent or Eve infertile since we have no children in the garden? Was Adam and Eve only in the garden for one day, two days, three days, four days....366 days, 377 days, 378 days....1000 days, 1001 days ... let's make it easier, since we know they were there for more than 280 days (enough to conceive and have a baby with perfect bodies) why were there no children? Did Adam really believe God, or do you think Adam might have been timid with Eve, and that is the reason there were no babies (they never were intimate)? Adam and Eve being in a state of innocence, did they not have a proper sex education course in order to know how to create a baby? Should have Adam asked more questions pertaining to Eve's gender differences? We have no questions about intimacy in the Bible, and we know there were no children in the garden, so Adam and Eve weren't properly taught about the birds and the bees, if not, why not?

I am sure Adam believed God, as to his knowledge of what he believed that is unknown.

It's hard to say that when God told them to procreate they started to have sexual intimacy or whether they abstained from having
physical relations with each other.  Who knows. Cain may have even been conceived already before their expulsion.
But I think it was their realization that they were mortal that pushed them to act sooner before they died.

I believe that since the same commandment was given to the animals, they had the current ability to procreate, not a future potential.

We don't know how long they remained in the Garden before being expelled, but I believe they both experienced joy with God's creation
and in their worship of Him.

God told them to be fruitful and multiple so I believe they were created with the ability and knowledge to procreate. Same for the
animals. Otherwise it would be a useless commandment for Adam and Eve, followed by questions of "What? I don't understand...
what do you mean?", etc.   That would be like saying they didn't understand how to eat fruit from the allowed trees or what 'eat'
meant. Or 'what do you mean I will die if I eat from the forbidden tree?"

It all depends on how much knowledge and ability you believe God created Adam and Eve with.

Thanks,
Jim

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On 9/24/2018 at 5:17 PM, theplains said:

It's hard to say that when God told them to procreate they started to have sexual intimacy or whether they abstained from having physical relations with each other.  Who knows. Cain may have even been conceived already before their expulsion. But I think it was their realization that they were mortal that pushed them to act sooner before they died.

I believe that since the same commandment was given to the animals, they had the current ability to procreate, not a future potential.

We don't know how long they remained in the Garden before being expelled, but I believe they both experienced joy with God's creation and in their worship of Him.

God told them to be fruitful and multiple so I believe they were created with the ability and knowledge to procreate. Same for the animals. Otherwise it would be a useless commandment for Adam and Eve, followed by questions of "What? I don't understand... what do you mean?", etc.   That would be like saying they didn't understand how to eat fruit from the allowed trees or what 'eat' meant. Or 'what do you mean I will die if I eat from the forbidden tree?"

It all depends on how much knowledge and ability you believe God created Adam and Eve with.

Thanks,
Jim

Let's go from scripture, in Genesis 4 we are informed "And Adam knew Eve his wife...," which is Biblical letting us know that Adam and Eve were sexually intimate, and thus Cain was conceived. In light of this, we know from Genesis Cain wasn't conceived while they were in the garden, as chapter 4 is when they were cast out.

If Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth why did they wait to know each other until they were cast out? Or better said, why did they not keep the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth when they could have all along while they were in the garden? The assumption you provide is that mortality pushed them to "know each other" because being immortal delays sexual intimacy.

It was that ah-ha moment where Adam turned to Eve and said, "Oh crap, we should be intimate now and have children and keep the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth." When you were married did you put off having sexual relations, or did you immediately begin knowing each other? (that is a personal question, introspective in relation to your thought of mortality pushing them to have children) I would also add the thought sexual intimacy isn't just for having children. It is also one of the greatest manifestations of love in marriage. If they were intimate then they would have had children in the garden, because their bodies were perfect -- there would have been no issue with infertility.

We know Adam and Eve knew how to eat as they partook of the fruit of the tree. The innocence of children is very intriguing, as a father I have found it surprising that even though I have taught my children a concept, or told them to do something, how they did not exactly know what I meant, but they knew I commanded or instructed them not to do something.

Here is an example I once read  of a father and their child. The father looked outside and saw his child crossing the street. He took off outside, ran to his child, grabbed his child bring his child back to the curb and said, "I thought I told you not to step off the curb"! The child's response, "What is a curb"?

Adam and Eve were created with the same knowledge we are created with -- a blank slate -- as they didn't know anything. We also know from scripture they were in a state of innocence. I am not sure I have ever met an adult who I would describe as being in a state of innocence, but I know many children whose knowledge and understanding of concepts and what is taught who are in a state of innocence.

