SJWism is destroying Disney!

[Fether]

11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Luke isn't a "bad A" Jedi just because he decided to wear a black cloak. He barely gets away, barely saves them all, etc. And there is no implication that he's the greatest Jedi in existence.

He bested one of the greatest force users ever to exit, his personality all of episode 6 had a gothic and “I have grown so much” tone. That was not the same Luke we saw at the end of Empire Strikes back

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, Fether said:

He bested one of the greatest force users ever to exit, his personality all of episode 6 had a gothic and “I have grown so much” tone. That was not the same Luke we saw at the end of Empire Strikes back

Are you taking the EU into account or not? Because if you do, than Luke is clearly one of the most powerful Jedi of all time. 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

It totally is! Everything was great up until episode 6. From the very beginning of episode 6, they portrayed him as a bad A master Jedi that walks around slowly with purpose and maturity whereas only an episode earlier he was an emotional farm boy that bore the skywalker name well. Then we see this strange wrestle with the dark side when he was with the emperor that came out of nowhere and had no explanation. If I were to write a story today about a farm boy who learns to be a Jedi, spends a few days lifting rocks, gets his hand cut off, then all of a sudden takes on the persona of the greatest Jedi in existence, that story would never be published.

Im not saying it is a bad movie, I only argue that every flaw in the prequels and the new movies have a mirror image in the OT

Disagree.  Luke Skywalker is a very well-developed archetypical character.

A New Hope - he is introduced as a simple/poor little orphan boy with big dreams that ended up getting swept up into things much bigger than he is.  Think of Harry Potter in the cupboard under the stairs and every other iconic characters of this archetype.  Rey followed this arc on Episode VII but JJ Abrams messed this up when he ended the movie with Rey - without a lick of training nor understanding of the Force - beat Kylo - Jedi apprentice for decades with the genetic aptitude of great jedis.  That's what made her a Mary Sue.  You can argue that Anakin was the same when he blew up the shield generator in Episode I - the difference here is that Anakin accidentally did it whereas Rey beat Kylo from a magically-acquired skill with the Force.

Empire Strikes Back - Luke trains to fill the shoes of the hero (he's not given the hero thing dropped on his lap without working for it).  His weaknesses are displayed making him untrainable and unpredictable.  In his pride, he goes off to fight the villain and got soundly beat.  Then you got Rey - still untrained, goes off to fight and beat up the Praetorian Guard even saving Kylo - once again, the Jedi apprentice who has had decades of training.

Return of the Jedi - Luke completes his training with Yoda, he is shown to have overcome his weaknesses (he is a calmer, more in-control, more purposeful Luke).  And with what is typical of this archetype - he goes to save the villain and in the process risks getting sucked into villainy.   Think - Harry Potter saving Draco Malfoy.  He doesn't just swoop in and save the day easily.  He almost turns into the dark side due to the same weakness that he has struggled with all throughout the trilogy - his compassion and loyalty for friends and family, always seeing the good in them, always thinking he's the only one that can save them.  (Another reason The Last Jedi sucked because this characteristic in Luke is completely absent - felt nothing for Han, almost killed his nephew when he saw darkness in him... what a moron story arc - Luke, the guy who saved Darth Vader, felt a desire to kill Kylo... moronic).  Finally overcoming everything with the help of his Father (note again - he didn't just swoop in and saved the day... his father had to help him!) which is the act that also saved his father.  Very archetypical, very awesome story telling.

The fans expected Luke to finally show his bad-bumerry as the great Jedi Master that he is, swooping in and saving the galaxy effortlessly in the next trilogy.  The anticipation was heightened in Episode VII after he was hid from the fans until the very last minute.  Everybody was super duper hyped up.... Then - Episode 8 showed a stupid Luke.  What a major let-down!  After Episode 8 ruined the story and the characters - there is nowhere Episode 9 could go that is any good.  Luke is dead, Han is dead.  Carrie Fisher is gone.  Kylo and Rey remained undeveloped with stories that don't make sense in the universe.  There's nowhere Episode 9 could go to save the story.

Edited September 26, 2018 by anatess2

[JohnsonJones]

Ironic.

This thread has it.

A woman is the one arguing that a Hollywood movie series is full of something referred to as SJW and that this priority in Hollywood moviemaking is making bad movies.

A man is the one arguing that this is okay vs. that woman.

I was under the impression that the idea behind the SJW, or some of it, pertained to men pushing their opinions on woman and saying the man had the superior opinion.

Thus, I find it ironic.

