A Gospel that Crushes?

[Telemantros]

A Gospel that Crushes?

Good day to you. I’ve introduced myself in several forums on this website already, and I’m glad to be a part of this community. If  we haven’t “met” yet, hello! I’m a middle aged, seeker who has been praying for and thinking through LDS views since I was visited by missionaries 10 years ago during my college years. In between raising a family and working, my time to devote has to be balanced; but I have read the BoM through completely, prayed and sought God, and continue to attend church. I’ve recently joined these forums to have some questions answered. Most recently, I stumbled across the book, “The Miracle of Forgiveness” by the Apostle/Prophet Spencer Kimball, and felt like I ought to read it. It has pressed me greatly on the nature of the gospel, but I’m just not sure in a good way; hence, this post. I’ve really tried to keep this as brief as a I can; but I obviously failed so to respect your time, here’s this post summed in the form of a question, “Does the LDS gospel crush your spirit?”

If you want to know where I’m coming from, read on.

 

I. Apostle’s Authority:

First off, what about the author? Can I trust him, or was he in error when it comes to the gospel? From my limited understanding, Spencer Kimball was an apostle under Harold B. Lee, and became the 12^thpresident of the LDS church. As an apostle at the time of writing “The Miracle of Forgiveness,” he was a member of the highest levels of the church with some of the highest authority (under the prophet of course). It is my understanding that apostles and prophets can even be considered to voice scripture at general conferences and in their writings on the LDS website? From this I take it that one better heed what an apostle/prophet has to say. However, some have told me that these men are just that, fallible men. I’m sympathetic to that, for even the prophets of the OT had moral struggles (e.g. Moses and anger). No one is perfect except Christ indeed. 

So a crucial question then, how does one know if an apostle or prophet is speaking doctrine or just as a man? Well, I asked this community and they suggested two tests: Scripture consistency, and the Law of multiple witnesses. This is helpful, and what’s more, seems to suggest that the press I feel from Kimball in his book is all the more valid. In other words, what he says regarding the gospel is trustworthy. Consider the two tests; briefly: 1. Scripture – Kimball offers a copious amount of scripture for some of his main points indicating scriptural support and consistency (see section II); and, 2. Law of multiple witnesses – a quick Google search lead me to find that this book was affirmed often by both active apostles and prophets throughout the several decades it was in print (e.g. Richard G Scott in the 1995 and 2004 General Conference, the Seventy Bruce Hafen, prophet Thomas Monson in his work “On the Lord’s Errand” written in 1985, Apostle Richard Evans in 1970, and the Apostle Boyd Packer in Ensign Magazine in 1974). The book, moreover, apparently sold over 1.6 million copies and was recommended by some church manuals (i.e. Teachings of the president of the church,”). It seems, from my cursory Google searching on LDS, that this book meets multiple witnesses. Moreover, when an apostle speaks to something as central as the gospel, if would seem dangerous for an apostle to speak in error. If an apostle where to err on something so foundational as the gospel,  think of the ramifications!

 

II. A Gospel that Crushes?

If the author is trustworthy, then we can turn to the content of the work, “The Miracle of Forgiveness,” itself. I read this book in the course of a week and a half and afterwards, felt that my soul was deeply crushed. If what Kimball says about the gospel is true, then it seems to me that no one can be saved (see Kimball’s four points below). Below is what I take to be central points that Kimball makes, with scriptural affirmations, about how forgiveness is bestowed.

a). In order to be saved, one must keep the commandments; that is, faith alone is not enough. 

Kimball quotes the following passages: 2 Nephi 25:23, “… for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do,” 3 Nephi 27:19-20, “…therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end,” Romans 2:6, “will render to every man according to his deeds,” and, Romans 2:13, “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” He summarizes: “However good a person’s works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else’s sins. And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does no comply with the works of the gospel,” (p. 207).

b). God never issues a commandment that cannot be kept; that is, every commandment in scripture is possible to be followed by humanity. 

Kimball quotes the following passages: Matthew 5:48, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect,” 1 Nephi 3:7, “And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.” Kimball notes, “But to carry the analogy further, my bull, had he been human, might have disciplined himself. Then with no right in the nose he would have controlled his own actions. So it is with human sin – self-control, self-mastery, can be substituted for the domain of sin, and the sinner can move by his own agency toward God rather than under the control of sin toward Satan,” (p. 28). Further, “While changing one’s life from evil to good is admittedly not easy, we cannot emphasize too strongly that every person endowed with normal faculties can do it,” (p. 175). 

c). One cannot be forgiven without true repentance; that is, if one does not keep a commandment they must repent. 

Kimball quotes the following passages: Moroni 10:32, “32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”, 2 Nephi 25:23 (as aforementioned), and, “Alma 11:37, “37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” Kimball notes,“In my years since then I have repeatedly heard people praise the Lord for his mercy in having forgiven the adulteress (in reference to Matthew 7:7). This example has been used numerous times to show how easily one can be forgiven of gross sin. But did the Lord forgave the woman? Could he forgive her? There seems to be no evidence of forgiveness. His command to her was, ‘Go, and sin no more.’ He was directing the sinful woman to go her way, abandon her evil life, commit no more sin, transform her life. He was saying, Go, woman and start your repentance,” (p. 165). He concludes, “To every forgiveness there is a condition. The plaster must be as wide as the sore. The fasting, the prayers, the humility must be equal to or greater than the sin. There must be a broken heart and a contrite spirit. There must be ‘sackcloth and ashes.’ There must be tears and genuine change of heart. There must be conviction of the sin, abandonment of the evil, confession of the error to properly constituted authorizes of the Lord … there must be a new consecration and devotion to the living of all the laws of God. In short, there must be an overcoming of self, of sin, and of the world,” (p. 353).

d). True repentance does not allow for repeated sin but forsaking that sin; that is, if a sin must be forsaken again (a second, third, fourth time) then the sin by definition was never utterly forsaken in the first place. True repentance means not repeating the sin. 

