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6 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Fair enough and agreed (hence my statement that it is sin and must be repented of). All of my statements were made considering someone who is actively repenting, and does not apply to someone who doesn't care, isn't trying. I'm not trying to play word games, but I am trying to say that referring to this particular sin as cheating is unhelpful. It takes a serious, but manageable sin and turns it into one that requires the full aspects of church discipline to fix. I find that unhelpful personally, and I believe that it drives people to hide their sin until it bursts forth in horrifically bad ways rather than catching it early and fixing it before its an all consuming obsession. In this case, I believe that compassion and understanding wins these sinners back to Christ far easier than judgement and a flaming sword. I'm speaking from personal experience. I don't blame the church (far from it) but the way members talked about pornography at church when I was a kid caused me to shrink in shame and hide my sin rather then get it taken care of. I was exposed to pornography as a child, and it got me hook, line, and sinker. But the discussion about how no good Latter Day Saint boy would be involved in this sin, that only perverts would enjoy it and that breaking the law of chastity is the worst thing a normal person can do convinced me that I was a freak who would be shunned if anyone ever knew. That was interpreted falsely (very falsely) by me but that's what my teenaged brain heard and so I buried it. I thought if I just hated myself enough, punished myself enough, I could stop this sin. That only made it worse. By the time I heard some compassionate and loving teaching on the subject, I couldn't stop and it's taken over a decade (and a loving wife who knew about my problems before I married her and stuck by me anyways) to get where I am today. I'm saying the reason the Lord changed how His church discussed this issue is because we were talking about it wrong and, in our zeal to root up the tares, we were rooting up the wheat too. Far better to show men and women (this is very much a problem for both sexes now) that Christ loves them, even though this sin is bad it can be overcome, and offer the hope that comes from the Grace ofChrist so we can save them when it's not a full blown obsession. 

I do not ultimately buy the solution you present (don't be so hard on pornography) and I'll explain why. You have a personal experience that leads you to a conclusion. But you do not have the frame of reference that would come from the opposite experience. On side one you have -- teaching the despicable nature of sin might lead to an overreaction of extreme shame. On the other side, however, you have -- teaching that something isn't so bad might lead to casual experimentation with something that 'isn't that big of a deal'. And, frankly, we have plenty enough of that coming from the other side of the aisle. "It's not that big of a deal. Everyone's doing it. You can repent of it easily."

Both reactions are, of course, driven by the same master of sin.

I do not believe for one second that being less clear about the horrors of sin or the despicable nature of pornography will lead to it being easier to repent of. Not for a second!

Sin is the problem. Sin is the evil. Sin is the burden. Sin hurts us. Sin breaks our souls. Sen bends our minds. Sin binds us to its master.

One way or the other Satan will do all he can to twist things in our minds so that we are either too hard on ourselves or not hard enough. He has the power to do that when we sin and put ourselves into his power. And he's perfectly capable of convincing the sin-broken mind to feel greater shame than one should entirely independent of the weaknesses or strengths our fellow-men have in expressing truth.

Escaping Satan's power, traps, and lies comes only through humility and submission to the Savior through repentance and His atoning power. That is true whether we bought into one lie or another lie or even if we have the truth but simply take it hard.

Now I agree that calling a sin worse than it is is mistaken. But that sure isn't the problem I'm seeing with the attitude so many seem to have about pornography. They justify it, down play it, defend it, brush it aside.

It is, in reality, a big deal.

But just as breaking someone's legs is not the same as murdering them, I'm not going to adopt an "it's not that big of a deal" attitude about someone who's going around breaking people's legs. It's a big deal and needs to be stopped. But, no...he didn't murder them.

I realize that you're talking about comparing porn use to adultery as if they're one and the same though. And I agree, that may not be helpful -- if anyone actually believed it. But I don't think anyone really believes that. I don't believe anyone -- no matter how sanctimoniously they quote from the scriptures as proof on the matter -- really, truly, honestly believes that watching porn is just as bad as sleeping with another man's wife while your own wife is at home with the baby. I don't believe anyone honestly believes that it's as bad as two single folk fornicating outside of wedlock. Because...and I say this with the utmost sincerity....DUH.

*shrug*

But what do I know? I still believe in common sense, and it is plain that a great many have forsaken such a thing altogether.