 

On the concept of films, we all must pay attention to what we watch.  A majority of the films talked about here seem to be of the PG-13 order.  I normally do not to watch such films due to language, violence, or even sensuality in many of them.  (edit: this does not mean one cannot or it is a bad thing to watch them, I just normally do not find them enticing to me to watch).  It is no surprise that one could find something offensive in them.

Of course, I'm am more sensitive than most to such things, and as such, normally do not watch PG-13 movies (with rare exception, my kids and grandkids drag me along at times to watch these things).  People would probably find most of what I watch or read very dull in comparison to what they watch and read.

I try to find uplifting things to read and watch, and if it is probably not going to be uplifting...I find something else to read or watch.

Edited September 26, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 After Episode 8 ruined the story and the characters - there is nowhere Episode 9 could go that is any good.  Luke is dead, Han is dead.  Carrie Fisher is gone.  Kylo and Rey remained undeveloped with stories that don't make sense in the universe.  There's nowhere Episode 9 could go to save the story.

FWIW: Ep9 can't fall as badly as 7&8 did, cause it's already dropped from the atmosphere to the basement.  Yeah, Ep9 could go to a deeper basement, but that's still less of a vertical drop.

[Fether]

28 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Are you taking the EU into account or not? Because if you do, than Luke is clearly one of the most powerful Jedi of all time. 

Me bringing this up just had to do with people complaints that Rey beat Kylo-Ren but they are ok with a force user of only would looks like a few months completed destroys Darth Vader, one of the most praised Sith Lords the eve exist.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Fether

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

Me bringing this up just had to do with people complaints that Rey beat Kylo-Ren but they are ok with a force user of only would looks like a few months completed destroys Darth Vader, one of the most praised Sith Lords the eve exist.

Wow.  You must be in some parallel universe.  There was never a single time... not a one... that Luke beat Darth Vader, let alone "completely destroys" him.  Darth Vader - even without the use of his organic hands - is the most powerful Force-user in the universe.  Luke SAVED Vader after Vader sacrificed himself to his Sith master.  We expected Luke to take his place as the most powerful Force-user in the universe... not some whiny hermit pumping milk out of some space cow.

Edited September 26, 2018 by anatess2

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

Please explain

She didn't train. 

[anatess2]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

She didn't train. 

At the end of TLJ - Another one of the foundational concepts destroyed - now you can just be any kid anywhere without having ever heard of the "Force", never having met a Jedi/Sith, and just be able to move objects with the Force because... what... "I was born with it"?  Stupid.  Disney has ZERO understanding of the Star Wars universe.

Edited September 26, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

56 minutes ago, Fether said:

Me bringing this up just had to do with people complaints that Rey beat Kylo-Ren but they are ok with a force user of only would looks like a few months completed destroys Darth Vader, one of the most praised Sith Lords the eve exist.

Totally understandable. 

[Fether]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

She didn't train. 

But she had more reason to know how to fight than Luke did. She grew up fending for herself on a harsh desert planet. When she fought Kylo-Ren, she awakened the force in herself which added to her already capable survival skills. and she was fighting a guy that just took a hit from a Wookiee crossbow. This, at least to me,  seems more believable than a farm boy who spent a few days - a week lifting rocks and doing flips with a green alien on his back.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

There was never a single time... not a one... that Luke beat Darth Vader, let alone "completely destroys" him

Sure looks like this farm boy with only what seems like a couple months of experience on the force gave Vader a run for his money.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Fether said:

But she had more reason to know how to fight than Luke did. She grew up fending for herself on a harsh desert planet. When she fought Kylo-Ren, she awakened the force in herself which added to her already capable survival skills. and she was fighting a guy that just took a hit from a Wookiee crossbow. This, at least to me,  seems more believable than a farm boy who spent a few days - a week lifting rocks and doing flips with a green alien on his back.

You clearly do not understand the ways of the force.

Of course neither does Rian Johnson...so.

Honestly I'm more bothered by her excessive powers in TLJ than in TFA.

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

not some whiny hermit pumping milk out of some space cow.

He only did that to tick off anatess and get Rey to leave.

[Fether]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

You clearly do not understand the ways of the force.

Of course neither does Rian Johnson...so.

Honestly I'm more bothered by her excessive powers in TLJ than in TFA.

I think George Lucas knew less about the force than anyone else

At first it was some mystic power that gave users heightened senses and the ability to lift things with their minds. Then it became somewhat mystical on the empire strikes back with the scene in the cave where Luke faces Vader/himself, then he takes a science turn in Phantom Menace and then abandons that in episode 2 and 3. The force has had a consistent identity ever since George Lucas left StarWars. The Clonewars series,  StarWars Rebels, and the new movies have all agreed perfectly with how the force works.