Kimball quotes John 8:11, “… go, and sin no more,” D&C 82:7, “7 And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God,” and, D&C 58:43, “43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” Kimball notes, “In other words, it is not real repentance until one has abandoned the error of his way and started on a new path,” (p. 163). He continues, “Old sins return, says the Lord in his modern revelations. Many people either do not know this or they conveniently forget it … Each previously forgiven sin is added to the new one and the whole gets to be a heavy load. Thus when a man has made up his mind to change his life, there must be no turning back. Any reversal, even in a small degree, is greatly to his detriment,” (p. 169, 170). He insists, “Discontinuance of sin must be permanent. The will to do must be strong and kept strengthened,” (p. 176). Remember, “Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. HE would never require anything from his children which was not fro their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal,” (p. 209). Finally, “’Yes,’ I said, ‘but we are commanded to be supermen. Said the Lord, ‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.’ (Matt. 5:48) We are gods in embryo, and the Lord demands perfection of us,’” (p. 286).

Sum: If salvation necessarily requires human collaboration in keeping the commands of God, if those commandments are truly follow-able by humanity via their will, if one cannot be forgiven without repenting when one fails to keep a commandment, and if true repentance means forsaking sin and never returning, then this gospel crushes. Just reflect on your own life for a moment; I grantee you haven’t done this. The mere presence of just one “habitual” or “frequent” sin cancels out your repentance and places the whole of your sin back on you. Kimball notes that humanity has been given the possible condition (keep commands) with allowance of repentance once, then never to return. Yet, in human experience, this is impossible and places a burden of effort so high that is too heavy to carry. It seems to me that this is the very reason why Christ came to die for us, for alone he was perfect and alone he is our rescue. We couldn’t do it.

 

III. Making it Personal

If this is all correct, then how am I (and you?) doing with this understanding of the gospel? There seems to be only three options available in response:

 

a). “I’m not doing what Kimball says” – in that case, you are not forgiven and lost in your sin.

b). “I am doing what Kimball says: – this seem ludicrous given the sheer breadth of potential sins of omission and commission, and depth of our fallen state. Are you really free from forgetting tithing, missing meetings, breaking the Sabbath, failing in family prayer, breaking the Word of Wisdom, lust of the mind and eyes, cursing, serving in the church, angry outbursts, hatred and frustration with those that disagree with you, selfishness and pride? As the saying goes, no one is perfect except Christ.

 

c). “I’m kind of doing what Kimball says” – this is a catchall category. Statements like, “I’m doing the best I can, “I’m trying,” etc. I get this answer more than those who deeply want to follow Christ. However, Kimball has a lot to say to this in his book, and none of it is sympathetic.

i. I’m trying – Kimball says, “One Church member of my acquaintance said, as she drank her coffee: ‘The Lord knows my heart is right and that I have good intentions, and that I will someday get the strength to quit.’ But will one receive eternal life on the basis of his good intentions? Can one enter a country, receive a scholastic degree, and so on, on the strength of good intent unsupported by appropriate action? Samuel Johnson remarked that ‘hell is paved with good intentions.’ The Lord will not translate one’s good hopes and desires and intentions into works. Each of us must dot that for himself,” (p. 8). And, “Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin. To try with a weakness of attitude and effort is to assure failure in the face of Satan’s strong counteracting efforts. What is needed is resolute action. A story will perhaps illustrate this. An army officer called a solider to him and ordered him to take a message to another officer. The solider saluted and said, ‘I’ll try, sir! I’ll try!’ To this the officer responded: ‘I don’t what you tor try, I want you to deliver this message.’ The solider, somewhat embarrassed, now replied: ‘I’ll do the best I can, sir.’ At this the officer, now disgusted, rejoined with some vigor: ‘I don’t want you to try and I don’t want you do ‘do the best you can.’ I want you to deliver this message.’ Now the young solider, straightening to his full height, approached the mater magnificently, as he thought, when he saluted again and said: ‘I’ll do it or die, sir.’ To this the now irate officer responded: ‘I don’t want you to die, and I don’t want you merely to do the best you can, and I don’t want you to try. Now, the request is a reasonable one; the message is important; the distance is not far; you are able-bodied; you can do what I have ordered. Now get out of here and accomplish your mission,’” (p. 164). Finally, “But adults, who have gone through these learning periods, must determine what they will do, then proceed to do it. To ‘try’ is weak. To ‘do the best I can’ is not strong. We must always do better than we can,” (p. 164-65). 

ii. I can do it later in the afterlife – Kimball, “It is true that repentance is always worth while. But spirit world repentance cannot recompense for that which could and should have been done on earth,” (p. 315). He also cites Alma 34:32-35.

iii. Baptism and membership cover me – Kimball notes, “Numerous members of the Church will be disappointed. All will fail of these blessings who fail to live worthy lives, even though the temple ordinances have been done for them,” (p. 246). Why is this? He continues, “Remember this: exaltation is available only to righteous members of the Church of Jesus Christ; only to those who accept the gospel; only to those who have their endowments in holy temples of God and have been sealed for eternity and who then continue to live righteously throughout their lives,” (246). His entire first chapter deals with this point of view, specifically pages 7-14.

