New security measures for church events


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14 hours ago, OnePassenger said:

I once got the idea of wearing some pure black pepper in my right hand jeans pocket. In case of getting in trouble and in a self defense you could throw it or wipe it directly into the face of the aggressor. I guess even a dog would get finished and moved away, with its nose a thousand times more sensible than a man's. It's like a Ninja weapon.

and it tastes good on a sandwich if you have not been attacked. ;)

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I am not anti-gun.  I would just hope that members would have some amount of faith that the Lord is going to protect us..  And that we don't need to have firearms there.

I would really hope that if someone pulled a gun, others around him would pounce on him before he could cause much damage.  You don't need a gun to stop an armed person in a crowded area.  You need a couple of brave individuals to take the person down.

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4 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I would just hope that members would have some amount of faith that the Lord is going to protect us.

And if He doesn't, well, if he was righteous, the Lord is just calling someone to new fields of labor.  And if he wasn't righteous, well, we should be righteous.

I guess I'm ok with this line of thinking.  I just have a different one.  "Pray to God, but row away from the rocks".  I know too many dead church members to think otherwise.

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25 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I would just hope that members would have some amount of faith that the Lord is going to protect us..  And that we don't need to have firearms there.

 

In the September 2008 Ensign the Church reminded the Saints of their "duty" to defend themselves and lives of their families when they printed and article with various letters that the Prophet Joseph Smith wrote to his wife Emma. It was called "My Dear and Beloved Companion". They included this quote from a letter that Joseph wrote just before he died in the Carthage Jail:

"There is one principle which is eternal…It is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of their households whenever necessity requires, and no power has a right to forbid it."
Joseph Smith did not say that it was a "good idea" to defend your family...he did not say "Don't worry about defending yourself...God will do that for you"...he said it was a "duty of all men". Brother Brigham did not say "It is the righteous who should expect God to fight their battles for them with no effort on their part". No...he said in so many words that those who thought there was no need to defend themselves were deceived and would wind up dead!

 

"We all believe that the Lord will fight our battles; but how? Will He do it while we are unconcerned and make no effort whatever for our own safety when an enemy is upon us? If we make no effort to guard our towns, our houses, our cities, our wives and children, will the Lord guard them for us? He will not; but if we pursue the opposite course and strive to help Him to accomplish His designs, then will He fight our battles. We are baptized for the remission of sins; but it would be quite as unreasonable to expect a remission of sins without baptism, as to expect the Lord to fight our battles without our taking every precaution to be prepared to defend ourselves. The Lord requires us to be quite as willing to fight our own battles as to have Him fight them for us. If we are not ready for an enemy when he comes upon us, we have not lived up to the requirements of Him who guides the ship of Zion, or who dictates the affairs of his kingdom."

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 131, August 1-10, 1865.

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

 

In the September 2008 Ensign the Church reminded the Saints of their "duty" to defend themselves and lives of their families when they printed and article with various letters that the Prophet Joseph Smith wrote to his wife Emma. It was called "My Dear and Beloved Companion". They included this quote from a letter that Joseph wrote just before he died in the Carthage Jail:

"There is one principle which is eternal…It is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of their households whenever necessity requires, and no power has a right to forbid it."
Joseph Smith did not say that it was a "good idea" to defend your family...he did not say "Don't worry about defending yourself...God will do that for you"...he said it was a "duty of all men". Brother Brigham did not say "It is the righteous who should expect God to fight their battles for them with no effort on their part". No...he said in so many words that those who thought there was no need to defend themselves were deceived and would wind up dead!

 

"We all believe that the Lord will fight our battles; but how? Will He do it while we are unconcerned and make no effort whatever for our own safety when an enemy is upon us? If we make no effort to guard our towns, our houses, our cities, our wives and children, will the Lord guard them for us? He will not; but if we pursue the opposite course and strive to help Him to accomplish His designs, then will He fight our battles. We are baptized for the remission of sins; but it would be quite as unreasonable to expect a remission of sins without baptism, as to expect the Lord to fight our battles without our taking every precaution to be prepared to defend ourselves. The Lord requires us to be quite as willing to fight our own battles as to have Him fight them for us. If we are not ready for an enemy when he comes upon us, we have not lived up to the requirements of Him who guides the ship of Zion, or who dictates the affairs of his kingdom."

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 131, August 1-10, 1865.

 

 

 

 

I completely agree with the above.  And I still feel there is no need for those attending conference to be armed.  If there is a gunman, they can still take him down without themselves having a gun.  Much better to rush him than to try and fire at him.  The last thing you need is 50 different people firing from 50 different locations in a crowded area.  Just a dumb idea.