[anatess2]

18 minutes ago, Fether said:

Sure looks like this farm boy with only what seems like a couple months of experience on the force gave Vader a run for his money.

Couple months experience???   Fether, you clearly have no clue about what you're talking about.  And no.  Luke did not "completely destroy Vader".  You clearly have no idea what went on in that scene too.

Edited September 26, 2018 by anatess2

[anatess2]

22 minutes ago, Fether said:

I think George Lucas knew less about the force than anyone else

At first it was some mystic power that gave users heightened senses and the ability to lift things with their minds. Then it became somewhat mystical on the empire strikes back with the scene in the cave where Luke faces Vader/himself, then he takes a science turn in Phantom Menace and then abandons that in episode 2 and 3. The force has had a consistent identity ever since George Lucas left StarWars. The Clonewars series,  StarWars Rebels, and the new movies have all agreed perfectly with how the force works.

Another one showing you didn't "get it".  Midichlorians aside, even that doesn't really detract from the Force concept.

Edited September 26, 2018 by anatess2

[Fether]

16 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Another one showing you didn't "get it".

Clearly. Perhaps you can also explain to me how Luke was receiving his training over the course of weeks or months on Dagobah... but Han and the others were only in cloud coty for a few days and some how those time lines line up? And then maybe clarify to me what the plan was to save Han at the beginning of Return of the Jedi, and also what was the empire thinking in giving the rebels the REAL plans for the new death star instead of fake plans to lure them in to the trap at the end of Return of the Jedi, and also explain why Leia after being rescued knew they were being tracked, still chose to go to Yavin 4 and reveal the rebel base, what about when Vader disables the Millenium Falcon’s hyperdrive when they escape cloud city.... but didn’t just disable the whole ship? And what about the grieving of the loss of Leia’s Home world Alderan, it is as if she never cared about its destruction. And Luke seemed to get over the death of his family rather quickly.

None if these plot holes would be so easily ignored if they existed in the newer movies .

admitedly I had to look a few of these plot holes up online to add to my list. But I’m not trying to prove to anyone that these movies are bad. I’m only trying to point out that they are just as rough around the edges as the new StarWars movies.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Fether

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Fether said:

datinah

?

[Fether]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

?

Haha Dagobah* 

I fixed it

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

I’m only trying to point out that they are just as rough around the edges as the new StarWars movies.

I don't believe they are perfect movies. But they are not "just" as rough around the edges. At least not as TLJ.

[anatess2]

18 minutes ago, Fether said:

Clearly. Perhaps you can also explain to me how Luke was receiving his training over the course of weeks or months on Dagobah... but Han and the others were only in cloud coty for a few days and some how those time lines line up? And then maybe clarify to me what the plan was to save Han at the beginning of Return of the Jedi, and also what was the empire thinking in giving the rebels the REAL plans for the new death star instead of fake plans to lure them in to the trap at the end of Return of the Jedi, and also explain why Leia after being rescued knew they were being tracked, still chose to go to Yavin 4 and reveal the rebel base, what about when Vader disables the Millenium Falcon’s hyperdrive when they escape cloud city.... but didn’t just disable the whole ship? And what about the grieving of the loss of Leia’s Home world Alderan, it is as if she never cared about its destruction. And Luke seemed to get over the death of his family rather quickly.

None if these plot holes would be so easily ignored if they existed in the newer movies .

admitedly I had to look a few of these plot holes up online to add to my list. But I’m not trying to prove to anyone that these movies are bad. I’m only trying to point out that they are just as rough around the edges as the new StarWars movies.

It's exhausting having to rehash this simply because it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the issue.  You keep on saying "there are plot holes"... DUH.  THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE.  The issue is the Disney/Star Wars RESPONSE to the fanbase when they critique'd Episode VII and especially Episode VIII.

That said... without touching the EU (because from your posts you are only talking about movie references without the timeline in-between movies) what exactly did Luke accomplish?  Nothing much:

Episode IV:

• Blocking a toy dueling droid from hitting him with non-lethal lasers while blind
• Timing perfectly a pre-programmed photon torpedo to barrel down a thermal exhaust port

Episode V:

• Tug a lightsaber out of snow
• Have a very vague vision of disaster (that lost him an arm)
• Jump like Michael Jackson out of the Carbonite Pit
• Connect with his sister's latent force sensitivity by shouting

Episode VI:

• Get a bunch of weak-minded lackeys to almost turn on Jabba before getting awoken.
• Catch a lightsaber in midair like um....a good Football Player?
• Tell that he shouldn't have been on the mission because of Vader
• Levitate C3P0 on a chair

 

Other than that... He fought Vader WHO HAD NO INTENTION OF KILLING HIM OR EVEN DEFEATING HIM, OBVIOUSLY.  That's why the fandom was SUPER EXCITED for Episode VII-VIII-IX!  THEY WERE EXPECTING TO FINALLY SEE LUKE WITH HIS SUPER POWERS!  Especially after Disney decided to scrap the EU!  And... Episode VIII got special outcry - Episode VIII was not a plot hole.  Episode VIII was a destruction of key Star Wars concepts.

