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25 minutes ago, iamdiamd said:

Porn does not have anything to do with the wife.

Like going to work has nothing to do with the wife?  Like mowing the lawn has nothing to do with the wife?  Like serving in a calling has nothing to do with the wife?  Like shaving and showering have nothing to do with the wife?  Like keeping covenants has nothing to do with the wife? etc.

See:

(There's a difference between "nothing to do with" and "not the fault of" and "not a rejection of".)

Don't get the "not a rejection of" bit, though:  Hmm, let's see, I can satisfy my sexual (or whatever you want to call them) urges via porn or intimacy with my wife.  Hmm.  Let me think.  Yeah, I think porn this time.  By definition, that is a rejection of the wife (at least for that instance) - whether it's because you like the porn better, because it does something for you that intimacy with your wife doesn't do, whether it's temporary (you are intimate with your wife sometimes, just not exclusively), or permanent (no interest in intimacy with your wife for years because porn's better), it's still the dictionary definition of rejection (reject: "dismiss as inadequate, inappropriate, or not to one's taste").

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1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Why is it that LDS women equate cheating with their husbands not loving them?   Did you really just ask that?

And yes, porn is cheating, as clearly stated by Christ Himself.  This isn't "LDS culture" thing, but about following Christ.  

Yes, porn is an addiction.  So are other forms of infidelity.  And while the addicts motivation may have nothing to do with lack of affection toward their spouse, that addiction does indeed warp the addicts brainwaves, how they view/treat their spouse, and shatter the spouse's self esteem.  

Hey @Lost Boy, your wife is sex with random men.  But there's no emotional attachment at all.  I wish you don't take it personally.  Just keep loving her the exact same as when you thought she was faithful to you.  Don't say how her for the continual affairs hurt you.  Just ignore the culture that says she should only be yours and not continually have sex with random dudes. 

(the above is me making a point, in case that wasn't obvious).  Yes we should always love any child of God.  But that doesn't mean denying that horrible sins bring horrible pain.

Are not the husbands self esteem already shattered when their wives reject them?  Isn't that often the reason men turn to porn?  At first when they get married they get lots of sex and love and then it gets shut off.  Wife is fine with once a week but the guy wants more and doesn't understand why his wife doesn't love him as much anymore.  I am not saying this is a good reason, but I would dare venture that this is more what happens than any other reason.    And then the wife decides maybe she needs more, but the husband is now addicted.  

The woman isn't at fault.  It isn't her fault that she doesn't want sex and it is not his fault he does.  It leads to a terrible misunderstanding.  He takes the lack of affection as a lack of love.  Basically feels rejected.  He doesn't understand her and she doesn't understand him all the while he is stuck with this desire for sex.  I doubt most women really understand that high sex drive.  It truly sucks...  you got a beautiful wife who you love and want to be with and she has a headache....  not tonight...  not tonight again and again....  Why? why?  why?  pretty quick in his mind he turns that into she doesn't love me.  

It really goes both ways.  he feels she not provided the love and after he starts watching porn, she feels he doesn't love.  And certainly he doesn't love her as he used to.  Part of that is that he had been rejected so often that he hurts inside and part is due to the porn addiction.  Of course on her side, she doesn't think she did anything wrong, because she hasn't, but she certainly doesn't understand what is going on inside his head.  She is happy as a lark not having sex and he is raging with hormones with no outlet.  It is a bad situation.

He blames her for not having sex with him and she blames him for not loving her and breaking commandments.  

And yes, I am giving the guys perspective.  I won't begin to claim I have any good insight into the female mind.  And that is often part of the issue is lack of good communication.

As for the cheating wife....  If the husband isn't providing sexual fulfilment for her, if he is unaffectionate.  I can certainly understand why she would.  And no, I would not really feel sorry for the guy if he isn't giving his wife affection.

So back to you original question...  did I just ask that.  Yes, I did.  I certainly understand why the woman feels the way she does.  But I am not sure women really understand what the man is going through.  It is a true battle not to give into the physical urges and to stay true to the commandments.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if both sexes could get into the brain of the other, things would probably be a lot different.

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There are some hard feelings flying around this thread. 

I think the problem is that people equate someone watching pornography more with breaking marriage vows than with the level of sin it truly is.