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12 minutes ago, bytebear said:

Glaubst du, dass Gott Welten ohne Ende geschaffen hat? Wenn ja, wie hat Gott dann jede Welt bevölkert? Wie viele Eves gibt es? Und was ist anzunehmen, dass die himmlische Mutter die erste ihres Planeten war? Sie könnte sehr wohl die Maria oder die Ruth gewesen sein. Viele Annahmen über den Glauben der Mormonen (und nicht Mormonen).

since I believe brygham yuong.

every earth has its own mother and father and redeemer.

b.young assumes that life can only be created by living

he does not know how the spirit comes to people

In any case, spirits can not be created or destroyed.

that is the whole secret

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On 9/26/2018 at 3:52 PM, Anddenex said:

Let's go from scripture, in Genesis 4 we are informed "And Adam knew Eve his wife...," which is Biblical letting us know that Adam and Eve were sexually intimate, and thus Cain was conceived. In light of this, we know from Genesis Cain wasn't conceived while they were in the garden, as chapter 4 is when they were cast out.

Sounds reasonable.   So you believe Cain was the first born son?


If Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth why did they wait to know each other until they were cast out?

Did they understand what God told them?
 

Or better said, why did they not keep the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth when they could have all along while they were in the garden? The assumption you provide is that mortality pushed them to "know each other" because being immortal delays sexual intimacy.

Being immortal delays sexual intimacy?  Did it delay sexual intimacy with Heavenly Father and Mother
as it is believed they had spirit children after they became immortal, exalted beings.


It was that ah-ha moment where Adam turned to Eve and said, "Oh crap, we should be intimate now and have children and keep the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth." When you were married did you put off having sexual relations, or did you immediately begin knowing each other? (that is a personal question, introspective in relation to your thought of mortality pushing them to have children) I would also add the thought sexual intimacy isn't just for having children. It is also one of the greatest manifestations of love in marriage. If they were intimate then they would have had children in the garden, because their bodies were perfect -- there would have been no issue with infertility.

Personal question, but no... not immediately :-)

Were Adam and Eve fertile or infertile when they were created?


We know Adam and Eve knew how to eat as they partook of the fruit of the tree. The innocence of children is very intriguing, as a father I have found it surprising that even though I have taught my children a concept, or told them to do something, how they did not exactly know what I meant, but they knew I commanded or instructed them not to do something.

How did they know how to eat?  Did they have to learn by observation or did they already have that knowledge
and ability?


Here is an example I once read  of a father and their child. The father looked outside and saw his child crossing the street. He took off outside, ran to his child, grabbed his child bring his child back to the curb and said, "I thought I told you not to step off the curb"! The child's response, "What is a curb"?

Same question as above. Did Adam and Eve learn to eat and have sexual relations by observation or by God's
built in knowledge?

Adam and Eve were created with the same knowledge we are created with -- a blank slate -- as they didn't know anything. We also know from scripture they were in a state of innocence.

Did Adam and Eve know how to speak to each other with knowledgable/meaningful words or did they speak
as children speaking gibberish until they learned the language?   When God told them to eat from any tree
except one tree, did they have knowledge of what 'eating' and 'trees' meant?

When I hear the phrase 'someone having knowledge as a blank slate', I think of someone without the ability to
think intelligently.

So when you said they were created with a blank slate, how were they able to perform any of their functions,
conversations, in the Garden?

When they ate from the forbidden tree (referred to as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), do you believe
they gained the knowledge of how to make fig leaf aprons or did they have to be schooled? 

Thanks,
Jim

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3 hours ago, theplains said:

Sounds reasonable.   So you believe Cain was the first born son?

That is a great question, if I solely use Genesis then the answer would be Yes. This is what I would accept; however, additional scripture provides the following in Moses chapter 5: 2-3:

"And Adam knew his wife, and she bare unto him sons and daughters, and they began to multiply and to replenish the earth. And from that time forth, the sons and daughters of Adam began to divide two and two in the land, and to till the land, and to tend flocks, and they also begat sons and daughters."

This chapter later talks about Cain and Able. In my personal opinion I believe Cain was not the first son. There were other sons and daughters before Cain.

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Did they understand what God told them?

We do not have any information as to the level of what they understood in any given direction from the Father. The only thing we know is they were in a state of innocence and what has already been mentioned regarding Eve's statement after they partook of the fruit.

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Being immortal delays sexual intimacy?  Did it delay sexual intimacy with Heavenly Father and Mother
as it is believed they had spirit children after they became immortal, exalted beings.

My apologies, I thought this was clear but your opening question. My answer was due to the following response you provided, "But I think it was their realization that they were mortal that pushed them to act sooner before they died." (highlighted portion)

Thus my statement, "The assumption you provide is that mortality pushed them to "know each other" because being immortal delays sexual intimacy."

We know nothing about Heavenly Father and Mother's relationship sexually. All would be speculation. I know I have my personal opinions on the matter, but they are just that.

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Personal question, but no... not immediately 🙂

Were Adam and Eve fertile or infertile when they were created?

We know their bodies were perfect, so if they had a perfect body I would specify they were fertile.

3 hours ago, theplains said:

How did they know how to eat?  Did they have to learn by observation or did they already have that knowledge
and ability?

