Traveler

Military Obligation

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I am not a fan of the military.  I was in the military and I know what it is like.  As much as I did not like being in the military - I would not change that I voluntarily served. I believe many of the political and social problems in this country are a direct reflection of a lazy entitled public and society that does not believe every citizen has a military obligation.  I believe time in the military should be necessary for citizenship and especially the right to vote or receive government assistance.

Of course I believe that charity and concern (love) for the needy and poor is important and necessary for a society to be enlightened - just not a government obligation.

 

The Traveler

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We should be respectful of the military and those who served. So thank you for your service to the country. 

However, it should be strictly voluntary. Period.  No draft. At all. 

Edited by MormonGator

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If you read Starship Troopers, you'll get what Traveler is trying to say. (Or visit Israel.)  

But in a nutshell, hardship and sacrifice breeds character.  On a national level, one way to 'up' the quality of our citizens is to require hardship and sacrifice.

(Correct me if I'm wrong here Traveler.)

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50 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

If you read Starship Troopers, you'll get what Traveler is trying to say. (Or visit Israel.)  

But in a nutshell, hardship and sacrifice breeds character.  On a national level, one way to 'up' the quality of our citizens is to require hardship and sacrifice.

(Correct me if I'm wrong here Traveler.)

I get what Traveler is saying (or I think I do) - In the Philippines, one year of Citizens Army Training is required for all - male or female - and ROTC is required for all males attending universities.  It just struck me as a contradiction for him to approve of the practice when he is not a fan of the military.

I don't agree that military training for citizens should be required to build character.  Rather,  required military training for citizens is an obligation of every citizen to be able to defend the country when called upon.  The Philippine National Anthem states that it is our glory and honor to defend our country from foreign invaders even at the price of death.

Edited by anatess2

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14 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am not a fan of the military.  I was in the military and I know what it is like.  As much as I did not like being in the military - I would not change that I voluntarily served. I believe many of the political and social problems in this country are a direct reflection of a lazy entitled public and society that does not believe every citizen has a military obligation.  I believe time in the military should be necessary for citizenship and especially the right to vote or receive government assistance.

Of course I believe that charity and concern (love) for the needy and poor is important and necessary for a society to be enlightened - just not a government obligation.

 

The Traveler

I certainly think the military helps instill good character, but having all youth serve one year in the military would be a huge challenge to accomplish as the military just isn't that big.

The military today has 1.4 million active members.  The population of the U.S. is 325 million.  If you figure the the average life expectancy is around 80 years, that means 1 in 80 would be drafted each year.  1 in 80 of 325 million is 4.1 million people.

That just isn't going to happen.  I certainly don't want to pay those taxes.  And we really don't have use for that many in the military.  It would be far more useful to have some kind of mandatory public service building infrastructure and what not.  Have it set up somewhat military style in that it is regimented.   At least you would get something for the increase in taxes.

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16 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I'm not sure I understand your post.  You say you're not a fan of the military and then saying you believe time in the military is a necessity seem to contradict each other.

I would never consider the military as a career. 

 

The Traveler

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15 hours ago, MormonGator said:

We should be respectful of the military and those who served. So thank you for your service to the country. 

However, it should be strictly voluntary. Period.  No draft. At all. 

I can accept that - but I still believe that those that choose not serve in the military should not be able to vote or receive government assistance - including Social Security.

 

The Traveler

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8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I would never consider the military as a career. 

 

The Traveler

I would never consider being a soccer player a career.  That doesn't prevent me from being a fan of soccer and being constantly amazed at the amazing things they do on the field.

I think the same way of the military.

Edited by anatess2

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19 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I can accept that - but I still believe that those that choose not serve in the military should not be able to vote or receive government assistance - including Social Security.

 

The Traveler

 Never going to happen. 

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

I would never consider being a soccer player a career.  That doesn't prevent me from being a fan of soccer and being constantly amazed at the amazing things they do on the field.

I think the same way of the military.

I do not remember the issue but one morning at 3:00 am. the entire company I was assigned to was awakened and brought to formation at attention (in our underwear).  It was hot and humid - even at night it exceeded 100 degrees.   We remained at attention until someone passed out and fell out of formation (several hours after sun rise) before we were dismissed. 

