Abraham Was Not a Prophet. So Why Abraham?

[Guest]

Just now, JohnsonJones said:

If I understand your question right (and I might not) perhaps you should have read what I did prior to Wengland?

You are thinking of OUR day today and that there can ONLY BE ONE prophet and ONE head of the church at a time.  However, this was NOT ALWAYS SO.

You are thinking there can only be ONE patriarch at a time. 

No.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

59 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But I see no mention of him saying to any contemporaries (other than his close family) The Lord has revealed his will concerning "this people".  What new commandments did he introduce other than circumcision? What practices?  What modes of worship?  What prophecies of the future?

I expect we could go through the latter-day prophets and find several examples of the same. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

I expect we could go through the latter-day prophets and find several examples of the same. 

Yes.  And I addressed that too.  But it appears my queries are meeting deaf ears.  People just want to argue the notion of him being a prophet more than the underlying question I had.

Whatever.  I never get answers here anyways.

[JohnsonJones]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

No.

Then I have NO idea what you are asking.

You asked this

Quote

Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek.  Melchizedek was "the great high priest'.  He appears to be the last of the "patriarchs" and analogous to the President of the Church at the time.  That would mean that Abraham was not.

Abraham was a father.  An exalted father and a father of a multitude.  What was it that made him so special that the new dispensation (the Abrahamic covenant) was named after him?  Why do we receive the "blessings of Abraham".

I have explained that.  If you are asking something else, I'm not sure what you are asking.

As I stated previously, Abraham, just like all others were foreordained to this calling.  NOT ALL the descendants of Shem have this covenant.  NOT ALL the descendants of Noah have the Abrahamic covenant.  ONLY the children of Abraham (his descendants) have this covenant.

Why?

Because this is what Abraham was foreordained to.

It is like asking why was Jesus chosen to be the Messiah, or Joseph Smith chosen to be the head of our dispensation.  They were foreordained in the pre-existence to do so and be such.

S for being the Patriarch, it is actually Abraham, Issac, and Jacob who are considered the great Patriarchs of the Jews. 

If you are asking about Melchizedek being the great high priest and analogous to the President of the Church, well, most likely Melchizedek died at some point.

At that point, it is most likely when Abram became Abraham (as the aforementioned chapter 17 of Genesis).

If you are asking beyond that, anything we say is guesswork (such as the idea that Melchizedek was Shem).  If we go off that idea, Shem was NOT the great patriarch per se, but NOAH his father was.

However, continuing that line of reasoning, let's assume a possibility that Abrams father was Shem's only male heir.  With Shem's death, all promises would thus go through Abram.  As Abram's heirs stayed faithful (while Shem's did not), thus the pure line of descent would be from Abram...not Shem.  Shem's son fell away to idolatry, while Abram's sons stayed faithful until the twelve tribes were born and prospered.

Other than that, I have no idea what you may be asking.  It is hard to answer a question when one does not know what the question is.

[zil]

Given what we see in the 5 chapters of the Book of Abraham, I expect that if ever we get all of Abraham's writings, we'll find treasures.  Personally, I think the 5 chapters we have are treasures.

Perhaps Abraham's calling was strictly to establish a people and teach them the basics?  A sort of restoration?

(I'm assuming your focus is on what revelations and teachings we have (or don't have) from Abraham?)

[The Folk Prophet]

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 10:28 AM, Carborendum said:

What was it that made him so special that the new dispensation (the Abrahamic covenant) was named after him?  Why do we receive the "blessings of Abraham". 

Because God chose him.

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes.  And I addressed that too.  But it appears my queries are meeting deaf ears.  People just want to argue the notion of him being a prophet more than the underlying question I had.

Whatever.  I never get answers here anyways.

There you go.

[Guest]

Just now, JohnsonJones said:

Then I have NO idea what you are asking.

You asked this

I have explained that.  If you are asking something else, I'm not sure what you are asking.