It is far better to rush him and take him down.  You or anyone else having a gun there is not going to stop him any better than people rushing him.  And if people all rush him, the chance of a repeat is low.

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11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, God wouldn't exactly be protecting the guy that all us mormons are beating to death, now would He...

Or the people in front who rushed the shooter and took his bullets so the people behind can get to him. :rolleyes:

The question is, if it's so obvious to the folks without guns that you don't want people shooting at the attacker from 50 different directions, why do they think it's not obvious to the people carrying concealed?  Mentally running through scenarios is what serious gun-carriers do.  The few people I've talked to about this kind of thing aren't so stupid as some folk in this thread think them.

NOTE: I'm just fine with the Church asking people not to carry in the conference center or at church, so I'm not really talking about that so much as theoretical scenarios.

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2 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

The last thing you need is 50 different people firing from 50 different locations in a crowded area.  Just a dumb idea.

So you arbitrarily decided that 50 people are going to "open fire" because you do not like the idea.  What makes you think that 50 people will just start shooting?   

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I skimmed through the posts that I missed this week.  So, I didn't see all of them.  It still seems like no one cares what I have to say because my arguments are only being responded to by rhetoric and ridicule rather than having rational, reasoned responses.

So, forget what I said.  I had a conversation with my current bishop about it.  Rather enlightening. Perhaps you'll listen to what he said.

My previous bishop simply said,"Yeah, go ahead.  I don't have a problem with it.  This is Texas. People have guns.  It's not a big deal."  I thought that settled it for me.  But the conversation here led me to ask my current bishop about it as well.

My current bishop had a slightly different take:

Quote

That's not really as clear cut as you might think.  There is a reason why they used the word "inappropriate" rather than an outright ban.

There are some areas of the country where security really is a big issue.  And we're not just talking about third world countries.  Inner cities and some areas where politics are ramping up really are dangerous today.  And some people really do need to defend themselves.  But that doesn't really apply where we live because it's a pretty peaceful area.  I really don't see any danger here.  But that's not the only issue.

The fact is that many people in Texas have their CCW.  And they carry wherever they can.  So, if we tell people they can't carry in the building, then we have some liability.  If they don't bring it into the building, then do they leave it in the car?  We don't live in a violent area.  But we do live in an area where theft still happens.  What if the gun gets stolen?  Is the Church liable?  Then we begin talking about telling people to not even take the gun from their homes.*  Then that is an entire discussion in and of itself.

Then there is the cultural aspect.  In other areas of the country, someone having a gun exposed is a big deal.  In fact, some people (like Californians) would be outright shocked to simply HEAR of someone carrying a gun in church.  Just the thought would be distracting.  But in Texas?  Not so much.  I'm not going to go so far as to freely invite all to wear their six shooters openly in cowboy type waist holsters.  But if we hear about someone carrying concealed, it simply doesn't make a blip on anyone's mind.

That said (I'm not sure if you realize this)  But you appear to be the person people talk about when they want to know about guns.  Your affinity for the 2nd Amendment is... well... more... enthusiastic than most in the ward.  Not that that's a bad thing.  But it does make you stand out (you and Bro. E).  The truth is that I don't know how often you bring your gun to church if at all.  But most members of the ward pretty much believe you are carrying anyway.  And they don't seem to mind.  So, if they believe you are anyway (even when you're not) and if no one minds, I don't see any reason to tell you to leave it at home.

But I'd appreciate it if you took measures to make sure it is not incidentally exposed.

*Texas practice says businesses should have secure garages where people are asked to leave their guns in their car (in a locked box).  Then the business is responsible for the security of the employees in the building.  Our church buildings have no such protocols or security.

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25 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I was hoping they'd instigated a policy where anyone who shouts out vocally during the sustainings gets immediately tazed and dragged into a back alley to wake to stray cats licking their face.

So, that guitar in your avatar.... Is it electric? :D

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In every single ward I've even been a member there have always been either FBI members or Police Officers who I assume were carrying.  One time I remember about 6 priesthood members having their pagers go off at the same time and all getting up and reverently leaving the sacrament service.  

My daughter is currently finishing her mission at Temple Square.  Her favorite security guard is Charlie.  All the sisters have a panic button on their phones and response time is pretty darn fast.  There are unfortunately a good amount of crazy people and disaffected apostates that protest and hang around temple square.  The sister missionaries also have a mascot (Bomb Dog).

I trust that the church leaders have the security situation in hand.  

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