Why Is There an Upset about Polytheism?


MaryJehanne
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This is probably a bit of an unusual question, but...

I've wondered, since some of the earliest encounters I've had in this topic with Latter-Day Saint believers, why the identity of "polytheism" is shied away from. In debates and arguments online, I see Latter-Day Saints being angry and upset at being identified as polytheistic, while I'm sitting there thinking, but why is that a problem? If that's what you believe, shouldn't you love it and want people to know about it? Shouldn't they just tell the person they're debating that that's not a problem for them and that, yeah, that's what they think?

I even see Latter-Day Saints who begrudgingly accept that they're not polytheistic, but henotheistic... which is polytheism, just a specific type of polytheism. (polytheism doesn't require that you worship other gods, just that you believe there are other gods)

I'm monotheistic, and I love my monotheism. But, I would only imagine that if I were polytheistic, if I really thought that was the truth and the good, that I wouldn't push away the label, be ashamed of it, or reject it, but embrace it.

Is this a universal thing in Latter-Day Saint circles? Why does it happen? How do you react to and respond to people who say that Latter-Day Saints are polytheistic... and why?

Is there something I haven't taken into the equation?

 

Thank you, guys! And God bless. :)

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24 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

This is probably a bit of an unusual question, but...

I've wondered, since some of the earliest encounters I've had in this topic with Latter-Day Saint believers, why the identity of "polytheism" is shied away from. In debates and arguments online, I see Latter-Day Saints being angry and upset at being identified as polytheistic, while I'm sitting there thinking, but why is that a problem? If that's what you believe, shouldn't you love it and want people to know about it? Shouldn't they just tell the person they're debating that that's not a problem for them and that, yeah, that's what they think?

I even see Latter-Day Saints who begrudgingly accept that they're not polytheistic, but henotheistic... which is polytheism, just a specific type of polytheism. (polytheism doesn't require that you worship other gods, just that you believe there are other gods)

I'm monotheistic, and I love my monotheism. But, I would only imagine that if I were polytheistic, if I really thought that was the truth and the good, that I wouldn't push away the label, be ashamed of it, or reject it, but embrace it.

Is this a universal thing in Latter-Day Saint circles? Why does it happen? How do you react to and respond to people who say that Latter-Day Saints are polytheistic... and why?

Is there something I haven't taken into the equation?

 

Thank you, guys! And God bless. :)

Just a basic definition from Google;

Polytheism:

  1. the doctrine of or belief in more thanone god or in many gods.

Our doctrine states that we can become like our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. With that comes the assumption that there are others already like him. The assumptions begins to look like church doctrine when you take in account church backed quotes like 

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did!” - Joseph Smith

“As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” - Lorenzo Snow

If one says we are polytheistic, there must also be a disclaimer saying we are like no other polytheistic religion ever before. We “believe” that there are other “God’s” but none of them have any effect on us and it would mean eternal damnation if we were to worship some other god that may or may not be there. And such gods, should they exist, would find it reprehensible to be worshiped by us as they are not our God. Heavenly Father is our God. There one could argue “henotheism”

But I do not for a second argue that we are polytheistic or henotheistic. The church itself makes no such claim to even the least degree.

Another issue with this stance (and this is why your probably got backlash) is because polytheism has a negative  connotation . Much like the word “cult”, the idea is much more menacing than the definition. In reality, all Christians, be them in a denomination or not, are a part of a cult. The Democratic Party is a cult as is the Republican Party. The KKK and Jones Town were/are a cults as is your local high school drama club. But because we don’t call you drama club a cult, nor do we call the Presbyterian Church a cult. Why? Because the Connotation is awful.

The idea that there are potentially other God’s out there ruling their own corner of the universe have absolutely no effect on our faith and even the slightest investigation of such an idea would distract us from what really matters. Things like faith, hope, charity, repentance, forgiveness, Jesus Christ.

Whether I believe in other Gods or not is purely a matter of philosophy and has nothing to do with my eventual exaltation and eternal life. I can deny their existence all my life and find out they are there and be just as saved as the person that believes they are there and finds out they are not. There is really no point to figuring this out or not.

