Colirio Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 18 minutes ago, Traveler said: I am not sure that those that have this kind of opinion - realize that citizens should not be separate from military personal - that historically if the military is separated from the citizens it is likely and probable that those in the military will determine they should run the country - and such societies have no means (power) to stop them. It is often the case that dictatorships separate citizens from a military obligation. I believe our forefathers believed in a citizen army where every citizen has both a right and obligation to not just have a say in what the military does but to also serve in the military. In other words that free citizens have a military obligation. In essence if citizens do not feel obligated that such a society will not and even should not remain free. The Traveler Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to me that you are conflating militia with military. The distinction between the two is of great importance to maintaining our liberty from an oppressive government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warnerfranklin Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 I'm currently in the military. I don't think everyone should be required to serve. The job is difficult enough without having to deal with people who don't want to be there. Should there be some kind of service for people to become full citizens and have the right to vote - well that is debatable. Robert Heinlein made such an argument in his book Starship Troopers. The argument he made did have many valid points, but the society in that book was semi-fascist, so different set of circumstances. The military is a good place for young people looking for some life experience, marketable skills, and a chance to belong to something bigger than themselves. JohnsonJones and Colirio 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) Quote I believe time in the military should be necessary for citizenship and especially the right to vote or receive government assistance. I was also in the military (I joined on my 17th birthday), but I disagree. There are a lot of people that I wouldn't want to be in the military. Would you want to serve next to a mentally I'll homicidal schizophrenic with a hand grenade in hand? Or someone who was a gangbanger with an M-16? How about with someone who was terrified of weapons and who didn't want to be on the battlefield? Would you want to count on him or her to cover you from enemy fire? I wouldn't. My opinion is that standards should be kept high and pay raised. I do think however that any presidential candidate should have military experience since they make military decisions. Edited October 3, 2018 by Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindy Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 4 hours ago, Traveler said: I am not sure that those that have this kind of opinion - realize that citizens should not be separate from military personal - that historically if the military is separated from the citizens it is likely and probable that those in the military will determine they should run the country - and such societies have no means (power) to stop them. It is often the case that dictatorships separate citizens from a military obligation. I believe our forefathers believed in a citizen army where every citizen has both a right and obligation to not just have a say in what the military does but to also serve in the military. In other words that free citizens have a military obligation. In essence if citizens do not feel obligated that such a society will not and even should not remain free. Trav, I've tried to understand what all you are saying, but it sounds more like a dictatorship demanding a military obligation in order to vote in a free democracy? Doesn't sound very free to me. askandanswer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goor_de Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Scott said: I was also in the military (I joined on my 17th birthday), but I disagree. There are a lot of people that I wouldn't want to be in the military. Would you want to serve next to a mentally I'll homicidal schizophrenic with a hand grenade in hand? Or someone who was a gangbanger with an M-16? How about with someone who was terrified of weapons and who didn't want to be on the battlefield? Would you want to count on him or her to cover you from enemy fire? I wouldn't. My opinion is that standards should be kept high and pay raised. I do think however that any presidential candidate should have military experience since they make military decisions. no, they have the military. He must have humane decisions the best military does not help if we tear the land from the inside out. like now islam in europe Edited October 3, 2018 by goor_de Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 Perhaps I should amend my comments or at least clarify a few thing. I did not touch on any standards for acceptance into the military. One point I would like to put forward at this time - for all the arguments concerning individuals that should not be in the military - I do not understand why such individuals should vote. There is a problem with those that suffer mental difficulties. The main problem is that there is such a wide spectrum of mental issues - there is no one solution for all. But I am of the mind that what incapacitates a person from serving in the military should restrict their unfettered access in society and how such society should be governed. One thing we have not touched on is education. I believe there are many problems in our current educational structure. But there are two disciplines that are not taught in our public school that I believe ought to be. One is religious education - both from a historical and moral point of view. I believe it is impossible to understand history without understanding the moral implications of the dominate religions doctrines