I would say eating is more natural than intimacy. Babies do not have any knowledge of how to eat, but they have reflexes that make eating possible despite their blank slate. The scriptures do not highlight how they knew, or how they were taught. We know Adam and Eve knew how to eat. That is sufficient for me.

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Same question as above. Did Adam and Eve learn to eat and have sexual relations by observation or by God's
built in knowledge?

I am not sue what you mean by "by God's built in knowledge." There were no other humans for them to observe eating. The Father may have taken a piece of fruit and ate it in front of them. We have record of Jesus eating something after he was resurrected, so it could be plausible God showed them how to eat by eating a piece of fruit himself.

As by observation for sexual intimacy. I would say, no. Would you teach your children by observation sexual intimacy? I do not think you would, and I know my children have not learned sexual intimacy by observation, and they never will. Fortunately also, unlike one of my friends, I never observed this act either from my parents by opening the door to their bedroom when they thought he was outside playing and would be there for a longer period of time. Awkward!

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Did Adam and Eve know how to speak to each other with knowledgable/meaningful words or did they speak
as children speaking gibberish until they learned the language?   When God told them to eat from any tree
except one tree, did they have knowledge of what 'eating' and 'trees' meant?

I am sure Adam and Eve didn't speak gibberish. We are informed they spoke the Adamic language, which is a more pure language. I would assume this is the language spoken before the tower of Babel. Adam and Eve were in adult form, not toddlers. Their vocal cords would have been fully developed.

We do not know their knowledge, but we do know they ate and knew how to eat. I assume God pointed to a tree when he said you can eat of the fruit of any tree. That right there is as good as knowledge as one needs to know what a tree is.

I would assume Adam and Eve learned the name "animal" in their language the moment God said he could name the animals. Adam could have even asked God, "What is an animal"? And then named them because he now knew what an animal was.

3 hours ago, theplains said:

When I hear the phrase 'someone having knowledge as a blank slate', I think of someone without the ability to
think intelligently.

We think differently. The lack of knowledge (knowing nothing) doesn't mean a person doesn't have the capacity and ability to think intelligently. It simply means they need opportunity to learn. These aren't mutually exclusive.

We have a lot of scientific films that I enjoy watching. I watched one where humans had progressed to a state of no longer having children themselves, they would incubate humans up until adult age. This means by the time they are brought into life, do you think they did not have the ability or capability to think intelligently? They would have a blank slate, with a human brain that can think intelligently. I don't see it any different than with Adam and Eve. They were adult humans, with adult brains, who could think and act intelligently. They were also instructed by the Father. We do not know much of the instruction though, and what we do have is a very small percentage of everything that happened to them while they were in the garden of Eden.

3 hours ago, theplains said:

So when you said they were created with a blank slate, how were they able to perform any of their functions, conversations, in the Garden?

Adam and Eve received instruction from the Father.

3 hours ago, theplains said:

When they ate from the forbidden tree (referred to as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), do you believe they gained the knowledge of how to make fig leaf aprons or did they have to be schooled? 

Thanks,
Jim

The tree of knowledge of good and evil provided them an understanding that they did not have at that time. As pertaining to fig leaves and their nakedness, I find the wording of scripture insightful to this discussion after they immediately partook of the fruit mentioned, "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

It wasn't until they partook of the fruit that they both knew they were naked! Upon knowing their nakedness they sewed fig leaves. In this case, I can see at least two possibilities:

1) They had previous experience of sewing. Sorry I misspoke, Eve knew how to sew because men don't sew. 😁

2) As they are intelligent beings, they knew they were naked and began thinking best ways of covering their nakedness and then did what they thought worked best.

We can think of other possibilities, but these suffice.

Needless to say, this statement makes it quite clear that Adam and Eve's knowledge and understanding were not perfect, nor was it to the level of having a doctorate. I mean, they did not recognize their nakedness until they partook.

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On 9/26/2018 at 3:01 PM, goor_de said:

brygham yuong.

Sounds more like an Asian Moses than an American Moses 😜 (sometimes typos are fun, my sister wrote a report on me in high school and all throughout I was touted as being very involved in and excelling at marital arts instead of martial arts) 

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9 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

Sounds more like an Asian Moses than an American Moses 😜 (sometimes typos are fun, my sister wrote a report on me in high school and all throughout I was touted as being very involved in and excelling at marital arts instead of martial arts) 

ok,brigham young,I hope he does not excommunicate me now:)

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On 9/29/2018 at 5:23 PM, Anddenex said:

<snip>

We can think of other possibilities, but these suffice.

Needless to say, this statement makes it quite clear that Adam and Eve's knowledge and understanding were not perfect, nor was it to the level of having a doctorate. I mean, they did not recognize their nakedness until they partook.

Thanks.  I agree with you.  Some things are open to speculative and/or conclusive statements about these
possibilities if I understood you correctly.

Jim

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