Edited by Fether
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13 minutes ago, Fether said:

Just a basic definition from Google;

 

Whether I believe in other Gods or not is purely a matter of philosophy and has nothing to do with my eventual exaltation and eternal life. I can deny their existence all my life and find out they are there and be just as saved as the person that believes they are there and finds out they are not. There is really no point to figuring this out or not.

for a universally honored, like me, that makes sense.
I want to know everything, so that I can all know.

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35 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

...I see Latter-Day Saints being angry and upset at being identified as polytheistic, while I'm sitting there thinking, but why is that a problem?...

I even see Latter-Day Saints who begrudgingly accept that they're not polytheistic, but henotheistic... which is polytheism, just a specific type of polytheism. (polytheism doesn't require that you worship other gods, just that you believe there are other gods)

...

Is there something I haven't taken into the equation?

 

Thank you, guys! And God bless. :)

One of the core tenets of "traditional Christianity" (which essentially can be classified as Catholicism + Protestantism) is the Trinity. Trinitarian Christianity is, by definition, monotheistic.  

Mormons have long be accused of not being "true" Christians, and that is based almost entirely on Mormon theology not fitting in to Trinitarian Christianity.  If you operate on the assumption that Christian is fully synonymous with Trinitarian, then by definition, Mormonism is not Christian.  

I find most people aren't aware of those nuances. Whenever I've explained it to anyone who wasn't trying to grind an axe (Mormon or not), the response has been universally, "well that's a stupid reason not to call Mormons Christian."

In a similar vein, acknowledging any kind of polytheism or henotheism automatically disqualifies Mormonism from being Christian to any Trinitarian Christian.  Which is why a lot of Mormons resist the labels...they want to fit in with the Christian label, without understanding that most of the world has a different definition of "Christian."

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7 minutes ago, Fether said:

Just a basic definition from Google;

Polytheism:

  1. the doctrine of or belief in more thanone god or in many gods.

Our doctrine states that we can become like our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. With that comes the assumption that there are others already like him. The assumptions begins to look like church doctrine when you take in account church backed quotes like 

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did!” - Joseph Smith

“As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” - Lorenzo Snow

If one says we are polytheistic, there must also be a disclaimer saying we are like no other polytheistic religion ever before. We “believe” that there are other “God’s” but none of them have any effect on us and it would mean eternal damnation if we were to worship some other god that may or may not be there. And such gods, should they exist, would find it reprehensible to be worshiped by us as they are not our God. Heavenly Father is our God. There one could argue “henotheism”

But I do not for a second argue that we are polytheistic or henotheistic. The church itself makes no such claim to even the least degree.

Another issue with this stance (and this is why your probably got backlash) is because polytheism has a negative  connotation . Much like the word “cult”, the idea is much more menacing than the definition. In reality, all Christians, be them in a denomination or not, are a part of a cult. The Democratic Party is a cult as is the Republican Party. The KKK and Jones Town were/are a cults as is your local high school drama club. But because we don’t call you drama club a cult, nor do we call the Presbyterian Church a cult. Why? Because the Connotation is awful.

The idea that there are potentially other God’s out there ruling their own corner of the universe have absolutely no effect on our faith and even the slightest investigation of such an idea would distract us from what really matters. Things like faith, hope, charity, repentance, forgiveness, Jesus Christ.

Whether I believe in other Gods or not is purely a matter of philosophy and has nothing to do with my eventual exaltation and eternal life. I can deny their existence all my life and find out they are there and be just as saved as the person that believes they are there and finds out they are not. There is really no point to figuring this out or not.

Just to specify, I haven't gotten any backlash! I've never mentioned this in conversation with an LDS member before. I just watch other people's conversations. :)

Yes, there is the original definition of cult that just means "a following." I have no problem with that! There's another definition of cult, a "brainwashing cult" that seeks to control and isolate its members, usually under a dictatorship-type structure that smothers free thinking and questioning. That's the more commonly known definition.

So, this is the standard Latter-Day Saint stance. Then, from what you've said, the answer is, the LDS don't care either way, and would rather not admit the label, even if it were true, for fear of looking bad?

