A Gospel that Crushes?

[zil]

4 minutes ago, GaleG said:

Moroni 10:32

Here is the text of Moroni 10:32.  The superscripts are mine, and what follows are verses from the New Testament which speak to the things Moroni says:

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Moroni 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ¹, and be perfected in him², and deny yourselves of all ungodliness³; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness^3-again, and love God with all your might, mind and strength⁴, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace⁵ ye may be perfect in Christ^2-again; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ^2-again, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

1

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Matthew 11:28 ¶ Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mark 1:17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

John 1:39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

1, 2

Quote

John 5:39 ¶ Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

2

Quote

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

...lots of others in the NT about man being perfect in Christ - after the 4 Gospels.

1, 3

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Matthew 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Also: Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23

4

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Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Also: Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27

5 (emphasis withheld because I'd have to bold the whole thing - look at the requirements listed to receive grace - "receive him", "believe on his name", "born of God" - but please note that we also believe it is by grace we are saved, and not by works; nonetheless, God requires works - if the works are not required, why the above scriptures?)

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John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 ¶ John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Bible Dictionary entry for Grace

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Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

If we can do all things through Christ, then why feel crushed when he asks us to come unto him; be perfected in him; deny ourselves of all ungodliness; love God with our might, mind, and strength; and deny not the power of God (what power? why the power to strengthen us that we might do these things, and the power to then perfect us through his grace)?  Trust God, for whom all things are possible.

[GaleG]

14 hours ago, zil said:

Here is the text of Moroni 10:32.  The superscripts are mine, and what follows are verses from the New Testament which speak to the things Moroni says:

I think you misread my post when I made a reference to the original mention of
Moroni 10:32 by the thread creator.

The IF statement

... if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your
might, mind and strength,

The THEN statement

"... then is his grace sufficient for you ..."

Nobody in mortal life can satisfy the IF statement so Christ's grace is not
sufficient for them.

From my Catholic background, I remember Christ's grace is sufficient for
me long before I do anything.  This gospel does not crush me.  Moroni's
version does.

Thank you,

Gale

Edited December 8, 2018 by GaleG
added part

[zil]

28 minutes ago, GaleG said:

Nobody in mortal life can satisfy the IF statement so Christ's grace is not
sufficient for them.

My whole post was demonstrating how to accomplish the IF portion, and that this IF portion is mirrored in the New Testament.

14 hours ago, zil said:

If we can do all things through Christ, then why feel crushed when he asks us to come unto him; be perfected in him; deny ourselves of all ungodliness; love God with our might, mind, and strength; and deny not the power of God (what power? why the power to strengthen us that we might do these things, and the power to then perfect us through his grace)?  Trust God, for whom all things are possible.

If you want to feel crushed by Christ's teachings in the NT, I guess you can.  Better would be to feel enabled by those teachings, IMO.

[Jane_Doe]

50 minutes ago, GaleG said:

I think you misread my post when I made a reference to the original mention of
Moroni 10:32 by the thread creator.

The IF statement

... if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your
might, mind and strength,

The THEN statement

"... then is his grace sufficient for you ..."

Nobody in mortal life can satisfy the IF statement so Christ's grace is not
sufficient for them.

From my Catholic background, I remember Christ's grace is sufficient for
me long before I do anything.  This gospel does not crush me.  Moroni's
version does.

Thank you,

Gale

LDS people don't see the Gospel as being crushing at all.  The OP you were quoting here ( @Telemantros) isn't LDS, but rather an investigator who was asking the question based off his understanding.  His personal background was Protestant once-saved-always-saved salvation-is-once-and-done-an-event type.  LDS are neither once-saved-always-saved people, neither or we salvation-is-once-and-done-an-event type of people, so this lead to a LOT of misunderstandings with @Telemantros.  We of course talked them over and got things straightened out that 1) the gospel doesn't crush, and 2) the if/then mentality was applying isn't the LDS thought process.

The LDS mentality is actually much easier to explain to someone coming from a Catholic background (because it's the exact same): we believe that a person comes to Christ over time, and becomes more and more filled with Christ's grace.  Things like being baptized, confirming our faith, etc are steps along the way of a Christian life and the person & Christ further cement their bond.

In regards to Moroni 10:32 specifically, there verse is not saying "you can only do this once you are totally sanctified!"  No, no, rather it's stressing the importance of motivation: that he person is seeking Christ and not to serve the devil.  Throughout the entire process (before, during, and after) Christ is using His magnificent power to fuel the process and help those to seek Him.  