So I agree, in principle, that calling pornography usage absolutely equivalent to adultery is dumb. But I also believe that Christ said what He said for a reason, because on some level, even looking at something other than your wife with sexual lust is the same as committing adultery in your heart. I think it behooves us to both reasonably understand that such things are not as severe as adultery and also understand that, in a way, they very much are.

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7 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Christ did not say that was cheating.

Did he not though?

cheat
[CHēt]
VERB
...
informal
be sexually unfaithful.
"I wish someone had told me my partner was cheating on me"
synonyms
commit adultery
 · be unfaithful · stray · be untrue · be inconstant · be false · two-time · play away · play around (emphasis mine)
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5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Did he not though?

cheat
[CHēt]
VERB
...
informal
be sexually unfaithful.
"I wish someone had told me my partner was cheating on me"
synonyms
commit adultery
 · be unfaithful · stray · be untrue · be inconstant · be false · two-time · play away · play around (emphasis mine)

If you really want to hold that ground, what do you think about anger?

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11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I do not ultimately buy the solution you present (don't be so hard on pornography) and I'll explain why. You have a personal experience that leads you to a conclusion. But you do not have the frame of reference that would come from the opposite experience. On side one you have -- teaching the despicable nature of sin might lead to an overreaction of extreme shame. On the other side, however, you have -- teaching that something isn't so bad might lead to casual experimentation with something that 'isn't that big of a deal'. And, frankly, we have plenty enough of that coming from the other side of the aisle. "It's not that big of a deal. Everyone's doing it. You can repent of it easily."

Both reactions are, of course, driven by the same master of sin.

I do not believe for one second that being less clear about the horrors of sin or the despicable nature of pornography will lead to it being easier to repent of. Not for a second!

Sin is the problem. Sin is the evil. Sin is the burden. Sin hurts us. Sin breaks our souls. Sen bends our minds. Sin binds us to its master.

One way or the other Satan will do all he can to twist things in our minds so that we are either too hard on ourselves or not hard enough. He has the power to do that when we sin and put ourselves into his power. And he's perfectly capable of convincing the sin-broken mind to feel greater shame than one should entirely independent of the weaknesses or strengths our fellow-men have in expressing truth.

Escaping Satan's power, traps, and lies comes only through humility and submission to the Savior through repentance and His atoning power. That is true whether we bought into one lie or another lie or even if we have the truth but simply take it hard.

Now I agree that calling a sin worse than it is is mistaken. But that sure isn't the problem I'm seeing with the attitude so many seem to have about pornography. They justify it, down play it, defend it, brush it aside.

It is, in reality, a big deal.

But just as breaking someone's legs is not the same as murdering them, I'm not going to adopt an "it's not that big of a deal" attitude about someone who's going around breaking people's legs. It's a big deal and needs to be stopped. But, no...he didn't murder them.

I realize that you're talking about comparing porn use to adultery as if they're one and the same though. And I agree, that may not be helpful -- if anyone actually believed it. But I don't think anyone really believes that. I don't believe anyone -- no matter how sanctimoniously they quote from the scriptures as proof on the matter -- really, truly, honestly believes that watching porn is just as bad as sleeping with another man's wife while your own wife is at home with the baby. I don't believe anyone honestly believes that it's as bad as two single folk fornicating outside of wedlock. Because...and I say this with the utmost sincerity....DUH.

*shrug*

But what do I know? I still believe in common sense, and it is plain that a great many have forsaken such a thing altogether.

So I agree, in principle, that calling pornography usage absolutely equivalent to adultery is dumb. But I also believe that Christ said what He said for a reason, because on some level, even looking at something other than your wife with sexual lust is the same as committing adultery in your heart. I think it behooves us to both reasonably understand that such things are not as severe as adultery and also understand that, in a way, they very much are.

You know I don't think you and I are as far off as it might seem. Actually, especially since we seem to agree on my primary cause of concern in this thread, mislabeling the sin, I think we are closer than you may think. I did not intend to say that we should sugar coat or say a sin is not a sin. Hearkening back to my original post, I said that someone struggling with pornography needs to focus on fixing it as their number 1 priority. I just believe that along with teaching the seriousness of sin, we need to not overshoot the mark in an attempt to hedge up the law. I would tend to agree with you that it is common sense that pornography abuse is not as serious as full blown adultery, but I found that not to be the way this problem was tackled. Due to it's addictive nature, it's better, in my opinion, to do our best to focus on the hope of overcoming the sin that Christ provides, than of the hellfire awaiting unrepentant sinners in the next world. But my personal experience may color it some. For what it's worth, I appreciate the conversation brother.