iv. God is gracious and will forgive me (despite what Kimball has said about this) – Kimball says, “The Lord’s program is unchangeable. His laws are immutable. They will not be modified. Your opinion or mine does not alter the laws. Many in the world, and even some in the Church, seem to think that eventually the Lord will be merciful and give them the unearned blessing. But the Lord cannot be merciful at the expense of justice,” (p. 249). And, “There are many people who seem to rely solely on the Lord’s mercy rather that on accomplishing their own repentance. One woman rather flippantly said, ‘The Lord knows my intents and that I’d like to give up my bad habits. He will understand and forgive me.’ But the scriptures will not bear this out. The Lord may temper justice with mercy, but he will never supplant it. Mercy can never replace justice. God is merciful, but he is also just,” (p. 358). Finally, “Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for asking. There must be works – many works – and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and a ‘broken heart and contrite spirit.’ It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when,” (p. 324-25).

IV. Sum:

 So, now you know where I’m coming from. Maybe you feel crushed too from all of the works and requirements asked of you just to be saved. So, to sum, I ask, “Does the LDS crush your spirit?” Because I think there is a better understanding of salvation, and that is simply that Jesus paid for your sins on the cross because you couldn’t do it yourself. And that is a gift to you, and it is a gift that will transform your soul and make you want to follow Jesus like you, perhaps, you never have before.

Sincerely, 

Tele

Edited September 30, 2018 by Telemantros

[zil]

1 hour ago, Telemantros said:

“Does the LDS crush your spirit?”

No.

Now some thoughts:

1) Reading The Miracle of Forgiveness without having been a member of the Church for a long time (potentially through the age when it was written) may result in one understanding it in a different way than intended, or a different way than a member will understand it.  (Because of specialized usage the reader isn't aware of, or the absence of context that would otherwise inform one's understanding.)  I recognize that this may seem improbable to an intelligent person who reads and understands the words, but it's true nonetheless.

2) I don't think you will find a modern prophet or apostle who would disagree with the idea that what's important is what you are in the process of becoming.  If you are continually striving to become more Christlike, repenting when you fail, stretching yourself to do a little better than yesterday, then, eventually, you will have repented of all your sins, and become perfectly obedient.  This is expected to take longer than one's mortal life, but it is expected that one will continue along the same path, in the same direction.  As such, if one is doing one's best, the gospel is not crushing.  Of course, one must be honest and not self-deceiving.

I doubt President Kimball would disagree with the above.

I don't know if that helps you any, but that's the gist.  It's been a long time since I read The Miracle of Forgiveness, but I didn't come away from it feeling crushed.  I expect the above explains why.

[let’s roll]

No.

I echo Zil’s good thoughts and add a few of my own.

A hearty amen to your concluding statement that the atonement is a gift which, as we come to understand it, will transform our soul and cause us to want to follow the Savior.  I invite you to continue to search President Kimball’s writings.  I’m confident you’ll find he taught that principle as well.

As to how to understand how faith and works intertwine, i invite you to ponder the Savior’s response to the man who asked what he needed to do to gain eternal life.  The initial response was confirmation by Jesus of the man’s recitation of commandments/works listed in the scriptures.  When the man asserted he had done all those works since his youth and asked “what lack I yet” Jesus gave him an invitation to do a work of faith which the man was unable, at that time, to do.  Was his ability a lack of faith or of works? I trust you’ll agree is was a lack of both.

As to the feeling of being crushed, I guess if I were to feel that way, I’d feel like I was discounting the power of the Atonement.  I invite you to read The Infinite Atonement by Bro. Callister.  It’s revelatory and while you may find it different in tone from how you found Miracle of Forgiveness, I believe the books are harmonious.

Finally there have been a few recent talks on how best to understand the invitation to be perfect.  One by Elder Holland and another by Pres. Eyeing.  I think you’ll find both empowering rather than crushing.

Godspeed to you in what are clearly sincere efforts to follow the Savior.

 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm not sure how anyone can read The Miracle of Forgiveness and miss out entirely on the "Miracle" part.

[lostinwater]

@Telemantros

i think it largely depends on the person, and what's going on around and inside of them at the time.  Some feel crushed, and others feel challenged. i've found many of the former type to be the kind of people who have already pushed themselves to the edges of their endurance.  The crushed feeling comes from being told (usually by someone with good intentions) that their present maximum is insufficient.  

Honestly, i have found people who are good and bad in all the ways that matter both inside and outside TCOJCOLDS.  For that matter, i know atheists who i consider some of the most Christlike people i've ever met.

Beyond that.  i use the word "hate" very rarely, but i'll gladly use it to describe my feelings towards much of the content in and overall tone in this book.  In my opinion, it embodies the most caustic aspects of TCOJCOLDS.  There's a really good reason it's out of print.  Kimball's own son regrets that his father is remembered by so many because of this book.  i find it to be much less about forgiveness than about a wholesale condemnation of sinners.  

"The Miraculously Motivating Power of Shame" seems a more apt title.   Indeed, i've lost friends (some of the best, kindest, most generous people you'll ever meet) because they actually believed that Kimball was right when he said people were better off dead than having "sinned".

Any time i see a copy in a thrift store, i buy it just to get it out of circulation.  

Edited October 1, 2018 by lostinwater

[Just_A_Guy]

A couple of additional observations in addition to the excellent points already made: 

I. 