Pornography was NOT one of the ten commandments per se, but not looking upon a woman and lusting after her in your heart from the HIGHER law that the Lord gave. 

In the same light, calling your brother a Fool or Raka is NOT equivalent of murder and you will not face the consequences of murder for doing so, but it IS an equivalent to it under the HIGHER Law.

Just as we do not excommunicate people for calling their brother's and sisters names, we normally do not excommunicate someone for looking at pornography (which is a good thing because sometimes what we qualify as such is personal opinion.  IN MY OPINION, there are MANY MORMON woman who read and watch pornography by watching Nudity or language in R-rated or other films, or reading smutty romance novels and other ways.  There are many Mormon men who do similar things [and I'd say a higher percentage of them].  Both feel no thought that they are actually doing the same as those who watch hardcore pornography.  To me, pornography is pornography and it is excessively prevalent in our society).

In this, the ONLY reason to be hurt by one who views pornography (if it is ONLY this) is because one CHOOSES to be hurt.  it is a choice.  In many instances we are so caught up pointing out the mote in another's eye that we do not notice the beam in our own.

The sin closest to one who is addicted to pornography is that of one who is addicted to other items.   There are differences, but that is perhaps the closest one can compare it to.

If one was addicted to smoking, coffee, or alcohol, how many wives would consider putting their husbands in a friend zone, OR vice versa (husband putting their wives in the friend zone)?  (and there are many who do this as well).

Just because one is addicted to something does NOT mean that love does not exist, and to void one's feelings simply due to their spouse being involved with an addiction to me is on par, if not as great a sin as the one suffering.  Just like pornography could be the beatitudes equivalent of adultery, shunning or considering one vile in their marriage is comparable to the Higher Law's version of murder in my opinion.

However, the LORD is aware of our weaknesses, and thus divorce is allowed for all manner of disagreements in our day.  Originally it was ONLY for those who were physically breaking the commandments (such as TRUE adultery or fornication).

Still, whether it is a wife or a husband (and there is a great deal of confusion on this in this thread, as many seem to think it is ONLY men who suffer from this affliction, FAR MORE woman suffer than people would think, and it is not of the soft novel variety but just as terrible and harmful as that which men may suffer from) who suffers from this terrible addiction, just like other addictions it can lead to greater sins.

An Alcoholic may be led to abuse spouse or family, or other sins.  Addictions can lead to greater and more terrible sins.  An individual addicted to pornography may go on to commit affairs (both emotional of physical) or to do other sins that break the law of chastity even more and are worse than what they did before.  As we think, so we become.

I think pornography is a great plague on our culture today.  It is a terrible sin that is prevalent in our society.  HOWEVER, in the church I think we also suffer a plague of wives not loving their husbands and husbands not loving their wives.  They forget the second great commandment (the first being to love their Lord their God) to the one that they've pledged their deepest love to.  It is not just from one having an addiction, but from all manner of things that are considered non-essential to a marriage before the Lord.  These are things such as financial difficulties or simply not agreeing on various views.  This "falling out of love" matter is perhaps the GREATEST plague in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints today.  It speaks of how we do not follow the two great commandments given to us by the Lord, and instead follow the trends of the world.  I find this even MORE prevalent in the church today.

If we turn it around and a man said that his wife cleaned the house every day, made him dinner, showed that she loved him and expressed that to him every time she saw him, praised her husband, washed his clothes, bore his children, mowed his lawn, kept his garden, kissed him when he left the house and came home, and never even spoke to another man, what would we think of her?  She posts pictures on her facebook, talks only good things about her husband, will not even be found in the same room with another man when her husband is not present, and serves him as best she is able, what type of wife is she? 

Then, her husband says he does not love her...what would we think of her husband. 

Then, if her husband wants a divorce or says she is merely his friend after all that sacrifice and loyalty on her part, what would we say of that husband.  When he says it is because she watches pornography on her computer while he is at work and the children are at school, after all that she does otherwise...would we condone his actions and say he is justified at dumping his wife like this?

This happens from men towards women in the Church as well.

If it is NOT appropriate for a Man to do this, it is ALSO inappropriate for a Woman to do this.