Edited by Midwest LDS
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2 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

If you really want to hold that ground, what do you think about anger?

Well if you read my last post to Midwest you'll see that I'm not "really" holding that ground. We're talking about words here. So mostly I'm giving you a hard time.

Christ did say that looking to lust was the same as adultery in the heart. And "cheating" can be a term used for adultery. So Christ did, from a certain perspective, say that looking to lust was cheating in the heart.

I think "in the heart" is important. It's not "the same". But I would hope that no reasonable person would actually argue that watching pornography while your wife's out on errands is "faithful" to her.

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9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So Christ did, from a certain perspective, say that looking to lust was cheating in the heart.

tumblr_moo2ieuPkI1qh402go4_250.gif

We all know the only reason Ben wasn't punched for saying that was because he was already a force-ghost.

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think "in the heart" is important. It's not "the same". But I would hope that no reasonable person would actually argue that watching pornography while your wife's out on errands is "faithful" to her.

Since we all keep referencing the same verses, I'll quote them for any lurkers.

Quote

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Matthew 5:27-28)

I'm with you on this. "in the heart" is a big part of this teaching. It's not like under Moses a man could lust all day and not commit adultery in his heart, but under Jesus this was the new expected standard of conduct to follow God.

And for that last statement, I can fully understand why a woman would look at her husband and say, "I feel like every time you view pornography you're cheating on me." And if that's how she feels, I would encourage her to share that as well as listen and try to understand her husband's position. But I don't think it's terribly productive to say, "Jesus says you're an adulterer." First, because Jesus has actually said, "Whoa dude, keep me out of this!" when people tried to drag him into a domestic dispute; and second, if that's how they want to apply that verse, then they are murderers.

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1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

tumblr_moo2ieuPkI1qh402go4_250.gif

We all know the only reason Ben wasn't punched for saying that was because he was already a force-ghost.

So you're implying you want to punch me in the face. Well...I only have one response to that:

MURDERER!!

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

and second, if that's how they want to apply that verse, then they are murderers.

Just for the pure snippy fun of it, let's parse that. A. For this to be true on even the most basic level they'd have to be saying it in anger. I reject your premise that such must be an angry accusation. B. Even if they were angry, the verse doesn't actually phrase things in like manner: a la "thou shalt not commit adultery, but lust is adultery in the heart" would needs be here, "thou shalt not murder, but anger is murder in the heart". And, of course, it does not say that. ;)

 

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58 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So you're implying you want to punch me in the face. Well...I only have one response to that:

MURDERER!!

Just for the pure snippy fun of it, let's parse that. A. For this to be true on even the most basic level they'd have to be saying it in anger. I reject your premise that such must be an angry accusation. B. Even if they were angry, the verse doesn't actually phrase things in like manner: a la "thou shalt not commit adultery, but lust is adultery in the heart" would needs be here, "thou shalt not murder, but anger is murder in the heart". And, of course, it does not say that. ;)

 

I invoke the parallel structure argument.

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On 10/2/2018 at 7:39 AM, Lost Boy said:

Why is it that LDS women equate watching porn with their husbands not loving them?  Just because a spouse watches porn does not mean he or she doesn't love their wife or husband.  

There is an evil statement out there..  "If he loved me, he wouldn't do it."  Jesus didn't say "because you sinned, you don't love me"  he said "If you love me, keep my commandments"  

So here is the question.  Do you love the Lord?  Do you keep all of his commandments?  I would like to believe I love the Lord, but I am not about to say I keep all the commandments.  I am imperfect.    Some people think of looking at porn as cheating.  Some do not.  One study says that 70% of the male population watch porn and 1/3rd of the female population does as well.  I am not stating this to say porn is ok.   I am stating it saying that watching porn is not the same as having an emotional relationship with someone else.  Cheating with someone is two way and there is emotional bonding that takes place.  With porn, there is no emotional bonding.  There is no two way interaction.   Don't get me wrong, it porn is definitely bad, but viewing it does not mean he doesn't love you.