As I’m sure the OP will agree, there is only one gospel.  There is no “gospel of Spencer Kimball” in opposition to a “gospel of Gordon Hinckley” in opposition to a “gospel of Russell Nelson”, any more than there are gospels of Matthew, John, James, Peter, and Paul standing in opposition to each other.

There are, however, presentations of the gospel according to various individuals; which presentations echo the way the Gospel of Jesus Christ resonates to the individual presenter’s unique personality.  You see this in the Bible, where Paul often (but not always) emphasizes grace whereas Peter and James make much of the need to live a Christian lifestyle. 

Similarly, “The Miracle of Forgiveness” represents one presentation of the gospel according to Spencer W. Kimball.  And it may not even represent Kimball’s complete thoughts on the subject (there is anecdotal evidence that in later years, he acknowledged to close family members that some portions of the book were perhaps a bit more harsh than necessary). 

With that being said, “The Miracle of Forgiveness” resonated deeply with a significant portion of the LDS membership during the era in which it was published.  It was, I think, in many ways a response to the "cheap grace" narrative that had underpinnings in antebellum America (many of the anti-Mormon Missouri terrorists had no problem raping Mormon women Saturday night and then walking into church on Sunday morning and proclaiming themselves "saved"); and that had become especially dominant in American Protestantism after World War 2.  The book's appeal now is somewhat less broad, perhaps in part due to  continually evolving cultural norms and attitudes--it's one thing to call people out for hypocrisy on a standard to which they at least offer lip service; another to persuade them to live by a standard they never accepted in the first place.  Maybe that’s part of the reason that the book is not currently in print.  Of course it's always possible that, just as specific Biblical passages or authors tend to come in and out of fashion within various Christian sects, we may yet find some decades in the future that Kimball’s writings once again seem very timely indeed. 

To address the OP’s question about how to determine “truth”—ultimately truth is revealed to the individual through God Himself.  But the apostles (and, collectively, the church authorities) give us advice that, if followed, will navigate us to a point where we can actually pick up God’s revelations directly and with some measure of reliability.

II. 

What the OP misses—and perhaps, what Kimball may have not presented articulately (or at all—I haven’t read MoF in years)—is that even if we have not yet completely been liberated from the bonds of a character flaw or bad habit; we can still improve.  A person in the throes of addiction can go from relapsing every day, to relapsing every three days, to relapsing once a week; and so on. 

If we don’t, as part of the repentance process, allow ourselves to take an honest look at the spiritual growth we have already gone through via the grace of Christ in spite of our weakness; and if we don’t remember our own divine potential and trust in God to help us change further—then yes, that repeated process of making and breaking resolves can be spiritually exhausting.  But looking at Kimball’s teachings in their totality (above and beyond what he wrote in MoF), I don’t believe that was how he approached the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

III

I see little problem with your “(c)(1)” classification.  The anecdote the OP cites of the coffee-drinking woman illustrates a woman who is not trying.  The anecdote of the soldier Kimball cites, denotes a person who does not believe that fulfillment of the ultimate task is possible--in other words, it describes a person who denies the power of Christ to perfect him; whereas Mormons who struggle with sin do so as a result of Moroni's invitation to "come unto Christ, and be perfected in Him"; confident in an eventual victory through diligence working in conjunction with the grace of Christ. 

Summary: 

Mormonism's take on the Gospel of Jesus Christ strikes me as being different than much of modern orthodox Christianity; in that many orthodox Christians now content themselves with declaring people to be “saved” in their sins during this life; pushing both the need for and possibility of salvation from sin into the hereafter (if at all).  Mormonism, by contrast, steadfastly insists that a) there's no such thing as salvation in sin; b) people can and must be saved from their sins (if only by in part, and by degrees) in this life, and c) that this salvific process in practice represents a joint effort between the penitent and the Savior. 

This is not a process that is supposed to crush us; but it will most certainly break us. It's that way by design--"broken heart and contrite spirit", and all that.  And, to quote a wise man--anyone who says differently is selling something.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Jane_Doe]

@Telemantros Welcome back!  You got a very thoughtful post.   To avoid writing a novel here, I'm going address comments from big picture view point primarily.  If you want me to zoom into any particular part,  I would love to elaborate on any part, so just ask.  I'm also going to break my response up to several posts.

5 hours ago, Telemantros said:

“Does the LDS gospel crush your spirit?”

No, quite the reverse: it lifts me with hope and love.

 

< The part about "Mircle of Forgiveness" >

You remember how I s(and other folks) warned that a lot of people misinterpret the blunt language of the book and instead walk away with the (false) idea of having to be perfect (which is impossible)?  

That seems to be exactly what happened in your case, especially coming from a lack of the big picture foundation (I mean no offense by this, so please don't take any).  I would NEVER recommend this book to an investigator... honestly I won't really recommend it to anyone, it's WAY too frequently misunderstood.

5 hours ago, Telemantros said:

Sum: If salvation necessarily requires human collaboration in keeping the commands of God, if those commandments are truly follow-able by humanity via their will, if one cannot be forgiven without repenting when one fails to keep a commandment, and if true repentance means forsaking sin and never returning, then this gospel crushes. Just reflect on your own life for a moment; I grantee you haven’t done this. The mere presence of just one “habitual” or “frequent” sin cancels out your repentance and places the whole of your sin back on you. Kimball notes that humanity has been given the possible condition (keep commands) with allowance of repentance once, then never to return. Yet, in human experience, this is impossible and places a burden of effort so high that is too heavy to carry. It seems to me that this is the very reason why Christ came to die for us, for alone he was perfect and alone he is our rescue. We couldn’t do it.