That said, the Lord allows for weakness in our day and many women AND men are often offended by various types of actions (pornography is just one of many, more times it is of financial difficulties) in their marriages.  It can be hard for one to continually forgive a spouse of a repeated sin (which is addictions).  I see very similar trends between those who are addicted to pornography and those who are addicted to alcohol.  Both are big reasons that wives or husbands divorce.

I also agree that dealing with a spouse with such addictions can be a VERY HARD thing.  Spencer W. Kimball wrote about this and others have talked about these sins and how they can terribly affect a marriage and the marriage relationship.

In such a situation, being as Christ and doing as he would can be incredibly difficult, and for some, impossible.  It can be a tragic situation on BOTH sides of the marriage and sympathy should be had for all involved.  Some spouses stay married, but due to the repeated offenses of the one addicted, feel like they are only going through the actions without any true love in the marriage.  The one offended feels that their spouse puts their love of the addiction above THAT of their own love to them.  At the same time, their spouse (who hopefully still loves their spouse even if they are addicted to other things) may want to quit the addiction, may love their husband or wife tremendously, but cannot seem to quite their addiction.  It can be an incredibly hard and trying situation and many times neither one can see when it will be overcome or done with.

it is a hard thing to deal with in a marriage.  The best solution is the same as with many solutions.  To forgive and to love.  It is the same thing that the Lord will do for us if we sin in any other sin, but doing this, especially for an extended period over the same things over and over again can be taxing to some, and seem like a very hard and difficult path.  However, this is the best solution for anyone.

It is not just relegated to those who are married, but also to those who have children or relatives in the same situation.  If one has a husband or wife who has this problem, chances are that they will have a child that will face this.  I find it TRAGIC that a mother or father would isolate a child or feel the same way, BUT, I find it they do it to their spouse, invariably they will act the SAME WAY to a child.  This, unfortunately often drives a child (though older) away form the family and the church at times.  Instead of that child talking to the Bishop to try to be helped, they talk to the Bishop because they were forced to and this leads them to hate the Bishop, their parents, and by association, the church.

Fortunately, this does not always happen, but it DOES occur simply because instead of approaching them with love, we approach it with hate and disgust.

We may be fortunate not to have to deal with this in our immediate families, but if our families are large enough, it is possible that we may deal with it in a brother or sister or neice or nephew.

I have several daughters who I won't go into their problems.  However, if I had a son-in-law who treated my daughter harshly because of a problem like this, I WOULD BE TEMPTED to act in a VERY UNCHRISTLIKE manner.  If they did worse and wanted a divorce, acting Christlike in that situation would be excessively difficult for me.  I'd want to crush that son-in-law without mercy.  I would feel very angry.

In this, if I would feel this way about a Son-in-law doing that to my daughters, I must thus also say that we should treat each other equally, and thus I cannot say it is right for a wife to treat her husband in this way either.

I know this can be a very difficult thing to go through and there are feelings that we've been brought up with to feel betrayed by someone with this sort of addiction.  HOWEVER, it is a CHOICE to feel this way.  We must see that we are not the ones performing the greater sin and the greater betrayal in our lives because of our feelings.  I will not say it is easy (most times it is not), or that it the path onwards will be simple (as it often is not).  I can only say that each person has a mother and a father that loves them dearly and would want others to love their child as much as they do.  To love each other as the Lord loves us is the BEST answer, but many times may not seem the easiest.

 

Edited by JohnsonJones

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There are many good things on the Church's website; I disagree with some of the terms as used in common usage.

I subscribe to much of what this guy states:

http://www.thecleanslate.org/faqs/

After having my reckoning with God and my conversion. I do not agree with the addiction or recovery model that is banded about.

"Shame leads us to believe that because we did something bad, we are bad. Guilt helps us to recognize that while we are good people, we made bad decisions."

I do not agree with the above statement.  Just because one is wicked does not mean that everything one does is an evil act.  However, if one is spending multiple hours every day looking at two people (or more) committing one of the most intimate acts known to man or fantasizing about foreign flesh, that is a deep, deep indication of where our heart is at.  That is an indication that our heart is not a good heart, it is a wicked heart-it is desiring sin-regardless of the reasons for desiring that sin.  Just because one is wicked, does not mean good cannot come from that person. It just means that in their heart they desire sin and wickedness.  And we all have some bit of evil desires and intents in our heart. The man who looks at porn once a month is at a vastly different level than one who looks at it every night.