[Tyme]

I read the book years ago. It is not a good book to give a person who has sinned. The book should be given prior to sinning. That means right before or after baptism. I like it so much I wanted it canonized. I wished when I was reading it that I would have been given it before.

[Telemantros]

18 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

LDS are neither once-saved-always-saved people, neither or we salvation-is-once-and-done-an-event type of people, so this lead to a LOT of misunderstandings with @Telemantros.  We of course talked them over and got things straightened out that 1) the gospel doesn't crush, and 2) the if/then mentality was applying isn't the LDS thought process.

I don’t know what I think about this summation. I disagree that I no longer think that the LDS view of salvation does not crush; rather, I think the if/then language is prevelant in your scriptures and remains existentially crushing based off one’s efforts.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Telemantros said:

I don’t know what I think about this summation. I disagree that I no longer think that the LDS view of salvation does not crush; rather, I think the if/then language is prevelant in your scriptures and remains existentially crushing based off one’s efforts.

Then, I guess this faith isn't for you.  You are not one of His sheep.  And when you come to His judgment bar, he will say unto you,"You never knew me.  Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

[Guest]

21 hours ago, GaleG said:

"... if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness..."

"... then is his grace sufficient for you ..."

Nobody in mortal life can satisfy the IF statement so Christ's grace is not
sufficient for them.

I'm going to ascribe this misunderstanding to the use of mortal tongues and dissecting single verses without seeing the whole picture.

Nothing in the Doctrine of Christ says you need to be perfect today.  As you say, such a thing is impossible for most of us.  "Deny yourself of all ungodliness" means to make a decision and commitment to get away from it and turn to God.  The actual accomplishment is a journey not a single moment in time.

Consider being on a road.  At one end, we have the things of God.  The other end, we have the things of worldliness and the things of the devil.  Where are we on this road?  It doesn't really matter.  The Moroni verse is not about that.  It is about which direction we are facing.  Are we moving towards God or the other direction?  If we are facing God and moving towards him, we have denied ourselves of ungodliness. 

It is not about being perfect, but perfect in our efforts.  To me, this simply means to get up each time you fall.  Endure to the end means to never stop getting up because we will keep falling.  The devil doesn't win each time we fall.  He only wins when we don't get up again.

If we actually had to make it to the end of the road before we were saved, what on earth is the "grace" for anyway?

[Telemantros]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Then, I guess this faith isn't for you.  You are not one of His sheep.  And when you come to His judgment bar, he will say unto you,"You never knew me.  Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

That’s not what the LDS missionaries have told me when I ask them about my current status.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 hours ago, Telemantros said:

I think the if/then language is prevelant in your scriptures and remains existentially crushing based off one’s efforts.

You mean to say we believe we cannot continue on in our sinful ways and still be saved?

I find that interesting. Do you also consider it crushing that you cannot sit around in your underwear eating Cheetos and donuts all day and not be thin and rich?

Edited December 9, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, Telemantros said:

That’s not what the LDS missionaries have told me when I ask them about my current status.

The point isn't that Carb is judging you. And the missionaries cannot judge you either. That's between you and God. The point is that IF you choose to go on in iniquity THEN God will say, "Depart. You never knew me".

[Telemantros]

25 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You mean to say we believe we cannot continue on in our sinful ways and still be saved?

 I find that interesting. Do you also consider it crushing that you cannot sit around in your underwear eating Cheetos and donuts all day and not be thin and rich?

No, that’s not what I mean. My point is that if one’s salvation is based off their effort in conjunction with Christ, then that’s a load I would say cannot be accomplished. As for the underwear comment, that’s not what I believe either.

22 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The point isn't that Carb is judging you. And the missionaries cannot judge you either. That's between you and God. The point is that IF you choose to go on in iniquity THEN God will say, "Depart. You never knew me".

It would seem very much that he was, at least his launguage selection seems to indicate as such “you are not” is a prescriptive phrase. This, is not, again what the LDS missionaries have told me.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Telemantros

[The Folk Prophet]

35 minutes ago, Telemantros said:

No, that’s not what I mean. My point is that if one’s salvation is based off their effort in conjunction with Christ, then that’s a load I would say cannot be accomplished. As for the underwear comment, that’s not what I believe either.

You say that's not what you mean and then proceed to say exactly what I mean. Not sure we're communicating here.

Let me try clarification. The idea here...and I'll quote you with emphasis, is that "one’s salvation is based off their effort in conjunction with Christ,"

Do you really believe that putting forth effort is a load that cannot be accomplished?

35 minutes ago, Telemantros said:

It would seem very much that he was, at least his launguage selection seems to indicate as such “you are not” is a prescriptive phrase. This, is not, again what the LDS missionaries have told me.