Such has been the nature of my questions throughout my life.  I ask what I think is a simple question, not understanding that in my mind, I've taken it several layers deeper.  But I have no way of wording all the deeper levels of the question.  It just seems obvious from what I've asked.  This has been in all areas of intellectual pursuits.

Yet everyone is so busy looking at the question as worded that they don't take the time to look a few levels deeper to the core question.

I had hoped that after the many years I've been here that I had established a reputation that indicated that I was at least aware of the basic principles of the gospel and the basic nature of God's dealings with man.  But instead, it appears that people forget all that and give me the primary answers for the questions that apparently, no one else even considers.

If this sounds arrogant/prideful... well.. yes.  Perhaps it is.  But I'm getting very frustrated that when I have a question sticking in my mind that no one even seems to understand the question, much less, provide an answer.

[Guest]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Because God chose him.

That is actually coming closer to answering my question than any of the other responses so far.

Thank you.

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Carborendum said:

Such has been the nature of my questions throughout my life.  I ask what I think is a simple question, not understanding that in my mind, I've taken it several layers deeper.  But I have no way of wording all the deeper levels of the question.  It just seems obvious from what I've asked.  This has been in all areas of intellectual pursuits.

Yet everyone is so busy looking at the question as worded that they don't take the time to look a few levels deeper to the core question.

I had hoped that after the many years I've been here that I had established a reputation that indicated that I was at least aware of the basic principles of the gospel and the basic nature of God's dealings with man.  But instead, it appears that people forget all that and give me the primary answers for the questions that apparently, no one else even considers.

If this sounds arrogant/prideful... well.. yes.  Perhaps it is.  But I'm getting very frustrated that when I have a question sticking in my mind that no one even seems to understand the question, much less, provide an answer.

You're asking a question that no one has the answer to. We only have the same scriptures you do. As @zil said, there's probably a treasure trove of writings and information about Abraham that we don't have that would give a whole bunch of insight into the matter. But we don't have that. So I think it would be obvious that the things we can address we do, and the things we can't are left unaddressed. I'm not sure why you seem to be getting upset by that.

[JohnsonJones]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes.  And I addressed that too.  But it appears my queries are meeting deaf ears.  People just want to argue the notion of him being a prophet more than the underlying question I had.

Whatever.  I never get answers here anyways.

Half my post have nothing to do with him being a prophet, and how the patriarchal line went through Abram.  You are not clarifying on WHY my posts are not answering your question...and without clarity it is HARD to answer an unasked question.

in regards to what I posted above for more clarity, if we are going off of guesses...

A nutshell, if Shem's son fell away into idolatry, the covenant with Shem thus would be broken.  Hence, the covenant would have to be reestablished and made pure.  This covenant than, if it went through hereditary lines would be with Abram under this idea.  It is possible that when this covenant was made with Shem, this is when he undertook the name of Melchizedek.  However, if he had only one son, Abram's father, this covenant was broken promptly.  However, the promises remained.

Thus, the covenant would need to be reestablished with a PURE line, where the heirs did NOT break the covenant.  Hence, under the assumption, Abram gains ALL the promises and blessings of Melchizedek.  When Melchizedek died, the promises and blessings of Melchizedek would therefore fall upon Abram (chapter 17).  This, then, Abram get's changed to Abraham, and his covenants with the Lord are ensured. 

We see thus, that the line is NOT continued through his fallen son, but through the son that stays true to the Lord.  This pattern ALSO came upon Jacob and his sons and was why Judah was the head of the Tribes and the line of descent rather than Rueben or other brothers.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You're asking a question that no one has the answer to. We only have the same scriptures you do. As @zil said, there's probably a treasure trove of writings and information about Abraham that we don't have that would give a whole bunch of insight into the matter. But we don't have that. So I think it would be obvious that the things we can address we do, and the things we can't are left unaddressed. I'm not sure why you seem to be getting upset by that.

Ok.  You're right.  I have to apologize.  It's just difficult not being able to figure things out myself, much less, able to word questions for others to answer when they can't simply open my skull and peak inside (which, BTW, might be disturbing).