There is an idea (and it emanates from the top-so I don't blame people for latching onto it), that we are all good people who just have problems.  That all we need to do is stop behavior. That behavior is all that matters.  It's a false idea-it is not supported by scripture.  The heart is where everything is located.  Change your heart to desire something different and the behavior will naturally stop. 

No we live in an extremely wicked, wicked society which has lost almost all it's moorings to a God-centered life. You can't claim we live in a wicked society, wherein pornography runs rampant, broken homes are everywhere, men and women have lost their natural affection for each and then claim that the people who commit those wicked acts are just good people who make bad decisions.

It's a way of reducing the gravity of personal responsibility and softening the very true nature of sin, wickedness and ultimately repentance to God and turning to live a righteous life.

I can't tell you how honestly easy it becomes to stop . . .once your heart is changed.

Progress Begins with a Change of Heart

We often look for quick, simple solutions. However, the road to healing isn’t about quick fixes—it’s about living true principles that lead to a change of heart.

Absolutely agree 100% with the above statement from the website.

 

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17 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

There are some hard feelings flying around this thread. 

I think the problem is that people equate someone watching pornography more with breaking marriage vows than with the level of sin it truly is.

Pornography was NOT one of the ten commandments per se, but not looking upon a woman and lusting after her in your heart from the HIGHER law that the Lord gave. 

In the same light, calling your brother a Fool or Raka is NOT equivalent of murder and you will not face the consequences of murder for doing so, but it IS an equivalent to it under the HIGHER Law.

Just as we do not excommunicate people for calling their brother's and sisters names, we normally do not excommunicate someone for looking at pornography (which is a good thing because sometimes what we qualify as such is personal opinion.  IN MY OPINION, there are MANY MORMON woman who read and watch pornography by watching Nudity or language in R-rated or other films, or reading smutty romance novels and other ways.  There are many Mormon men who do similar things [and I'd say a higher percentage of them].  Both feel no thought that they are actually doing the same as those who watch hardcore pornography.  To me, pornography is pornography and it is excessively prevalent in our society).

In this, the ONLY reason to be hurt by one who views pornography (if it is ONLY this) is because one CHOOSES to be hurt.  it is a choice.  In many instances we are so caught up pointing out the mote in another's eye that we do not notice the beam in our own.

The sin closest to one who is addicted to pornography is that of one who is addicted to other items.   There are differences, but that is perhaps the closest one can compare it to.

If one was addicted to smoking, coffee, or alcohol, how many wives would consider putting their husbands in a friend zone, OR vice versa (husband putting their wives in the friend zone)?  (and there are many who do this as well).

Just because one is addicted to something does NOT mean that love does not exist, and to void one's feelings simply due to their spouse being involved with an addiction to me is on par, if not as great a sin as the one suffering.  Just like pornography could be the beatitudes equivalent of adultery, shunning or considering one vile in their marriage is comparable to the Higher Law's version of murder in my opinion.

However, the LORD is aware of our weaknesses, and thus divorce is allowed for all manner of disagreements in our day.  Originally it was ONLY for those who were physically breaking the commandments (such as TRUE adultery or fornication).

Still, whether it is a wife or a husband (and there is a great deal of confusion on this in this thread, as many seem to think it is ONLY men who suffer from this affliction, FAR MORE woman suffer than people would think, and it is not of the soft novel variety but just as terrible and harmful as that which men may suffer from) who suffers from this terrible addiction, just like other addictions it can lead to greater sins.

An Alcoholic may be led to abuse spouse or family, or other sins.  Addictions can lead to greater and more terrible sins.  An individual addicted to pornography may go on to commit affairs (both emotional of physical) or to do other sins that break the law of chastity even more and are worse than what they did before.  As we think, so we become.