What it means is that at some point he got hooked on it.  Probably before he knew you.  I don't know the typical reaction of LDS women, but in my mind I see it playing out this way.  First they think their husband doesn't love them, that they feel inadequate, that covenants are broken and all is pretty much lost and so in order to fix him they chastise him.  Tell him how he makes them feel...  gives him a complete guilt trip on it.   "Aren't I enough for you?"  This of course fixes nothing because he feels absolutely worthless at this point.  And she feels absolutely worthless at this point.  She says no sex unless he promises to stop.  So he promises the promise he can't keep.  He watches porn again and she feels even more betrayed.  They both feel that neither can love them.  They may "try" and love the other, but it doesn't work because it isn't unconditional.

I wish guys didn't get into porn and I wish women wouldn't take it personally.  But they do.  There is a way out of porn.  It isn't easy, but they husband will be eternally grateful if she continues to love him throughout his battle.  But that is not what we are really taught in the LDS culture.  We are taught that he is scum and not worthy to be your husband.  The truth is that he is still God's son and God still loves him.  And he needs help and support out of the hole he got himself into.   I would guess that most of the time both husband and wife take the wrong approach to it and both suffer. 

 

Sorry for the late reply (working mom here)

  Emotional intimacy requires honesty.  If two people agree that porn is fine for the marriage, watch it together, are open and honest about it - great, no problem. Religious population vs. non-religious... In the absence of a shame-culture where everyone can talk openly about anything, it seems not to be a problem.    When a "high priest" lies about it, lies through every covenant he makes, lies through every interview he has been in - dishonesty is the biggest problem.   Dishonesty = no emotional intimacy.    We also had a "sexless marriage" because of porn.  We were not close - either physically or emotionally, because of porn.  That is NOT love, that is not a marriage. 

Edited by Searching
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On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 7:04 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

I realize that you're talking about comparing porn use to adultery as if they're one and the same though. And I agree, that may not be helpful -- if anyone actually believed it. But I don't think anyone really believes that. I don't believe anyone -- no matter how sanctimoniously they quote from the scriptures as proof on the matter -- really, truly, honestly believes that watching porn is just as bad as sleeping with another man's wife while your own wife is at home with the baby. I don't believe anyone honestly believes that it's as bad as two single folk fornicating outside of wedlock. Because...and I say this with the utmost sincerity....DUH.

You would be surprised.  It is EXACTLY this reason that many foolish women divorce their husbands (and occasionally vice versa).

I see it widespread and prevalent throughout The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I've seen it pushed in this idea and agenda on these very forums.

Ignoring the problem or saying it does not exist does not make it go away.  Normally it only makes it worse.

On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 3:19 PM, Lost Boy said:

  

To Lust - have a very strong sexual desire for someone

I just don't think that is the case for most men who watch porn.  Maybe I am wrong here.  But I think most men who watch porn would much rather be with their wife and fantasize about being with their wife.  If they are lusting, it is more lusting for the person who isn't interested in being with them at the moment.  

There is zero emotional connection and really no physical desire to be with the woman either.  It is more about getting rid of the sexual desire.  I really doubt he wants to be with any of them in most cases.  He would much rather be with his wife.

And I speak as if it is the wife's fault.  It isn't.  But it isn't his fault that he has strong sexual desires either.  It isn't something that is just easily turned off.

Is it wrong?  yup.  is it lust?  It certainly can be, but I think mostly it isn't.  It is mostly for release.  I think that is probably the reason it is so hard to overcome.  That primal desire doesn't go away.  Being romantic with your wife is the best release, but if you can't then what do you do?  Looking at porn is the easy way out.   It generally has little to do with the guy wanting to be with someone other than his wife.

Of course there are exceptions.  If his wife has let herself go and is mean to him, then certainly fantasizing about being with someone else would make a lot of sense.

 

Thank you for explaining your viewpoint on this.

It can be hard to try to understand why someone is struggling with this problem.  We can try to be sympathetic and try to understand, but it is still hard to figure out why people have such a hard time overcoming it. 

I suppose it is similar to any addictive substance, but because we managed to avoid it in the first place we do not suffer from the affliction.