< big actual LDS picture> 

God doesn't save a person so they can continue living the exact same sin-loving life they did before.  Faith is not merely saying "yeah I believe I God" and then having every thing about you being to continue kissing Satan check.  No, no.

Another false idea: God wants you to do everything by yourself and only then does He get off his divine butt to do anything.  No no!

Reality: God wants to have a relationship with you.  We loves you and wants to be close to us.  Christ already died to save us.  Faith is a gift from God.  And it's not just saying "yeah I believe", but a change of heart/mind/soul.  This change happens WITH God-- He's working the miracle every step of the way-- heck, it was His Spirit that initially knocked on your heart in the first place, and He's going to keep knocking, keep giving, and keep moving with you as long as you desire that.  It is about the desire.  

You're not fixing/doing anything by yourself- Christ is with you every step off the way.  And this road is not finished by the time your mortal bodies.  Rather Christ's prediction of you continues into the afterlife, resurrection, and beyond.  Perfection pending.  Here are two fantastic sermons on the matter:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/09/his-grace-is-sufficient?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/perfection-pending?lang=eng

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Telemantros said:

If this is all correct, then how am I (and you?) doing with this understanding of the gospel?

With all due respect, you are misunderstanding the LDS view point.  See my earlier post.  It's not about you doing everything by yourself, or things all being done in this life.  It's about the miracle of Christ completely changing you in the big picture every step of the way (not just before your mortal body dies).   

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Telemantros said:

If this is all correct, then how am I (and you?) doing with this understanding of the gospel?

With all due respect, you are totally misunderstanding the LDS view point.  See my earlier post.  It's not about you doing everything by yourself, or things all being done in this life.  It's about the miracle of Christ completely changing you in the big picture every step of the way (not just before your mortal body dies).   

5 hours ago, Telemantros said:

 

 So, now you know where I’m coming from. Maybe you feel crushed too from all of the works and requirements asked of you just to be saved. So, to sum, I ask, “Does the LDS crush your spirit?” Because I think there is a better understanding of salvation, and that is simply that Jesus paid for your sins on the cross because you couldn’t do it yourself. And that is a gift to you, and it is a gift that will transform your soul and make you want to follow Jesus like you, perhaps, you never have before.

LDS 100% believe that Christ did all the saving and paid the price for our sins.  We just don't believe in the idea of "cheap grace" -- that we should say "I'm saved!" and continue to love our wickedness more than Christ.  Such an idea is nothing but a mockery to Christ.   (Note: LDS aren't the only one's in this camp.  In fact, vast majority of Christianity is.)

Edited October 1, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[The Folk Prophet]

16 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

This is not a process that is supposed to crush us; but it will most certainly break us.

Interesting. From a certain point of view, is there a difference.

My initial though in response to the OP was that anyone who thinks the gospel crushes us has never experienced the spiritual rejuvenation that comes from the gospel of repentance, etc. But in light of this comment, perhaps the only true gospel can ever possibly be the one that "crushes" us, and then re-makes us in the image of Christ, through His atonement.

[Just_A_Guy]

10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Interesting. From a certain point of view, is there a difference.

I think so.  I think this is what the Lord is getting at in Matt 21:44/Luke 20:18:  you will break; but whether you also get crushed or not is up to you.  

Much of the modern opposition to MoF revolves around the notion that the Gospel shouldn’t even break us, because there’s nothing really wrong with us as we are.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Fether]

5 hours ago, Telemantros said:

Sum: If salvation necessarily requires human collaboration in keeping the commands of God, if those commandments are truly follow-able by humanity via their will, if one cannot be forgiven without repenting when one fails to keep a commandment, and if true repentance means forsaking sin and never returning, then this gospel crushes. Just reflect on your own life for a moment; I grantee you haven’t done this. The mere presence of just one “habitual” or “frequent” sin cancels out your repentance and places the whole of your sin back on you. Kimball notes that humanity has been given the possible condition (keep commands) with allowance of repentance once, then never to return. Yet, in human experience, this is impossible and places a burden of effort so high that is too heavy to carry. It seems to me that this is the very reason why Christ came to die for us, for alone he was perfect and alone he is our rescue. We couldn’t do it.

 

Repentance isn’t just a step by step process we go through with every sin we have ever committed.

Whrn I was age 8-10, I would often be very in kind to my mother. I don’t know that I ever apologized for each individual time. But what has happened is that I developed a love and respect for my family. I apologized for pain I had caused but the true repentance came with the change of character.

Salvation comes to those that want it and have faith that the way to get it is by living a celestial life. We don’t EARN heaven, we LEARN heaven.

5 hours ago, Telemantros said:

So, now you know where I’m coming from. Maybe you feel crushed too from all of the works and requirements asked of you just to be saved. So, to sum, I ask, “Does the LDS crush your spirit?” Because I think there is a better understanding of salvation, and that is simply that Jesus paid for your sins on the cross because you couldn’t do it yourself. And that is a gift to you, and it is a gift that will transform your soul and make you want to follow Jesus like you, perhaps, you never have before.

 

The book “Miracle of Forgiveness” was not written to be an in depth tutorial on how to repent, but rather a book covering broad aspects of repentance that provided examples of toxins attitude many may have. Reading it as a guide on how to repent would most definitely lead someone to have the struggles you face.