I think pornography is a great plague on our culture today.  It is a terrible sin that is prevalent in our society.  HOWEVER, in the church I think we also suffer a plague of wives not loving their husbands and husbands not loving their wives.  They forget the second great commandment (the first being to love their Lord their God) to the one that they've pledged their deepest love to.  It is not just from one having an addiction, but from all manner of things that are considered non-essential to a marriage before the Lord.  These are things such as financial difficulties or simply not agreeing on various views.  This "falling out of love" matter is perhaps the GREATEST plague in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints today.  It speaks of how we do not follow the two great commandments given to us by the Lord, and instead follow the trends of the world.  I find this even MORE prevalent in the church today.

If we turn it around and a man said that his wife cleaned the house every day, made him dinner, showed that she loved him and expressed that to him every time she saw him, praised her husband, washed his clothes, bore his children, mowed his lawn, kept his garden, kissed him when he left the house and came home, and never even spoke to another man, what would we think of her?  She posts pictures on her facebook, talks only good things about her husband, will not even be found in the same room with another man when her husband is not present, and serves him as best she is able, what type of wife is she? 

Then, her husband says he does not love her...what would we think of her husband. 

Then, if her husband wants a divorce or says she is merely his friend after all that sacrifice and loyalty on her part, what would we say of that husband.  When he says it is because she watches pornography on her computer while he is at work and the children are at school, after all that she does otherwise...would we condone his actions and say he is justified at dumping his wife like this?

This happens from men towards women in the Church as well.

If it is NOT appropriate for a Man to do this, it is ALSO inappropriate for a Woman to do this.

That said, the Lord allows for weakness in our day and many women AND men are often offended by various types of actions (pornography is just one of many, more times it is of financial difficulties) in their marriages.  It can be hard for one to continually forgive a spouse of a repeated sin (which is addictions).  I see very similar trends between those who are addicted to pornography and those who are addicted to alcohol.  Both are big reasons that wives or husbands divorce.

I also agree that dealing with a spouse with such addictions can be a VERY HARD thing.  Spencer W. Kimball wrote about this and others have talked about these sins and how they can terribly affect a marriage and the marriage relationship.

In such a situation, being as Christ and doing as he would can be incredibly difficult, and for some, impossible.  It can be a tragic situation on BOTH sides of the marriage and sympathy should be had for all involved.  Some spouses stay married, but due to the repeated offenses of the one addicted, feel like they are only going through the actions without any true love in the marriage.  The one offended feels that their spouse puts their love of the addiction above THAT of their own love to them.  At the same time, their spouse (who hopefully still loves their spouse even if they are addicted to other things) may want to quit the addiction, may love their husband or wife tremendously, but cannot seem to quite their addiction.  It can be an incredibly hard and trying situation and many times neither one can see when it will be overcome or done with.

it is a hard thing to deal with in a marriage.  The best solution is the same as with many solutions.  To forgive and to love.  It is the same thing that the Lord will do for us if we sin in any other sin, but doing this, especially for an extended period over the same things over and over again can be taxing to some, and seem like a very hard and difficult path.  However, this is the best solution for anyone.

It is not just relegated to those who are married, but also to those who have children or relatives in the same situation.  If one has a husband or wife who has this problem, chances are that they will have a child that will face this.  I find it TRAGIC that a mother or father would isolate a child or feel the same way, BUT, I find it they do it to their spouse, invariably they will act the SAME WAY to a child.  This, unfortunately often drives a child (though older) away form the family and the church at times.  Instead of that child talking to the Bishop to try to be helped, they talk to the Bishop because they were forced to and this leads them to hate the Bishop, their parents, and by association, the church.

Fortunately, this does not always happen, but it DOES occur simply because instead of approaching them with love, we approach it with hate and disgust.

We may be fortunate not to have to deal with this in our immediate families, but if our families are large enough, it is possible that we may deal with it in a brother or sister or neice or nephew.

I have several daughters who I won't go into their problems.  However, if I had a son-in-law who treated my daughter harshly because of a problem like this, I WOULD BE TEMPTED to act in a VERY UNCHRISTLIKE manner.  If they did worse and wanted a divorce, acting Christlike in that situation would be excessively difficult for me.  I'd want to crush that son-in-law without mercy.  I would feel very angry.

In this, if I would feel this way about a Son-in-law doing that to my daughters, I must thus also say that we should treat each other equally, and thus I cannot say it is right for a wife to treat her husband in this way either.