Many that return from their missions - say being a missionary was hard.  I recently talked to a brilliant young engineer that quit their very high paying job because going to work for 8 hours five days a week was too hard for them.   @MormonGator thinks certain things will never happen in our current society - but I wonder if those unwilling to pay the price of freedom will remain free.

As extreme as my little story may seem - some will not come together and sacrifice as a teem without extreme pressure.   I am quite sure if the citizens of this country served - as I did - a military obligation - our country would not be so divided and the idiot politicians currently elected would never be elected to be  in charge of anything - not even picking up cigarette butts in parking lots - we would insist that they do the tasks and submit to being told what to do before they think to tell others what needs to be done.

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 @MormonGator thinks certain things will never happen in our current society

A draft will never happen. That doesn't mean people don't respect the military or appreciate our freedom. We do. In fact, I respect the military so much that I wouldn't make losers like myself be brothers with them (sorry LDS, you are stuck with me). 

Any organization works better when it's run by people who want to be there, volunteers or not. If you are forced to be there-you will not put in the best effort. 

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45 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Any organization works better when it's run by people who want to be there, volunteers or not. If you are forced to be there-you will not put in the best effort. 

I would change your wording a bid.  I believe organizations run better when the people feel an obligation and responsibility.  I am not so sure about the "want" reference you have made - that seems too close to greed and desires for power for me - that I see as perhaps the worse problem in any organization.  In general when people are motivated by want and desire rather than responsibility and obligation - I think we end up with mostly what is happening politically to our country.  I think we need to get over the idea that because we want to as legitimate motivation.  I know it is semantics - but I believe it important to make this particular impression as strong as possible. 

Freedom is not about wants and doing whatever you want - It is about obligation and responsibility.  And this is why so many loose their freedom - they do not WANT to be responsible and obligated.

 

The Traveler 

Edited by Traveler

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17 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I would change your wording a bid.  I believe organizations run better when the people feel an obligation and responsibility.  I am not so sure about the "want" reference you have made - that seems too close to greed and desires for power for me - that I see as perhaps the worse problem in any organization.  In general when people are motivated by want and desire rather than responsibility and obligation - I think we end up with mostly what is happening politically to our country.  I think we need to get over the idea that because we want to as legitimate motivation.  I know it is semantics - but I believe it important to make this particular impression as strong as possible. 

Freedom is not about wants and doing whatever you want - It is about obligation and responsibility.  And this is why so many loose their freedom - they do not WANT to be responsible and obligated.

 

The Traveler 

"True freedom is doing what I tell you to do."-Shift the Ape from The Last battle.

I have an obligation and a responsibility only to the things I freely choose. If I don't like the country of my birth, I can move. If I don't like the religion I was born in, I can convert or not practice. If I am forced into doing something, that takes away my freedom of choice and therefore, removes any obligation because I didn't choose it, it was forced on me. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Freedom is not about wants and doing whatever you want - It is about obligation and responsibility. 

It occurs to me that you may like this quote (or not, hard to guess these things):

Quote

Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one.
-- Ursula K. LeGuin, The Tombs of Atuan

Personally, I'm thoroughly impressed by Ursula LeGuin's fiction.

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33 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

"True freedom is doing what I tell you to do."-Shift the Ape from The Last battle.

I have an obligation and a responsibility only to the things I freely choose. If I don't like the country of my birth, I can move. If I don't like the religion I was born in, I can convert or not practice. If I am forced into doing something, that takes away my freedom of choice and therefore, removes any obligation because I didn't choose it, it was forced on me. 

 

Not exactly true - once you make any choice the consequences (results) are indeed forced upon you regardless if you want them or not - even if you made the choice not knowing the consequences.   The first step towards freedom is not doing what you want whenever you want because you want - that is the first step towards bondage and lost of liberty.

 

The Traveler

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1 minute ago, Traveler said:

= once you make any choice the consequences (results) are indeed forced upon you

Right. And being forced to join the military is someone else making the choice for you. Thus, you shouldn't have to deal with consequences if you didn't make the choice freely 

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The atrocities committed by drafted soldiers against their fellow soldiers during combat have been well documented. 