As to your assumption that Spencer W Kimball is trust worthy, I would agree with it but also add the following.

The Book was produced by BOOK CRAFT and not the church. As I absolutely love and enforce books written by Apostles, I would not allow their words to confuse me from officially declared doctrine from the church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not the church if *insert apostle name*. If it lacks the appropriate official church logo, don’t let it confuse you from the simple things of the gospel.

[Jane_Doe]

*It occurs to me that there's an important base question to be asked here first*

@Telemantros, tell us about yourself: what faith background are you coming from?  Are you coming from a background where salvation is thought to be an event that once-and-done? (like Evangelicals for example).   Or are you coming from a background where salvation and sanctification are thought to be a lifelong+ process?

That's a critical piece of background.  For LDS, we don't believe salvation is a once-and-done event (like we don't go around saying "I was saved on July 25, 1993").  Rather, salvation and sanctification/exaltation are thought to be a process where we are continually washed in the blood of the Lamb, continually renewing our covenants with the Lord, and continually becoming more and more like Him.  ALL of this continues through this life AND the next (it's not done at any mortal time point), and it's ALL done with Christ every step of the way.Kimball, assumes his reader is LDS, and understands this and understands Christ's continual role in everything, etc.  A salvation-is-once-and-done reader will inventaably completely misunderstand the entire novel because of this.

 

(I'm going to hold off responding more, because if the miscommunicate is on page 0 in the form of background assumings, we got to talk about that first)

Edited October 1, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[SpiritDragon]

This talk of breaking and crushing under pressure makes me think of diamonds being created, but they'll need heat to. I feel like there's a great analogy about pressure and perhaps a refiners fire that should be worked out... 😋

Perhaps The Miracle of Forgiveness is overly harsh, I too, haven't read it in years. I feel like that is a major part of the point of it though. In order to change one's ways there needs to be recognition that the current pattern is problematic to begin with. I felt the book did a fantastic job of shaking the reader out of the slumber of thinking all is well in Zion into admitting there is great room for improvement. The crushing and guilting as it were serve the purpose to bring about godly sorrow leading to repentance. Repentance is a lifelong process, not a one-time shot. People most certainly will fall short and require continued repentance, but the path they are on is the key. When they mess up do they seek to hide their sins and justify behaviour or do they seek to correct the behaviour and improve themselves?

Let me say that sometimes I do find the gospel to weigh heavily which may be crushing, but when I am properly yoked with the Saviour the load isn't such a burden. He truly does carry the weight.

[Anddenex]

8 hours ago, Telemantros said:

So, now you know where I’m coming from. Maybe you feel crushed too from all of the works and requirements asked of you just to be saved. So, to sum, I ask, “Does the LDS crush your spirit?” Because I think there is a better understanding of salvation, and that is simply that Jesus paid for your sins on the cross because you couldn’t do it yourself. And that is a gift to you, and it is a gift that will transform your soul and make you want to follow Jesus like you, perhaps, you never have before.

 

Sincerely, 

 

Tele

No, the gospel of Jesus Christ does not crush my spirit. 

Well, I am not sure how to put this than bluntly, President Kimball provides a better understanding of salvation and exaltation. Not only does President Kimball already accept what you call a better understanding of salvation, he provides more knowledge.

1) "and that is simply that Jesus paid for your sins on the cross because you couldn’t do it yourself"

President Kimball, "I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that He was crucified for the sins of the world. He is my friend, my Savior, my Lord, and my God." I am pretty sure the crucified for our sins would also mean "paid for your sins on the cross."

President Kimball, "The purging out of sin would be impossible but for the total repentance of the individual and the kind mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ in his atoning sacrifice. Only by these means can man recover, be healed and washed and purged, and still be eligible for the glories of eternity. On the Savior’s great role in this, Helaman reminded his sons of King Benjamin’s comments:

“… There is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come, yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world.” (Hel. 5:9.)

2) "And that is a gift to you, and it is a gift that will transform your soul and make you want to follow Jesus like you, perhaps, you never have before."

President Kimball, "It is because of Heavenly Father’s gift of His Son that all men—past, present, and future—can return to live with Him who is the Father of our spirits. But to insure that that can happen, it was first necessary for Jesus to come to earth in the flesh to teach men by His example the correct way to live and then to willingly give up His life and, in some miraculous way, accept the burden for the sins of mankind."

President Kimball, "[The Savior] died a propitiation for our sins to open the way for our resurrection, to point the way to our perfection of life, to show the way to exaltation. He died purposefully, voluntarily. His birth was humble, his life was perfect, his example was compelling; his death opened doors, and man was offered every good gift and blessing."

President Kimball, "The essence of the miracle of forgiveness is that it brings peace to the previously anxious, restless, frustrated, perhaps tormented soul. In a world of turmoil and contention this is indeed a priceless gift."

President Kimball, "It is not easy to be at peace in today’s troubled world. Necessarily peace is a personal acquisition. … It can be attained only through maintaining constantly a repentant attitude, seeking forgiveness of sins both large and small, and thus coming ever closer to God. For Church members this is the essence of their preparation, their readiness to meet the Savior when he comes. … Those who are ready will be at peace in their hearts. They will be partakers of the blessing the Savior promised to his apostles: “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.” (John 14:27.)"

President Kimball, "[One of the purposes] of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to call people everywhere to repentance. Those who heed the call, whether members or nonmembers of the Church, can be partakers of the miracle of forgiveness. God will wipe away from their eyes the tears of anguish, and remorse, and consternation, and fear, and guilt. Dry eyes will replace the wet ones, and smiles of satisfaction will replace the worried, anxious look."