I know this can be a very difficult thing to go through and there are feelings that we've been brought up with to feel betrayed by someone with this sort of addiction.  HOWEVER, it is a CHOICE to feel this way.  We must see that we are not the ones performing the greater sin and the greater betrayal in our lives because of our feelings.  I will not say it is easy (most times it is not), or that it the path onwards will be simple (as it often is not).  I can only say that each person has a mother and a father that loves them dearly and would want others to love their child as much as they do.  To love each other as the Lord loves us is the BEST answer, but many times may not seem the easiest.

 

I am going to say I like what you say here, but I will disagree a bit on the part about feelings being a choice.

When I found out about my wife have an emotional affair, I was devastated.  I felt sad, lonely, betrayed, the whole nine yards.  I don't think there was much choice in me feeling this way.  I didn't want to feel that way, but I did.  But what I did find was that through learning to love my spouse again that I was able to overcome those feelings.

I think the choice is how we act on those feelings.   I don't think many women can help but feel betrayed.  I don't think it really is a choice.  I do believe there is a choice in continuing to feel betrayed. When a spouse is unfaithful in any way I think there is an initial shock along with any number of feelings.  It is after that we must take a step back and start processing what is taking place with our mind and not our heart.  This can be very difficult, but I think it is a good way to start working on ourselves on how best to deal with the situation.

There are many that say that unfaithfulness can't be forgiven.  There will always be a lack of trust.  I say that is utter nonsense.  It is an evil lie.  If we are unfaithful and repent, Christ will forgive us.  I believe that having us whole and with him brings him great joy.  I believe the same is true for us when a spouse is unfaithful.  Of course they have to do their best to repent, but it is truly up to us to forgive.  And that forgiving is not particularly easy, but through loving that person, it can be done.  It should be done.

I really didn't know what to do when I found out about my wife and so I prayed and prayed and I go as strong of an impression as I have ever gotten that I was to love her and forgive her.  I was hurt and broken wondered why I should have to do those things.  She was the one that betrayed me.  But after following the promptings, I know now why I had to do it.  It really was the only way back.  It was bitter medicine, but I am truly grateful that I did.  I have my wife back.  She still isn't attending church, but I didn't expect that she would.  I had also gotten a strong impression that it would probably be a few years until she reaches that point and that there are things in her life she still needs to deal with.  

The point is that I don't think we always get to choose what we feel.  But I think we have great tools to deal with grief and pain.  Christ has shown us how.  The world tells us not to.  That is our choice.

Edit..

She still believes this other guy is her twin flame.  But I know that she loves me and wants to be with me.  I don't think this is far from a couple where the husband is watching porn.  Yes, there is a part of him that he is not giving to his wife.  but I think he can love her even though he is addicted.  And it is very clear that those who have an addiction and have loving support are far more likely to be able to beat it.  Christ would be there. Hopefully his loved ones would be there for him.  It isn't easy, but it is the quickest and best way out.  It is the quickest and best way to heal the wounds.

Is it fair that the woman have to forgive and love her addicted husband?  Absolutely not.  Is it fair that Christ love us as sinners?  Nope.  But the reward in loving the sinner is that there is great joy when the sinner stops sinning and returns.  Not a lot of reward in dumping and running.  Sometimes it is warranted, but I think in most cases it is not.

Edited by Lost Boy

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13 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

Lol. I think she means looking upon a person to lust after them.

I doubt most men who watch porn are lusting after the women.  To me lust infers a desire to be with that person.  I don't think that is what generally happens with porn.  I think wives think their husbands want to be with the porn star.  I don't think that is the case.  I don't think the men typically have any desire to be with anyone other than their wife.  At least not at first.  It certainly can lead to other desires if the love in the marriage completely vanishes.  

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3 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I doubt most men who watch porn are lusting after the women.  To me lust infers a desire to be with that person.  I don't think that is what generally happens with porn.  I think wives think their husbands want to be with the porn star.  I don't think that is the case.  I don't think the men typically have any desire to be with anyone other than their wife.  At least not at first.  It certainly can lead to other desires if the love in the marriage completely vanishes.  

I understand that you are talking about emotional connection. I am referring to lusting after a woman's body; whether you want to be emotionally connected to her has nothing to do with you looking at her flesh and masturbating. It is still lusting.