It can be hard to understand why someone has such a hard time to stop drinking when we never experienced that difficulty (and thank goodness we did, for those of us who did not have to suffer through it).  I would suppose that it applies to any addiction others suffer that we personally never had to deal with in our lives.

I'm not sure I think your post applies to everyone, or that I agree that it is the only reason, but it probably will help in trying to understand a few cases at times.  Thank you for sharing your viewpoint.

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3 hours ago, Searching said:

 

Sorry for the late reply (working mom here)

  Emotional intimacy requires honesty.  If two people agree that porn is fine for the marriage, watch it together, are open and honest about it - great, no problem.

I disagree with this STRONGLY.  To be fair, I agree honesty is the best policy and being open and honest should be done in every marriage.  That said...

My opinion.

I think Pornography is damaging to anyone who watches it.  I do not think it should be watched and a couple should not agree to watch it together or separately.

I DO think open and honest communication is vital in a marriage and think that is a great idea, however, this is NOT something they should agree to do.

I think in the end it will prove far more destructive to the marriage, even if they watch pornography together,  than if they agreed NOT to watch pornography in the first place.  Avoiding it will keep them stronger in the marriage.

Once again, my opinion.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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3 hours ago, Searching said:

 

Sorry for the late reply (working mom here)

  Emotional intimacy requires honesty.  If two people agree that porn is fine for the marriage, watch it together, are open and honest about it - great, no problem. Religious population vs. non-religious... In the absence of a shame-culture where everyone can talk openly about anything, it seems not to be a problem.    When a "high priest" lies about it, lies through every covenant he makes, lies through every interview he has been in - dishonesty is the biggest problem.   Dishonesty = no emotional intimacy.    We also had a "sexless marriage" because of porn.  We were not close - either physically or emotionally, because of porn.  That is NOT love, that is not a marriage. 

I am very curious and certainly you don't have answer, but I would like to know.  Was the marriage sexless before you found out or did it become sexless after?  I would think that if he was watching porn he would want to have sex.  I don't quite understand why it goes to a sexless marriage.

Now from an addiction side.  You do understand the dishonesty part here right.  With an addiction you are caught between a rock and a hard place.  You know you shouldn't be doing it.  There is a very big part of you that wants to stop, but you know that you can't stop.  You want to be a good person, but you can't so you lie.  You are ashamed because you can't stop.  Your spouse and people around you have no idea what you are going through....  They think that if you loved them, then you would stop.  It doesn't work that way.  It doesn't matter if they love you or not, the addiction controls them.  And unless you have experienced such an addiction, you probably really have no clue the strangle hold it can have on you.  So of course he lied.  Had he been honest, about it, he probably thought that you would look down on him.  He doesn't know how to stop, but he doesn't want to give up those things that are precious to him either.

The addict hates himself.  The spouse essentially thinks that they married a loser.  Of course the marriage breaks down.  It doesn't have to.  But it requires both husband and wife to look at it differently.  He needs to know his spouse will love him and the spouse needs to be able to look at her husband and love him.  That is not what happens most of the time.  most of the time the wife gets upset and the husband retreats into hiding and lies.  The wife thinks, why doesn't he just stop?  he has agency.  Yeah, not really.  And so the lies continue.

If the families of the church are going to survive this plague, they need to learn how to trust and love each other in spite of the sin.

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4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

You would be surprised.

I often am at things that should be "duh".

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

It is EXACTLY this reason that many foolish women divorce their husbands (and occasionally vice versa).

I don't believe it.

Yes...I believe that women divorce their husbands over porn (and I do not hold it against them or believe it to be de facto "foolish"). And yes, I believe they say that it's "the same" as if their husband committed adultery. But I do not believe for a second that if they then found out that their husband HAD actually slept with another woman that the blow would not be much, much, MUCH greater, because really, inside, they know it's worse...because.......duh.

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Ignoring the problem or saying it does not exist does not make it go away.  Normally it only makes it worse.

I'm not sure how this is directed to me.

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8 hours ago, Searching said:

If two people agree that porn is fine for the marriage, watch it together, are open and honest about it - great, no problem.

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I disagree with this STRONGLY. 

...

My opinion.

...

Once again, my opinion.

JohnsonJones is being nice.

Too nice. What he should have said was, "That's the biggest bunch of cockamamie bull-crap nonsense I've ever heard in my life!"