President Kimball, "What relief! What comfort! What joy! Those laden with transgressions and sorrows and sin may be forgiven and cleansed and purified if they will return to their Lord, learn of him, and keep his commandments. And all of us needing to repent of day-to-day follies and weaknesses can likewise share in this miracle."

The summary provided dumbfounds me as I am not sure how you provided a "better understanding of salvation," did you not read all his words carefully?

 

[Sunday21]

At some point most believers need to begin a personal communication with God. God himself will begin to suggest how to apply the gospel to your life. One needs to be a sincere seeker. Sometimes the message will be to slow down.

[Anddenex]

13 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

Perhaps The Miracle of Forgiveness is overly harsh, I too, haven't read it in years.

When I first read Miracle of Forgiveness I was informed to read the last two chapters first, and then read the whole book all the way through including the last two chapters. The Miracle of Forgiveness was meant for us to "see things are they really are." Or as King Benjamin puts it in Mosiah chapter 4:
 

Quote

 

1 And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had made an end of speaking the words which had been delivered unto him by the angel of the Lord, that he cast his eyes round about on the multitude, and behold they had fallen to the earth, for the fear of the Lord had come upon them.

2 And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.

3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.

4 And king Benjamin again opened his mouth and began to speak unto them, saying: My friends and my brethren, my kindred and my people, I would again call your attention, that ye may hear and understand the remainder of my words which I shall speak unto you.

5 For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen state—

6 I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body—

7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world.

8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

10 And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them.

11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.

 

This is in part why I think @Just_A_Guy nailed this portion, "This is not a process that is supposed to crush us; but it will most certainly break us. It's that way by design--"broken heart and contrite spirit", and all that.  And, to quote a wise man--anyone who says differently is selling something."

When we truly view things as they really are -- our carnal nature and fallen state (which is what President Kimball emphasized) -- it will break our pride, or the truth will hurt and we will deny it.

[NeuroTypical]

That book has caused some folks grief, but my experience was much different.

I had sinned, and prayed for forgiveness, and figured that was good.  I figured this whole "crushing weight of shame" stuff, was just something I had to carry with me the rest of my life, but I was good in God's eyes.   I started hearing maybe that wasn't the case, and I read The Miracle of Forgiveness and understood that I had more to do.  The notion that I had to go confess to my bishop, was indeed a hugely scary notion.  I was terrified.  But I made the appointment.  And was stressed out of my gourd for two weeks waiting for the appointment.  And thought of a million excuses to not show up.  I was still thinking up excuses as I drove to the church, then into the parking lot, then walked into the church, then sat down in the chair, then thought of what to say.  But I did it - I confessed to my bishop.  That kicked off a process that resulted in me dancing out of things feeling lighter than air.  No more crushing weight of shame.

Critics of my church sometimes snarkilly call that book It's a Miracle if you're Forgiven.   They basically prostitute the real meaning of "It's a miracle" to the culturally acceptable meaning, where there are no miracles. 

Well, I have experienced the miracle of forgiveness.  That book made me go deal with my crap in ways that changed my life for the better.

But yeah, there are a heck of a lot of people out there who somehow read the same book and end up feeling crushed.  I don't get it.

[goor_de]

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

That book has caused some folks grief, but my experience was much different.

I had sinned, and prayed for forgiveness, and figured that was good.  I figured this whole "crushing weight of shame" stuff, was just something I had to carry with me the rest of my life, but I was good in God's eyes.   I started hearing maybe that wasn't the case, and I read The Miracle of Forgiveness and understood that I had more to do.  The notion that I had to go confess to my bishop, was indeed a hugely scary notion.  I was terrified.  But I made the appointment.  And was stressed out of my gourd for two weeks waiting for the appointment.  And thought of a million excuses to not show up.  I was still thinking up excuses as I drove to the church, then into the parking lot, then walked into the church, then sat down in the chair, then thought of what to say.  But I did it - I confessed to my bishop.  That kicked off a process that resulted in me dancing out of things feeling lighter than air.  No more crushing weight of shame.

Critics of my church sometimes snarkilly call that book It's a Miracle if you're Forgiven.   They basically prostitute the real meaning of "It's a miracle" to the culturally acceptable meaning, where there are no miracles. 

Well, I have experienced the miracle of forgiveness.  That book made me go deal with my crap in ways that changed my life for the better.

But yeah, there are a heck of a lot of people out there who somehow read the same book and end up feeling crushed.  I don't get it.

there is the concept of emotion.
for example, a piece of music
that's why you're not musical yet
therefore this does not have to be a proof for the holy spirit.
I think that should be well separated
concerning forgiveness and feeling good

[Telemantros]

Wow,  lot of responses, thanks so much for the willingness to help me.

So most people don't like Miracle of Forgiveness, this much is clear! Not very many positive statements at all about it. This is odd to me; there seems to be a discrepancy between the opinion of the high officers of the church and their praise for the book in years past (as I mentioned) vs. this forum's opinion of it. What is a seeker to do? On the one hand, this book is apparently cited in church manuals, proclaimed or alluded to in general conference and speeches, and yet on the other hand everyone on this forum is expressing their dislike or their interpretation (or reinterpretation of it?) - the main one being that salvation is a process with God's help. I'm at a loss though, for this interpretation stands against the four main points Kimball outlined above ... with book citation ... with scriptural support!