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4 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

I understand that you are talking about emotional connection. I am referring to lusting after a woman's body; whether you want to be emotionally connected to her has nothing to do with you looking at her flesh and masturbating. It is still lusting.

  

To Lust - have a very strong sexual desire for someone

I just don't think that is the case for most men who watch porn.  Maybe I am wrong here.  But I think most men who watch porn would much rather be with their wife and fantasize about being with their wife.  If they are lusting, it is more lusting for the person who isn't interested in being with them at the moment.  

There is zero emotional connection and really no physical desire to be with the woman either.  It is more about getting rid of the sexual desire.  I really doubt he wants to be with any of them in most cases.  He would much rather be with his wife.

And I speak as if it is the wife's fault.  It isn't.  But it isn't his fault that he has strong sexual desires either.  It isn't something that is just easily turned off.

Is it wrong?  yup.  is it lust?  It certainly can be, but I think mostly it isn't.  It is mostly for release.  I think that is probably the reason it is so hard to overcome.  That primal desire doesn't go away.  Being romantic with your wife is the best release, but if you can't then what do you do?  Looking at porn is the easy way out.   It generally has little to do with the guy wanting to be with someone other than his wife.

Of course there are exceptions.  If his wife has let herself go and is mean to him, then certainly fantasizing about being with someone else would make a lot of sense.

 

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12 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

To Lust - have a very strong sexual desire for someone

I just don't think that is the case for most men who watch porn.

We're playing a bit fast and loose with the meaning of "for" here aren't we?

"Honey, that woman's super hot naked body turns me on -- but that doesn't mean I have desire for her. I'm just aroused by her. Not for her. By her! See the difference? See honey? See?"

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

We're playing a bit fast and loose with the meaning of "for" here aren't we?

"Honey, that woman's super hot naked body turns me on -- but that doesn't mean I have desire for her. I'm just aroused by her. Not for her. By her! See the difference? See honey? See?"

If he is openly discussing with his wife, that is probably a good first step and if he is discussing with her she probably does not care.  But I am saying aroused for the action, not the person.  But who knows.

 

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This is a difficult subject for many, but I think we need to be careful when we say pornography is the same as cheating. It's not. It's bad, unwholesome, sinful, and overcoming it's use by someone who is addicted to it should be a number 1 priority. But it is not cheating. If it was the same as cheating, the punishment would be a church disciplinary council, followed by the probable excommunication of the offender. The fact that the Lord does not punish this sin, and it is a sin, this way leads me to believe that is an over statement. When we overstate these sins, we drive people further away from Christ by causing more people to hide their sins rather than confess them. After all, technically everyone who has ever lusted after a woman or man in their heart would be guilty of adultery by that definition. I don't think that was the Savior's point. We are not trying to hang a huge Scarlet Letter on a person, we are trying to get them to come back too, or more fully too, Christ. However, I completely understand why a wife would be devastated to learn of this after it was kept secret. That is a betrayel of the marriage covenant, the promise to be honest and true with each other, and claiming that a woman "just doesn't understand" how a man feels when their trust has been violated is disingenuous.Any man who is trying to overcome this needs to be fully honest with his wife throughout his repentance process if he wants to have his wife on his side and if he wants to be fully forgiven.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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18 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

This is a difficult subject for many, but I think we need to be careful when we say pornography is the same as cheating. It's not. It's bad, unwholesome, sinful, and overcoming it's use by someone who is addicted to it should be a number 1 priority. But it is not cheating. If it was the same as cheating, the punishment would be a church disciplinary council, followed by the probable excommunication of the offender. The fact that the Lord does not punish this sin, and it is a sin, this way leads me to believe that is an over statement. When we overstate these sins, we drive people further away from Christ by causing more people to hide their sins rather than confess them. After all, technically everyone who has ever lusted after a woman or man in their heart would be guilty of adultery by that definition. I don't think that was the Savior's point. We are not trying to hang a huge Scarlet Letter on a person, we are trying to get them to come back too, or more fully too, Christ. However, I completely understand why a wife would be devastated to learn of this after it was kept secret. That is a betrayel of the marriage covenant, the promise to be honest and true with each other, and claiming that a woman "just doesn't understand" how a man feels when their trust has been violated is disingenuous.Any man who is trying to overcome this needs to be fully honest with his wife throughout his repentance process if he wants to have his wife on his side and if he wants to be fully forgiven.