[JohnsonJones]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That is actually coming closer to answering my question than any of the other responses so far.

Thank you.

Are you even reading what I posted.  What do you think Foreordination is????

It may be we haven't answered your question because you haven't read what we posted, or maybe don't understand what we wrote?

Edited October 7, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Are you even reading what I posted.  What do you think Foreordination is????

It may be we haven't answered your question because you haven't read what we posted, or maybe don't understand what we wrote?

I read what you posted.  But that wasn't what I was addressing.

[zil]

25 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yet everyone is so busy looking at the question as worded that they don't take the time to look a few levels deeper to the core question.

So maybe we need to go all meta on your question - ask questions about the question until the rest of us understand it?  But it seems like it's too late for this - frustration has made it not worth the effort for you?

On 9/30/2018 at 10:28 AM, Carborendum said:

What was it that made him so special that the new dispensation (the Abrahamic covenant) was named after him?

I think the following verses might be the beginning of the answer?

Quote

Abraham 1:2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.

Abraham seems exceptional, to me.

On 9/30/2018 at 10:28 AM, Carborendum said:

Why do we receive the "blessings of Abraham".

Abraham explicitly sought to be a father of nations.  Do we know of anyone else who explicitly sought this particular blessing?  Abraham's approach seems to be different from that of others.  He didn't wait for the Lord to call him.  He wasn't taught by his father to obey the Lord and thereby receive blessings.  It was more like he heard (from somewhere) tales of the righteous fathers and went out looking for the same blessings they had rather than staying with what his father taught him.

On 9/30/2018 at 10:28 AM, Carborendum said:

What was it that made him so special that the new dispensation (the Abrahamic covenant) was named after him?  Why do we receive the "blessings of Abraham".

Now to go all meta:  I think the answer to the second question lies in the answer to the first question.  Would you agree?  If not, can you help expand?

Edited October 7, 2018 by zil

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, zil said:

So maybe we need to go all meta on your question

...I think the answer to the second question lies in the answer to the first question.  Would you agree?  If not, can you help expand?

Thank you.  

Wade had touched on it.  And I guess I might have gotten to it eventually going down the road he pointed to me.  But you went down there for me.  

Zil,

You're a blessing.

[zil]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Thank you.  

Wade had touched on it.  And I guess I might have gotten to it eventually going down the road he pointed to me.  But you went down there for me.  

Zil,

You're a blessing.

Well, I'm not sure what happened there, but if it got you an answer or closer to an answer, I'm glad.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, zil said:

Well, I'm not sure what happened there, but if it got you an answer or closer to an answer, I'm glad.

So, you don't even know how you answered my question? How does that happen?

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, you don't even know how you answered my question? How does that happen?

Well, I assume that if I answered your question, I did so with the part of my post you quoted?  And if that's correct, I didn't know because it's so simple - I stated what seemed obvious to me, and at the time I was assuming that question two was your effort to rephrase question one.

[zil]

NOTE: I do completely understand the fact that sometimes the simplest rephrasing of questions or answers will spark floods of light in a person's brain.  If that's the case here, hooray!

[mikbone]

Perhaps an eternal perspective can help.  We didn't start here on Earth at Birth.  Our spirits are very old, we walked and talked with Heavenly Father in the pre-mortal existence.

Abraham happened to be one of the amazing seven spirits that were chosen to lead dispensations.  In Abraham 3:23 Jehovah explains to Abraham why he was chosen (apparently Abraham had the same question).

Abraham like the other six dispensation leaders are extraordinary men.  They each were given keys of the priesthood, had direct and prolonged interaction with Jehovah or Jesus Christ during their lifetimes.  

Adam (Michael) , Enoch (Raphael?), Noah (Gabriel) , Abraham, Moses, Peter, & Joseph Smith - We don't know what these men did in the pre-mortal existence but they were outstanding in valor, obedience, and intelligence.  