in play. The second lack of discipline in education has a direct impact on the discussion of this thread - that is a understanding of firearms and their use along with responsibilities and obligations of owning and using firearms. The use of firearms is so prevalent in entertainment - I think it foolish not to expect those involved in such entertainment (at any level) to be educated in such matters. Initially the Boy Scouts was created to prepare boys to be ready to serve in the military as they reached adulthood. The concepts were deeply seeded in patriotism which includes service to G-d and country. There is a saying - that there are no atheists in foxholes. It seems to me that those that currently serve in the military - do so because they were brought up (educated) with the concepts of military service as a patriotic obligation. That there is a level of pride and honor that comes from being in the military. I believe every citizen in a free society should be so prepared and morally obligated. I also believe someone (other than certain handicaps) not prepared for military service - it is because their education is flawed. And a flawed education will always be a deterrent to a free and stable society. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 39 minutes ago, Traveler said: I do not understand why such individuals should vote Right, who cares if you were born with a muscle disease that makes you unable to carry out the physical demands of a soldier, but an IQ in the genius range and common sense dripping out your ears - no voting for you! We want only the muscle-bound, capable-of-shooting-a-gun types voting. For someone who is presumably pretty dang intelligent you sure have a blind spot in this area. Colirio 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 Quote One point I would like to put forward at this time - for all the arguments concerning individuals that should not be in the military - I do not understand why such individuals should vote. You also said that they shouldn't be citizens. Quote It seems to me that those that currently serve in the military - do so because they were brought up (educated) with the concepts of military service as a patriotic obligation. A lot of people join for the GI Bill and other reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 @Colirio, @warnerfranklin, @Scott I agree with you that you don't want to draft into the military people who are not qualified to be military. In the Philippines, you don't get drafted into the military. Rather, you get military training as civilians (hence the term, Citizens Army). So you're basically a ready-made militia. The advantage to this is that, when enemy forces invade, then you're not relying solely on the military to save your bums. Every citizen of age has some kind of training that aligns with military protocols on how to defend their homes and community. This set-up would be constitutional in the US. @Traveler has a different idea in that military service is some sort of "stake" in the claim for citizenship. The idea is interesting but I'm not sure it is constitutional. warnerfranklin and SilentOne 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordorbund Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 hour ago, zil said: Right, who cares if you were born with a muscle disease that makes you unable to carry out the physical demands of a soldier, That's what the Air Force is for.... Vort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnsonJones Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 8 minutes ago, mordorbund said: That's what the Air Force is for.... Ouch... On the non-joking side I have heard that the tests to become a flyer or Pilot are quite strenuous and more so to even enter that career field than most others. Not only do they have the normal PT tests, they have a sitting test, aptitude tests, an EKG, vision tests, and various other things before they can even go to Boot Camp. I had a son-in-law who went to be a flyer in the Air Force (Navigator or WSO or something like that) and they had a barrage of various tests for him to go through before he could go through to Camp (not Boot Camp, but an equivalent for those who went the College route and got four year degrees and then entered in the Air Force and such). Pressing Forward 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 29 minutes ago, mordorbund said: That's what the Air Force is for.... Not to make you feel awful or anything, but my husband was in the Air Force (not when we were married, before we met). I still have the flag from his coffin in the living room. Just sayin' Of course, I think he would have laughed at this: SpiritDragon, Vort and mordorbund 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordorbund Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 4 minutes ago, zil said: Not to make you feel awful or anything, but my husband was in the Air Force (not when we were married, before we met). I still have the flag from his coffin in the living room. Just sayin' Of course, I think he would have laughed at this: My family went to visit my brother's family on his AF base. My little kids were excited to see the airplanes up close. Turns out, this base is in the "import/export" business (moving ordinance via train) and didn't have any planes on it. It still hasn't sunk in for me yet.... An AIR Force base... with no planes.... But he's just glad that he doesn't think the different colors of crayons mean different flavors (I have another brother who's a Marine - also an ordnance worker). zil and Vort 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 5:12 PM, NeuroTypical said: If you read Starship Troopers, you'll get what Traveler is trying to say. (Or visit Israel.) I really, really like the Starship Troopers model. Not sure it would work in The Real World®, but it would be worth a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 @Traveler, you know I have huge respect for you even if we disagree strongly on this