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34 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

I've wondered, since some of the earliest encounters I've had in this topic with Latter-Day Saint believers, why the identity of "polytheism" is shied away from.  In debates and arguments online, I see Latter-Day Saints being angry and upset at being identified as polytheistic, while I'm sitting there thinking, but why is that a problem? If that's what you believe, shouldn't you love it and want people to know about it? Shouldn't they just tell the person they're debating that that's not a problem for them and that, yeah, that's what they think?

We don't like to be called that for the exact same reason you would be offended for being labeled a polytheist: cause it's GROSSLY inaccurate.  

Rather, we both believe in ONE God.  Three divine persons, but ONE God.  

34 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

I even see Latter-Day Saints who begrudgingly accept that they're not polytheistic, but henotheistic... which is polytheism, just a specific type of polytheism. (polytheism doesn't require that you worship other gods, just that you believe there are other gods)

Also GROSSLY inaccurate.   Again, ONE God.  Different persons, ONE God.

34 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

I'm monotheistic, and I love my monotheism.

As am I and yes I love it.  

34 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

 But, I would only imagine that if I were polytheistic, if I really thought that was the truth and the good, that I wouldn't push away the label, be ashamed of it, or reject it, but embrace it.

And what would you do if people falsely slapped the "polytheistic" label on you and persecuted you for it?

Welcome to my life.

34 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

Is this a universal thing in Latter-Day Saint circles? Why does it happen? How do you react to and respond to people who say that Latter-Day Saints are polytheistic... and why?

Is there something I haven't taken into the equation?

I depends on who's asking.  

If it's a person who's honestly just misunderstanding things or misinformed, I'll talk to them about it and straighten things out.  Easy done, if they're willing to listen.

If (in the regrettably more common case), their ears are closed and they're obviously just wanting to falsely persecute me, I walk away.  I don't need to be in a toxic environment where people are going to misrepresent and mistreat me.

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3 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

One of the core tenets of "traditional Christianity" (which essentially can be classified as Catholicism + Protestantism) is the Trinity. Trinitarian Christianity is, by definition, monotheistic.  

Mormons have long be accused of not being "true" Christians, and that is based almost entirely on Mormon theology not fitting in to Trinitarian Christianity.  If you operate on the assumption that Christian is fully synonymous with Trinitarian, then by definition, Mormonism is not Christian.  

I find most people aren't aware of those nuances. Whenever I've explained it to anyone who wasn't trying to grind an axe (Mormon or not), the response has been universally, "well that's a stupid reason not to call Mormons Christian."

In a similar vein, acknowledging any kind of polytheism or henotheism automatically disqualifies Mormonism from being Christian to any Trinitarian Christian.  Which is why a lot of Mormons resist the labels...they want to fit in with the Christian label, without understanding that most of the world has a different definition of "Christian."

(Catholicism + Protestantism + Eastern Orthodoxy!)

But, if that's what you believe, it still seems like you shouldn't be ashamed of it... To hide it seems like trying to trick people. 😕

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Just now, MaryJehanne said:

(Catholicism + Protestantism + Eastern Orthodoxy!)

But, if that's what you believe, it still seems like you shouldn't be ashamed of it... To hide it seems like trying to trick people. 😕

As I said, I don't believe it's a matter of people trying to "hide" it.  It's more like people aren't aware of the nuances, don't take the time to understand where other religions are coming from, and are therefore unequipped to have adequate conversations that can bridge the gaping chasms between their belief systems.

sidenote: I'm not sure everyone needs to go pursuing all of that knowledge.  It's trivial, and has almost zero impact on how a person functionally practices their religion. And if everyone pursued all of that knowledge like I do, I wouldn't get to feel so smug and superior all the time. 

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5 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

Just to specify, I haven't gotten any backlash! I've never mentioned this in conversation with an LDS member before. I just watch other people's conversations. :)

Yes, there is the original definition of cult that just means "a following." I have no problem with that! There's another definition of cult, a "brainwashing cult" that seeks to control and isolate its members, usually under a dictatorship-type structure that smothers free thinking and questioning. That's the more commonly known definition.

There is an entire cottage industry of "Christian ministers" who publish lies about what LDS folks believe (including the lie that LDS are polytheists), and they do this under the name of "countering cults".  Many other honest Christians somehow come across their stuff and (not knowing any better) believe it.