[Lindy]

On 10/2/2018 at 2:21 PM, Traveler said:

Okay - I will do a rare thing for me on this forum - I will mix speculations with my studies.   by @wenglundbraham returned home and there is an old story about Abraham and idols.  It was said that Abraham disapproved of his father's idol worship.  I believe it included Baal but that is another speculation.  It is said that Abraham broke all his father's idols, except for one which was the smallest and most insignificant idle.  When Abraham's father returned Abraham told his father that the idols had a big disagreement and the remaining idle destroyed all the others.   Abraham's father was so upset that he set up Abraham to be sacrificed to several idols at the hand of an Egyptian priest - We can read the results of that sacrifice in the Book of Abraham.

I believe Abraham had solid and trusting relationship with Melchizedek.  But I want to point out something.  Even the Prophet and president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pays tithing to his bishop as well as being interviewed for a temple recommend - each holding the necessary keys to their calling.   But what I want to point out is that Abraham was a direct decedent of Shem and a rightful heir to the patriarchal priesthood - and was the oldest worthy direct heir descendant in that patriarchal order - thus Abraham was the prophet heir of Melchizedek and he assumed his prophetic role to the world when Melchizedek was taken up into heaven with Salem.

 

The Traveler

I remember giving a Primary lesson many years ago, and did a little more research into and found the similitude of Abraham did to Isaac to what the father of Abraham did to Abraham. I found it incredibly interesting, but could not find the reasoning behind it.

Thank you Traveler for that information.... it cleared things up for me, and I feel more in the know

Edited October 7, 2018 by Lindy
Needed to add something

[wenglund]

11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

 

@wenglund, you were the only one who actually addressed my real underlying question.  Do you know what I'm getting at?

Yes, I believe I do.  You would like some insights into why a mere stargazing nomad who nearly killed his son figures so prominent in the hierarchy of our faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Yes, I believe I do.  You would like some insights into why a mere stargazing nomad who nearly killed his son figures so prominent in the hierarchy of our faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Right Stake. Wrong ward.

[mordorbund]

13 hours ago, zil said:

Abraham explicitly sought to be a father of nations.  Do we know of anyone else who explicitly sought this particular blessing?  Abraham's approach seems to be different from that of others.  He didn't wait for the Lord to call him.  He wasn't taught by his father to obey the Lord and thereby receive blessings.  It was more like he heard (from somewhere) tales of the righteous fathers and went out looking for the same blessings they had rather than staying with what his father taught him.

I think the seeking is what makes him different. All the other patriarchs from Adam to Melchizedek were taught by their father to serve God and covenant with Him. Abraham is born into apostasy. His father is an idolater. He's an outsider to the believers (can't remember if it's in restoration scriptures or apocryphal writings, but he has to travel to see Shem and his people). He is approaching the patriarchal covenants as a convert and/or seeks a form of adoption (bypassing one or more generations to lay claim to the blessings of the fathers). Additionally, his hospitality is reflected in the Abrahamic covenant. He is promised that he (through his seed and priesthood) will be a blessing to the world. Although the Abrahamic covenant includes a renewing of the covenants made with Melchizedek, Enoch, and Adam (see JST Genesis 14, and the Enoch literature in Moses) I think the blessings reaching outside the familial line are novel. On a similar note, Abraham has a group of converts that travel with him - a sort of adopted posterity - so I think the principles of conversion/adoption are introduced through Abraham.

But I'm still not sure why Elias holds the keys to the gospel of Abraham and not Abraham himself.

[JohnsonJones]

22 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I read what you posted.  But that wasn't what I was addressing.

Everything you said answered or helped answered your question I already stated previously in the thread.  This is WHY I was wondering.  It's very confusing why you didn't get it the first time when I wrote it, but hey, I suppose maybe you just don't understand what I wrote at times.

Either that or tugging at my leg for some unknown reason.

If you got your answer otherwise though, I suppose, good.

Edited October 8, 2018 by JohnsonJones