issue. Thank you for your service to the country and putting your life on the line so I have the freedom not to serve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colirio Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 4 hours ago, anatess2 said: So you're basically a ready-made militia. The advantage to this is that, when enemy forces invade, then you're not relying solely on the military to save your bums. Every citizen of age has some kind of training that aligns with military protocols on how to defend their homes and community. As a martial combatives instructor who has trained probably thousands of students over the years, I don't disagree that militia training could be valuable. I also believe that the military experience can be a wonderful thing for a young man. I also believe that freedom isn't free, it is the duty of every citizen to defend their religion, family, and freedom, and that means that people SHOULD seek the means and understanding to be able to do so. However, that does not mean that the government needs to be that training. It especially doesn't mean that the government should enforce a law which demands it of its citizenry. The natural outcome of Traveler's suggestion of only ex-military having the right to vote is dangerous. You would have the suppression of entire segments of society whose religious beliefs and physical ailments mean that they have no voice. That is the opposite of freedom. The suggestion of government assistance being given only to those who served in the military is downright silly IMO. They live here, pay taxes into the system, and contribute to society like other people, so why should they be excluded? Because they weren't soldiers for two years? 🙄 I have lived and worked in third world countries. I have seen what starvation actually looks like. It is awful. I am glad we don't let people starve. The system we have is imperfect, yes. But I'm glad it's there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnsonJones Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 If I recall Starship troopers, being a citizen was not just open to those who served in the military. It is ironic considering some of the same folks opinion of the alternate route. If one was a government worker (aka...civil worker) they could also get citizenship. What's funny is that many who are pro-military these days are anti-government workers. However, from what I recall of the book one could choose the military or several years serving as a civil servant with the government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/3/2018 at 10:06 AM, zil said: Right, who cares if you were born with a muscle disease that makes you unable to carry out the physical demands of a soldier, but an IQ in the genius range and common sense dripping out your ears - no voting for you! We want only the muscle-bound, capable-of-shooting-a-gun types voting. For someone who is presumably pretty dang intelligent you sure have a blind spot in this area. I would ask a question of all readers of this thread - What would be your opinion if we were considering only the Kingdom of G-d and the citizens of that society in the pre-existence? The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Traveler said: I would ask a question of all readers of this thread - What would be your opinion if we were considering only the Kingdom of G-d and the citizens of that society in the pre-existence? The Traveler Are you trying to draw some parallel between pre-mortality and being born with a physical disability in mortality? Or are you trying to say that for the purposes of this discussion, you want to establish an artificial assumption that we're only talking about those who are physically capable of serving in the military? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 44 minutes ago, zil said: Are you trying to draw some parallel between pre-mortality and being born with a physical disability in mortality? Or are you trying to say that for the purposes of this discussion, you want to establish an artificial assumption that we're only talking about those who are physically capable of serving in the military? I am talking about what obligations free people (individuals) have toward the society that maintains their freedom. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Traveler said: I am talking about what obligations free people (individuals) have toward the society that maintains their freedom. The obligation to obey the law, pay your taxes, and leave the other person alone. That is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, MormonGator said: The obligation to obey the law, pay your taxes, and leave the other person alone. That is it. Do I understand you to say that no citizen in heaven had any obligation directly concerning the war in our pre-existent heaven? The Traveler Edited October 5, 2018 by Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Traveler said: Do I understand you to say that no citizen in heaven had any obligation directly concerning the war in our pre-existent heaven? The Traveler No, you don't. This has nothing to do with what we did in the pre-existence. First off, there is no such thing as "society.". Society is, at it's core, a group of individuals. Second and fundamentally-the only thing I owe someone else is to leave them alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted October 6, 2018 Report Share Posted October 6, 2018 I don't believe in slavery as a condition of citizenship. Colirio 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted October 6, 2018 Report Share Posted October 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Grunt said: I don't believe in slavery as a condition of citizenship. Neither do I. But I do believe that privileges imply and require responsibilities, and that those who refuse responsibility forfeit privilege. Traveler and mordorbund 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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