An LDS person in the USA spends their entire LDS life dealing with this "countering cults" stuff and... admittedly after decades it can become a sore spot.

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9 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

the LDS don't care either way, and would rather not admit the label, even if it were true, for fear of looking bad?

I think the church is just as concerned about the title of polytheism as a America is worried about the island of Tonga declaring war on us. It just isn’t on the radar of the church.

If it did, I imagine the response would be something to the sort of “it doesn’t matter, what matters is that we focus our lives on the life of a Christ and we do what is necessary to reach Heaven.” The church isn’t afraid of anything, it’s just such a minute philosophical point that really doesn’t need to be addressed. 

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14 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

So, this is the standard Latter-Day Saint stance. 

LDS are monotheists.  There is ONE God.  Different divine persons, but ONE God.

 

For a more detailed walk through:

LDS and Athanasian Christians both believe:

The Father is 100% divine.

The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.

The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.

The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end. 

The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit.

The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God.

 

The difference comes in:

Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.

Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through consubstantiation.

Edited by Jane_Doe
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1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

We don't like to be called that for the exact same reason you would be offended for being labeled a polytheist: cause it's GROSSLY inaccurate.  

Rather, we both believe in ONE God.  Three divine persons, but ONE God.  

Also GROSSLY inaccurate.   Again, ONE God.  Different persons, ONE God.

But... that's not what I've read about LDS doctrine. 😕

I mean, there's, "Just as a child can develop the attributes of his or her parents over time, the divine nature that humans inherit can be developed to become like their Heavenly Father's." (https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng)

And then there is, "Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine." (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/smithpluralityofgodssermon.htm)

And also, "The first-born spirit child of God the Father was Jehovah, whom Latter-day Saints identify as the premortal Jesus. Jehovah was a God and was like God the Father in attributes [...]."

And from that, "Jesus was a God in the pre-earthly existence. Our Father in Heaven gave Him a name above all others—the Christ." (https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/03/joy-in-christ?lang=eng&_r=1)

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1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.

While I see where you are coming from, this line of reasoning doesn't work with anyone outside of Mormonism.  To an Athanasian, what you've described is, by definition, not monotheistic.

Which brings us back to a difference of definitions between two faith systems. Something that simply cannot be reconciled.

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6 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

As I said, I don't believe it's a matter of people trying to "hide" it.  It's more like people aren't aware of the nuances, don't take the time to understand where other religions are coming from, and are therefore unequipped to have adequate conversations that can bridge the gaping chasms between their belief systems.

sidenote: I'm not sure everyone needs to go pursuing all of that knowledge.  It's trivial, and has almost zero impact on how a person functionally practices their religion. And if everyone pursued all of that knowledge like I do, I wouldn't get to feel so smug and superior all the time. 

Okay... 😕

I mean, I do think it's really important, but, of course, I'm going to try not to drift from the main topic! :P

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. :)

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1 minute ago, MaryJehanne said:

But... that's not what I've read about LDS doctrine. 😕

I mean, there's, "Just as a child can develop the attributes of his or her parents over time, the divine nature that humans inherit can be developed to become like their Heavenly Father's." (https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng)

And then there is, "Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine." (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/smithpluralityofgodssermon.htm)

And also, "The first-born spirit child of God the Father was Jehovah, whom Latter-day Saints identify as the premortal Jesus. Jehovah was a God and was like God the Father in attributes [...]."

And from that, "Jesus was a God in the pre-earthly existence. Our Father in Heaven gave Him a name above all others—the Christ." (https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/03/joy-in-christ?lang=eng&_r=1)

And when a person becomes exalted, they become ONE with God.  At the end of the day, there's still only ONE God.

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Just now, MaryJehanne said:

Okay... 😕

I mean, I do think it's really important, but, of course, I'm going to try not to drift from the main topic! :P

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. :)

I'd be curious to hear your explanation about how the differences between Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian Christianity affect the day-to-day practices of each...and the contrast between the two.

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1 minute ago, MarginOfError said:

While I see where you are coming from, this line of reasoning doesn't work with anyone outside of Mormonism.  To an Athanasian, what you've described is, by definition, not monotheistic.