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12 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I am very curious and certainly you don't have answer, but I would like to know.  Was the marriage sexless before you found out or did it become sexless after?  I would think that if he was watching porn he would want to have sex.  I don't quite understand why it goes to a sexless marriage.

Now from an addiction side.  You do understand the dishonesty part here right.  With an addiction you are caught between a rock and a hard place.  You know you shouldn't be doing it.  There is a very big part of you that wants to stop, but you know that you can't stop.  You want to be a good person, but you can't so you lie.  You are ashamed because you can't stop.  Your spouse and people around you have no idea what you are going through....  They think that if you loved them, then you would stop.  It doesn't work that way.  It doesn't matter if they love you or not, the addiction controls them.  And unless you have experienced such an addiction, you probably really have no clue the strangle hold it can have on you.  So of course he lied.  Had he been honest, about it, he probably thought that you would look down on him.  He doesn't know how to stop, but he doesn't want to give up those things that are precious to him either.

The addict hates himself.  The spouse essentially thinks that they married a loser.  Of course the marriage breaks down.  It doesn't have to.  But it requires both husband and wife to look at it differently.  He needs to know his spouse will love him and the spouse needs to be able to look at her husband and love him.  That is not what happens most of the time.  most of the time the wife gets upset and the husband retreats into hiding and lies.  The wife thinks, why doesn't he just stop?  he has agency.  Yeah, not really.  And so the lies continue.

If the families of the church are going to survive this plague, they need to learn how to trust and love each other in spite of the sin.

 

Funny thing that porn does to some guys...https://markmanson.net/pornography-can-ruin-your-sex-life ... 

I did not know what was causing his impotence until much later. He was very good at hiding his addiction.  

Trust/forgive → that does not end an addiction.... it enables it.  

Healthy boundaries, ability to enforce consequences - that is what is necessary.

I can love him as a friend, as a person - but not as a husband.

Edited by Searching
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13 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I disagree with this STRONGLY.  To be fair, I agree honesty is the best policy and being open and honest should be done in every marriage.  That said...

My opinion.

I think Pornography is damaging to anyone who watches it.  I do not think it should be watched and a couple should not agree to watch it together or separately.

I DO think open and honest communication is vital in a marriage and think that is a great idea, however, this is NOT something they should agree to do.

I think in the end it will prove far more destructive to the marriage, even if they watch pornography together,  than if they agreed NOT to watch pornography in the first place.  Avoiding it will keep them stronger in the marriage.

Once again, my opinion.

 

It seems many people make it work.

 

Here is a scenario... you are married to an addict who after years and years cannot stop.  You cannot change them.  Do you:

get a divorce, or

learn to live with it and join the party?

 

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2 hours ago, Searching said:

 

It seems many people make it work.

 

Here is a scenario... you are married to an addict who after years and years cannot stop.  You cannot change them.  Do you:

get a divorce, or

learn to live with it and join the party?

 

I would not suggest either. Do you divorce a spouse for becoming inactive or leaving the church? I would hope not.  Do you join them in leaving the church. That, too, I would hope not. 

My spouse has chosen a different path for now. I have prayed, and while I receive no firm confirmation that she will come back, I do have a feeling that she will someday. But more than that I had the strong prompting to love her. 

It hasn't been easy at times, but I have grown tremendously. 

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4 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I would not suggest either. Do you divorce a spouse for becoming inactive or leaving the church? I would hope not.  Do you join them in leaving the church. That, too, I would hope not. 

My spouse has chosen a different path for now. I have prayed, and while I receive no firm confirmation that she will come back, I do have a feeling that she will someday. But more than that I had the strong prompting to love her. 

It hasn't been easy at times, but I have grown tremendously. 

 

I have a hard time with the celestial Kingdom - as a convert, I am not "sealed" to my family (parents, grandparents, etc.)  and I do not feel like I am "sealed" to my spouse even though we did get married in a temple (lies, not worthy for anything).  I do not like the idea of a hierarchy - seems like eternally segregating people into who is better than who is not such a great thing.  Given an eternity to progress, I have to have hope that everyone will come to love everyone.  If I could imagine the perfect marriage, it would not include polygamy.  I would rather be eternally single than participate in polygamy.  ... kind of hard to want to be active when the point of it all - "together forever" is not possible for me with the people I love.