Co-signed. 

Great post. 

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1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

aroused for the action, not the person.

Because, after all, women are just objects, and being aroused by an object isn't the same as being aroused by a person. <_<

Garbage with a capital G.

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1 hour ago, Midwest LDS said:

The fact that the Lord does not punish this sin

Just so we're clear.... the Lord does and will punish all sin that isn't repented of. If you mean "the Church" doesn't "punish" the sin of pornography use...that's not an absolute. It's really up to the bishop. It seems highly likely that many a bishop would, indeed, place restrictions upon a person who has used pornography -- things like not partaking of the sacrament, restricted temple access, etc.

1 hour ago, Midwest LDS said:

When we overstate these sins, we drive people further away from Christ by causing more people to hide their sins rather than confess them.

Not that I disagree with you about the idea that we shouldn't overstate things: but I don't believe doing so drives people further away from Christ. The philosophy is flawed.

Coming back to Christ is about humbling oneself. A broken heart. A contrite spirit.

Yeah. Let's call a spade a spade. But let's not pretend like semantic interpretations of "adultery in his heart" really has anything to do with whether one is willing to give up their sins to know God or not.

1 hour ago, Midwest LDS said:

We are not trying to hang a huge Scarlet Letter on a person, we are trying to get them to come back too, or more fully too, Christ.

This is true for those who have committed adultery as well.

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Just so we're clear.... the Lord does and will punish all sin that isn't repented of. If you mean "the Church" doesn't "punish" the sin of pornography use...that's not an absolute. It's really up to the bishop. It seems highly likely that many a bishop would, indeed, place restrictions upon a person who has used pornography -- things like not partaking of the sacrament, restricted temple access, etc.

Not that I disagree with you about the idea that we shouldn't overstate things: but I don't believe doing so drives people further away from Christ. The philosophy is flawed.

Coming back to Christ is about humbling oneself. A broken heart. A contrite spirit.

Yeah. Let's call a spade a spade. But let's not pretend like semantic interpretations of "adultery in his heart" really has anything to do with whether one is willing to give up their sins to know God or not.

This is true for those who have committed adultery as well.

Fair enough and agreed (hence my statement that it is sin and must be repented of). All of my statements were made considering someone who is actively repenting, and does not apply to someone who doesn't care, isn't trying. I'm not trying to play word games, but I am trying to say that referring to this particular sin as cheating is unhelpful. It takes a serious, but manageable sin and turns it into one that requires the full aspects of church discipline to fix. I find that unhelpful personally, and I believe that it drives people to hide their sin until it bursts forth in horrifically bad ways rather than catching it early and fixing it before its an all consuming obsession. In this case, I believe that compassion and understanding wins these sinners back to Christ far easier than judgement and a flaming sword. I'm speaking from personal experience. I don't blame the church (far from it) but the way members talked about pornography at church when I was a kid caused me to shrink in shame and hide my sin rather then get it taken care of. I was exposed to pornography as a child, and it got me hook, line, and sinker. But the discussion about how no good Latter Day Saint boy would be involved in this sin, that only perverts would enjoy it and that breaking the law of chastity is the worst thing a normal person can do convinced me that I was a freak who would be shunned if anyone ever knew. That was interpreted falsely (very falsely) by me but that's what my teenaged brain heard and so I buried it. I thought if I just hated myself enough, punished myself enough, I could stop this sin. That only made it worse. By the time I heard some compassionate and loving teaching on the subject, I couldn't stop and it's taken over a decade (and a loving wife who knew about my problems before I married her and stuck by me anyways) to get where I am today. I'm saying the reason the Lord changed how His church discussed this issue is because we were talking about it wrong and, in our zeal to root up the tares, we were rooting up the wheat too. Far better to show men and women (this is very much a problem for both sexes now) that Christ loves them, even though this sin is bad it can be overcome, and offer the hope and salvation that comes from the Grace of Christ so we can save them when it's not a full blown obsession. 

Edited by Midwest LDS

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