 

I dont disagree that military service can be a great vehicle towards learning respect, duty towards one's country, and self-discipline. 

 

However, I will also state that there are MANY ways that these same principles can be attained without military service. Likewise, I have met many people who were broken both physically and psychologically by war. 

 

The absolute BEST way to infuse these principles into one's nature is through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the support of the family. The breakdown of these two important elements in our society is the root cause for our woes. 

 

To state that we should limit our right to vote or receive governmental aid to those who have served military service runs counter to what the founding fathers intended. Now, if you want to discuss whether only land owners should be allowed to vote, you have my undivided attention! 🤗

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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Right. And being forced to join the military is someone else making the choice for you. Thus, you shouldn't have to deal with consequences if you didn't make the choice freely 

I suggested it be a choice for all that wish to vote and someday receive government assistance.  Do you object to any mandated obligation - say for mandatory taxes or obedience to the law?  I am trying to understand if you believe in choice or if you do not believe anyone in a free society has a military obligation.  What if no one was willing to serve in the military?  Does it matter if the country is at war or about to be overrun?

 

The Traveler

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Just now, Traveler said:

I suggested it be a choice for all that wish to vote and someday receive government assistance. 

Right, and we disagree.

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

  Do you object to any mandated obligation - say for mandatory taxes or obedience to the law?

No. But taxation is a huge, huge difference from mandatory military service. Taxation is offensive, but a land tax is the least offensive in order to provide basic services to a community. A sales tax is a necessary evil, an income tax is repulsive.

Rule of law is 100% mandatory to a free society. Again though, obeying the law is vastly different from mandatory military service. 

3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 I am trying to understand if you believe in choice or if you do not believe anyone in a free society has a military obligation.

 I believe in freedom. 

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 What if no one was willing to serve in the military?  Does it matter if the country is at war or about to be overrun?

A country that can't find enough volunteers to serve in the military is a country that doesn't deserve to survive.  

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1 hour ago, Colirio said:

The atrocities committed by drafted soldiers against their fellow soldiers during combat have been well documented. 

 

I dont disagree that military service can be a great vehicle towards learning respect, duty towards one's country, and self-discipline. 

 

However, I will also state that there are MANY ways that these same principles can be attained without military service. Likewise, I have met many people who were broken both physically and psychologically by war. 

 

The absolute BEST way to infuse these principles into one's nature is through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the support of the family. The breakdown of these two important elements in our society is the root cause for our woes. 

 

To state that we should limit our right to vote or receive governmental aid to those who have served military service runs counter to what the founding fathers intended. Now, if you want to discuss whether only land owners should be allowed to vote, you have my undivided attention! 🤗

I am not sure that those that have this kind of opinion - realize that citizens should not be separate from military personal - that historically if the military is separated from the citizens it is likely and  probable that those in the military will determine they should run the country - and such societies have no means (power) to stop them.  It is often the case that dictatorships separate citizens from a military obligation.  I believe our forefathers believed in a citizen army where every citizen has both a right and obligation to not just have a say in what the military does but to also serve in the military.  In other words that free citizens have a military obligation.  In essence if citizens do not feel obligated that such a society will not and even should not remain free.

 

The Traveler

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20 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

country that can't find enough volunteers to serve in the military is a country that doesn't deserve to survive.  

So only a countries that have some number of citizen that really want to kill people as a profession deserve to survive?  Is that what you are saying?  When I was in the army - I do not recall hardly anyone that wanted to be in combat - especially after they had the experience.  But I did get to know those that felt an obligation despite their desire to be somewhere else away from the conflict.  Those I would trust - but I heard about those that just wanted to be that guy in combat - I did not trust them and was sure I did not want someone like that as my commander.  Perhaps you feel differently?

 

The Traveler

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23 minutes ago, Traveler said:

So only a countries that have some number of citizen that really want to kill people as a profession deserve to survive?  Is that what you are saying? 

Um, no.

What I'm saying is that a country that cannot find enough civilians who volunteer to serve is a country in serious trouble. Where you are getting that from what I said is beyond me.  Way off base. 

Edited by MormonGator

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