You're skipping the "then" that precedes his comments. We're dealing with if/then equations here, remember?

Edited December 9, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Jane_Doe]

5 hours ago, Telemantros said:

I don’t know what I think about this summation. I disagree that I no longer think that the LDS view of salvation does not crush; rather, I think the if/then language is prevelant in your scriptures and remains existentially crushing based off one’s efforts.

Ok, so still got a way to go for understanding

The salvation-is-a-once-and-done event mentality is a hard one to shake.  

44 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The point isn't that Carb is judging you. And the missionaries cannot judge you either. That's between you and God. The point is that IF you choose to go on in iniquity THEN God will say, "Depart. You never knew me".

This is a HUGELY important clarification.  Knowing @Carborendum as I do (and LDS beliefs), this clarification is accurate.  Though I can totally totally see how  @Carborendum's original comment could be misunderstood as a "here and now" comment.  

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Grunt]

47 minutes ago, Telemantros said:

No, that’s not what I mean. My point is that if one’s salvation is based off their effort in conjunction with Christ, then that’s a load I would say cannot be accomplished. As for the underwear comment, that’s not what I believe either.

It would seem very much that he was, at least his launguage selection seems to indicate as such “you are not” is a prescriptive phrase. This, is not, again what the LDS missionaries have told me.

What have the missionaries told you?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Telemantros said:

That’s not what the LDS missionaries have told me when I ask them about my current status.

Well, we don't know what the missionaries told you that you misinterpreted, do we?  And we also don't know what trick of wording you used to elicit said response from them to give you an inaccurate impression.

1 hour ago, Telemantros said:

No, that’s not what I mean. My point is that if one’s salvation is based off their effort in conjunction with Christ, then that’s a load I would say cannot be accomplished. As for the underwear comment, that’s not what I believe either.

It would seem very much that he was, at least his launguage selection seems to indicate as such “you are not” is a prescriptive phrase. This, is not, again what the LDS missionaries have told me.

Well, then try again.  Because bottom line from your entire OP (yes, it was quite long and I read it) was that Christ doesn't require anyone to repent to gain salvation.

You dressed it up in kind phrases and nice words and all that.  But that really was your bottom line.  The requirement to actually repent of sins is "crushing".

So, if you meant something else, you'll have to try again.  Because that is really all you said.

[GaleG]

On 12/8/2018 at 12:56 PM, Jane_Doe said:

In regards to Moroni 10:32 specifically, there verse is not saying "you can only do this once you are totally sanctified!"  No, no, rather it's stressing the importance of motivation: that he person is seeking Christ and not to serve the devil.  Throughout the entire process (before, during, and after) Christ is using His magnificent power to fuel the process and help those to seek Him.

Thank you Jane.

[GaleG]

On 12/9/2018 at 9:46 AM, Carborendum said:

Nothing in the Doctrine of Christ says you need to be perfect today.  As you say, such a thing is impossible for most of us.  "Deny yourself of all ungodliness" means to make a decision and commitment to get away from it and turn to God.  The actual accomplishment is a journey not a single moment in time.

Does this mean Christ's grace will only be sufficient for me at the end of my journey?

[Jane_Doe]

18 minutes ago, GaleG said:

Does this mean Christ's grace will only be sufficient for me at the end of my journey?

God's grace works with you the ENTIRE time.  

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, GaleG said:

Does this mean Christ's grace will only be sufficient for me at the end of my journey?

The scriptures tell us: "After all we can do."  Christ balances justice and mercy.  And we all pray for the truth of mercy as we acknowledge the truth of justice.

Is this for our life as a whole?  Or is it every day?  It's both.

The verse I quoted is

Quote

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

  --  2 Nephi 25:23

Notice there are two things that Nephi wants to persuade people to do.

• Believe in Christ
• Be reconciled to God

These MUST be done together or else it is like one hand clapping.  We cannot be reconciled to God without believing in Christ.  And believing in Christ while never seeking to be reconciled to God misses the point of the Atonement.

We generally think we know what believing in Christ means.  But the variety of Christian sects seem to indicate that we do not.  Or at least, there is disagreement. To me, I believe in Christ when I trust that He knows when I've done my best.  I believe in Christ when I know that His Atonement is sufficient for me as I go to Him.  I don't expect Him to come to me.  I do everything I can to go to Him.

To me the "reconciled to God" is when we

• To turn to Him.
• Choose His ways and obey His commandments.
• WHEN we fall (not if we fall) we will seek His strength to help us get back up again.

His grace is in every step we take.