Which brings us back to a difference of definitions between two faith systems. Something that simply cannot be reconciled.

Frankly, my relationship and God is not defined by an Athanasian's views.  I understand how this can cause misunderstanding on their part, and i'm happy to clarify.   But it doesn't change my God or relationship with Him. 

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7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

There is an entire cottage industry of "Christian ministers" who publish lies about what LDS folks believe (including the lie that LDS are polytheists), and they do this under the name of "countering cults".  Many other honest Christians somehow come across their stuff and (not knowing any better) believe it.

An LDS person in the USA spends their entire LDS life dealing with this "countering cults" stuff and... admittedly after decades it can become a sore spot.

I've seen a lot of Protestant preachers online (they're mostly the ones who record their endeavors!) who are... less then charitable. I like seeing the interactions, because I think it's informative on people's beliefs, but I don't agree with their approach most of the time. Especially the ones who just sit and scream that people are going to Hell. :P

I don't think polytheism necessarily indicates a brainwashing cult. Polytheism was the common type of religion in ancient times, except for a few pop-ups like one of the Egyptian Pharaohs, and, of course, Judaism. Polytheistic religions still exist today.

But, Joseph Smith's teaching seemed pretty clear, and a central part of the LDS salvation is that people become gods?

Yeah, as I've seen from videos, people aren't always the kindest. I'm sorry you have to deal with that. :(

 

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I think it's a bit dishonest to refuse to admit that claiming Latter-day Saints are monotheistic (which we do) requires some wordplay on what monotheistic and polytheistic mean.

The problem is, @MaryJehanne, is that polytheistic is typically viewed as religions like old Greek/Roman gods, Hinduism, or some of the Polynesian views, etc. And the Latter-day Saint view has nothing in common with those and much, much more in common with traditional Judeo-Christian views of monotheism, but with, as @MarginOfError points out, nuances.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

And when a person becomes exalted, they become ONE with God.  At the end of the day, there's still only ONE God.

Huh... That sounds like the Catholic God. That isn't what I've read about LDS doctrine from even LDS resources... Do you have the places where this teaching is found?

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Just now, Jane_Doe said:

Sorry, if I sound hostile.  I don't mean to @MarginOfError or @MaryJehanne.  I'm actually 100% ok talking about thing with folks who honestly want to talk about stuff.

I'm used to hostility.  I'm an academic at heart, and I talk like one.  And academics have a bad habit of saying exactly what they think in a succinct a way as possible while using as many words as they can. We also come off as cold and detached, which is kind of a survival mechanism for making sure that we can take criticism and evaluate it objectively.  

For what it's worth, I'm currently most prone to describing Mormonism as "theistic".  I'm content to leave off all of the prefixes. 

Oh no, I've gone hipster!  I'm not into labels!

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1 minute ago, MaryJehanne said:

I've seen a lot of Protestant preachers online (they're mostly the ones who record their endeavors!) who are... less then charitable. I like seeing the interactions, because I think it's informative on people's beliefs, but I don't agree with their approach most of the time. Especially the ones who just sit and scream that people are going to Hell. :P

I don't think polytheism necessarily indicates a brainwashing cult. Polytheism was the common type of religion in ancient times, except for a few pop-ups like one of the Egyptian Pharaohs, and, of course, Judaism. Polytheistic religions still exist today.

But, Joseph Smith's teaching seemed pretty clear, and a central part of the LDS salvation is that people become gods?

Yeah, as I've seen from videos, people aren't always the kindest. I'm sorry you have to deal with that. :(

 

Thank you for your understanding of how some people are... unkind, and how this can cause bitterness for those that are subjected to that treatment.  It means a a lot.

1 minute ago, MaryJehanne said:

But, Joseph Smith's teaching seemed pretty clear, and a central part of the LDS salvation is that people become gods?

Which brings the total number of Gods up to: 1.  

We don't replace God or become some other "rival".  Rather we become one with God.  We take on all of God's attributes: His kindness, mercy, justice, power, knowledge, etc.

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2 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

Huh... That sounds like the Catholic God. That isn't what I've read about LDS doctrine from even LDS resources... Do you have the places where this teaching is found?

It is different than the Catholic view because LDS don't believe in Athanasian consubstantiality.  

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