Edited September 26, 2018 by anatess2

[Fether]

28 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

It's exhausting having to rehash this simply because it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the issue.  You keep on saying "there are plot holes"... DUH.  THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE.  The issue is the Disney/Star Wars RESPONSE to the fanbase when they critique'd Episode VII and especially Episode VIII.

That said... without touching the EU (because from your posts you are only talking about movie references without the timeline in-between movies) what exactly did Luke accomplish?  Nothing much:

Episode IV:

• Blocking a toy dueling droid from hitting him with non-lethal lasers while blind
• Timing perfectly a pre-programmed photon torpedo to barrel down a thermal exhaust port

Episode V:

• Tug a lightsaber out of snow
• Have a very vague vision of disaster (that lost him an arm)
• Jump like Michael Jackson out of the Carbonite Pit
• Connect with his sister's latent force sensitivity by shouting

Episode VI:

• Get a bunch of weak-minded lackeys to almost turn on Jabba before getting awoken.
• Catch a lightsaber in midair like um....a good Football Player?
• Tell that he shouldn't have been on the mission because of Vader
• Levitate C3P0 on a chair

 

Other than that... He fought Vader WHO HAD NO INTENTION OF KILLING HIM OR EVEN DEFEATING HIM, OBVIOUSLY.  That's why the fandom was SUPER EXCITED for Episode VII-VIII-IX!  THEY WERE EXPECTING TO FINALLY SEE LUKE WITH HIS SUPER POWERS!  Especially after Disney decided to scrap the EU!  And... Episode VIII got special outcry - Episode VIII was not a plot hole.  Episode VIII was a destruction of key Star Wars concepts.

I guess I never got that frustration. Once I heard the EU was scrapped I never bothered with it. Instead I followed the line and universe that Disney had said was now cannon. i.e. Clone Wars, Rebels, movies, KOTR and a couple specific books.

So to my understanding is that the biggest issue you and many others have is with Luke. For me I thought he was great. His reaction to everything was very Skywalkery  and typical of his blood line. I do wish we got to see more of his matured Jedi skills, but for me it didn’t bother me that much.

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

So to my understanding is that the biggest issue you and many others have is with Luke. For me I thought he was great. His reaction to everything was very Skywalkery  and typical of his blood line. I do wish we got to see more of his matured Jedi skills, but for me it didn’t bother me that much.

We've been Star Wars fans since the late 70's with the EU.  Our children grew up with us sharing our fandom with them that includes the EU.  Therefore, we don't go back to the 70's and critique a movie minus the EU just because Disney got rid of the EU.  

 

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

So to my understanding is that the biggest issue you and many others have is with Luke. For me I thought he was great. His reaction to everything was very Skywalkery  and typical of his blood line. I do wish we got to see more of his matured Jedi skills, but for me it didn’t bother me that much.

This is what happens when you got people who don't understand Star Wars making Star Wars movies - Luke was 180 degrees removed from his character that even Mark Hamill repeatedly told Johnson - that's not what Luke would do.  He wasn't Skywalkery at all and completely not characteristic for his bloodline.  Go look at Ivan Ortega's work re-editing Episode VIII.   I'll give you just one of the many character deviations that Ivan fixed below.

In any case, Luke was not the only problem with the new Star Wars.  The shallow characters, the misapplication of the Force, the nonsensical storylines designed for SJW points, etc. etc.  And, most importantly, the way Disney/Star Wars treated the fandom.  After watching TLJ, I had mixed feelings about it - I loved the Kylo/Rey force connection scenes and the panorama was excellent.  Didn't like Luke, hated flying Leia, didn't like Tico at all, etc. etc.  But what ruined it all for me was the way Disney/Star Wars execs dealt with the critique (that always comes after every Star Wars movie) flinging SJW crap around, feeding the trolls then lumping the fandom with the trolls.

 

[pam]

To be honest, I would never really have noticed anything in Beauty and the Beast had not so many Mormons made such a big deal about it before it came out.  Even after seeing it I still really didn't see much of anything to call it a gay scene.  More like a bromance to me.  Not going to say that it was maybe a little bit more than that but I don't think it was anywhere as bad as people were making it out to be.