Even if we take Kimball's own words and inner logic with a grain of salt, he is still quoting the standard works to make his points. We can't just ignore these. "Perfection is not required," it is noted here in this forum, but he quotes, "... be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect." "It's a process," it is suggested in this forum, but Kimball quotes, "And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God." I appreciate your interpretations of Kimball, and your responses, but as far as I can tell no one has dealt with the actual logic and scriptural support in the book. And Kimball notes, “The Lord’s program is unchangeable. His laws are immutable. They will not be modified. Your opinion or mine does not alter the laws. Many in the world, and even some in the Church, seem to think that eventually the Lord will be merciful and give them the unearned blessing. But the Lord cannot be merciful at the expense of justice,” (p. 249). I am certainly not trying to be argumentative here, i'm simply trying to understand. Hopefully you can see my confusion.

Tele

Edited October 2, 2018 by Telemantros
wording

[Sunday21]

@Telemantros We do not worship Kimball. Just as we do not worship Paul. I personally cannot read Acts without wanting to sharpen an axe. Prophets are fallible. They have biases and limitations. 

[Telemantros]

42 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@Telemantros We do not worship Kimball. Just as we do not worship Paul. I personally cannot read Acts without wanting to sharpen an axe. Prophets are fallible. They have biases and limitations. 

I am glad, I hope/assume you worship God. But that isn’t what I’m asking, I’m wondering if Kimball’s is correct or not as I previously stated.

[The Folk Prophet]

20 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

But yeah, there are a heck of a lot of people out there who somehow read the same book and end up feeling crushed.  I don't get it.

1 Nephi 16:1-3 (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/16?lang=eng)

[Sunday21]

2 hours ago, Telemantros said:

I am glad, I hope/assume you worship God. But that isn’t what I’m asking, I’m wondering if Kimball’s is correct or not as I previously stated.

Not entirely. Did his best.

[The Folk Prophet]

On 9/30/2018 at 6:38 PM, lostinwater said:

i find it to be much less about forgiveness than about a wholesale condemnation of sinners.  

You mean like:

"For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;"

That kind of wholesale condemnation of sinners?

[zil]

3 hours ago, Telemantros said:

So most people don't like Miracle of Forgiveness, this much is clear!

Uh, not really.  @Jane_Doe doesn't like it, @lostinwater doesn't like it, but 8 other responders had either positive or neutral things to say about it.

3 hours ago, Telemantros said:

What is a seeker to do?

Go back and read all the responses, making a separate list of each responder and their general comments, so that your count and evaluation are not derived from an "overall impression" but from a factual record summarizing what was said?

4 hours ago, Telemantros said:

salvation is a process with God's help

This isn't interpretation - this is core Church doctrine.  Every prophet has taught this, Kimball included.

4 hours ago, Telemantros said:

"Perfection is not required," it is noted here in this forum, but he quotes, "... be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect."

The only difference is your perception of the expected timeline vs our understanding of the expected timeline (and perhaps our definitions of the word "perfect").

The key to understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ lies not in a narrow interpretation of the words (even with scriptural quotes) of one book, but of putting everything the prophets teach into the context of the whole, starting with Genesis 1:1 through the 13th Article of Faith (with everything between), adding to them the counsel of modern prophets and the testimony of the Holy Ghost.  Only in the context of the whole can the truth of any given part be understood.

4 hours ago, Telemantros said:

"And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God."

(That's D&C 82:7, for those who wish to see in context and follow footnotes).  And how will you reconcile that with this:

Quote

Matt 18:21 ¶ Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

(Also Luke 17:3-4)  And:

Quote

Matt 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Combined with:

Quote

3 Nephi 27:21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

(and basically all scriptures listed under the heading: Jesus Christ, Exemplar)  Did Christ tell us to forgive until seventy times seven while only being willing to forgive once himself?  I kinda doubt it.  I'll bet President Kimball knew from personal experience that Christ will forgive multiple times, even for the same sin.

Nowhere does it say that one cannot repent the second time, even to the seventy times seventh time - though the repenting may well be more difficult the more often one repeats a sin, until such time as one loses the desire to repent and falls to sin.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 hours ago, Telemantros said:

"Perfection is not required," it is noted here in this forum,

Perfection is required. Anyone that says perfection is not required is blatantly contradicting the scriptures. The commandment is plain. Be ye therefore perfect.

It is through repentance and the miracle of forgiveness by the Atonement of Christ that we can become perfect.

Reasonably, no one expects we'll make it to that state of perfection in life. Reasonably, therefore, we understand that we must keep repenting as we keep making mistakes until we reach perfection someday...likely well beyond this life.

It's not complicated. The command is DON'T SIN. And if you do, REPENT. There's nothing confusing about this.

4 hours ago, Telemantros said:

eventually the Lord will be merciful and give them the unearned blessing

Let's be clear: repentance does not earn blessings. Everyone who receives salvation will not have earned it. Christ paid the price. He earned it.

So, yes, everyone expects the Lord will be merciful and give them unearned blessings...but only on the conditions that He set forth, that we come unto Him and repent of our sins. That is EXCEEDINGLY plain in the scriptures. As plain as day. Repentance isn't some obscure, hard-to-find, only in Kimball's book type of idea. It's repeated again and again in the scriptures. It is, perhaps, the most common command God gives. Repent.

The idea that we must repent or perish isn't Kimball's. Pretending like these ideas are "Kimball" ideas and philosophies only is highly disingenuous.

Christ taught: "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3,5)

Edited October 2, 2018 by The Folk Prophet