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On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 7:16 AM, Searching said:

 

It seems many people make it work.

 

Here is a scenario... you are married to an addict who after years and years cannot stop.  You cannot change them.  Do you:

get a divorce, or

learn to live with it and join the party?

 

Neither.  I personally would choose another path.

I pray for them and ask them to come to church with me. 

I try to set an example of a follower of our Lord and one who will follow all his commandments to the best of my ability.

If they refuse, I continue to try to set an example.

If they abuse me or my children, I call the police.

If they are willing to let me worship as I will, I love them as much as I can.  They are the test I have to show Christlike love and compassion.

If they grow more bitter and hate for what I do, that is what is.  If they choose to divorce, that is THEIR choice, while I try to walk in the footsteps of the Lord.

When they go and do their sin, I read the Book of Mormon and the Bible.  I teach my children the concepts of the Lord.  I go to church, I pray, and I fast. 

I hope that my example will convince my partner/addict to change, but if it does not, I still show them christlike love and compassion.

The Lord in his mortal ministry was around many sinners.  These included those who committed adultery and other sins.  He showed love and compassion for them.  Unlike the Pharisees he normally did not tell condemn them.  He NEVER joined them in the sin.  He even forgave those who were part of sins FAR greater than those of pornography.  Even when people were probably repeatedly involved with the sin (Judas was an apostle, but not spoken of highly, one could assume he was commonly involved with various types of sin, and yet he was forgiven everytime up until his greatest sin, and was made an apostle of all people) were forgiven.

The Lord forgives us when we repent, even with repeated sins.  We should try our best to emulate his loving and forgiving character.

Who are we to put ourselves on a pedastal higher than the Lord?

It is a HARD path to tread and a HARD path to follow.  One in such a situation may need far more prayer and far more need for spiritual guidance than others.  If we endure to the end, we can be assured of eternal life.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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On 10/6/2018 at 4:44 PM, Searching said:

 

I have a hard time with the celestial Kingdom - as a convert, I am not "sealed" to my family (parents, grandparents, etc.)  and I do not feel like I am "sealed" to my spouse even though we did get married in a temple (lies, not worthy for anything).  I do not like the idea of a hierarchy - seems like eternally segregating people into who is better than who is not such a great thing.  Given an eternity to progress, I have to have hope that everyone will come to love everyone.  If I could imagine the perfect marriage, it would not include polygamy.  I would rather be eternally single than participate in polygamy.  ... kind of hard to want to be active when the point of it all - "together forever" is not possible for me with the people I love.

Our life on Earth can seem like an eternity at times especially when it is not going the way we want.  In the grand scheme of things it is only a blip.

Spouses can change.  We can change.  We want that change to happen overnight, but often it doesn't.  It took me nearly 25 years to really start figuring out myself and my wife.  We were quite unhappy for a very long time.  I could see all the issues with my wife, but couldn't see the huge issue with me.  When I finally realized and acknowledged I had some serious flaws, I was able to start working on them.

And then I realized how selfish I had been wanting her to change without putting effort into bettering me.  Everything was her fault or so I thought.  I knew I wasn't perfect, but had no idea how my imperfections influenced her.  I didn't realize some of the things that I thought were small had a big effect on her and what she thought about me.

I still have my flaws.  They aren't going away any time soon, but I have really started addressing them and getting much better.  She too has made significant effort in changing herself.  The same flaws are there, but are much less.

You don't have what you want, but that doesn't mean you can't have it eventually.  How much of a sacrifice are you willing to make to get it?  If you view your husband as someone you aren't willing to truly sacrifice for, then chances are you are not going to get what you want.  Yes, he is the one that is being naughty, so why should you have to do anything?

Isn't that the relationship we have with Christ?  We are the ones being naughty, why should he doing anything for us?  The answer to that is that he knows each and every one of us has value.  You have value, I have value, your husband has value.  

I tried getting my wife to behave differently for so long.  I tried through reason, anger, etc.  The one thing I didn't try is to try and love her as Christ would.  And that is not easy to do.  But it gets the best results.  But patience is a must. 

When I look back I certainly didn't treat my wife in a Christ like manner.  She didn't treat me in a Christ like manner either.  But that is no excuse for my behavior. The way I treat her should be independent on how she treats me.  And that is a tough life lesson, but an incredibly important one.

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