Military Obligation

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

Neither do I. But I do believe that privileges imply and require responsibilities, and that those who refuse responsibility forfeit privilege.

I disagree.  First, I don't want people who don't want to serve in the military.  Second, I shouldn't be enslaved by anyone simply because of my geography.

[Colirio]

5 hours ago, Vort said:

Neither do I. But I do believe that privileges imply and require responsibilities, and that those who refuse responsibility forfeit privilege.

Responsibilities? 

Yes. 

That is why people pay taxes. 

Just like the people of Ammon paid the way for the Nephites to protect them. 

And those who pay their taxes are entitled to the regulated financial benefits. 

[Vort]

56 minutes ago, Colirio said:

Responsibilities? 

Yes. 

That is why people pay taxes. 

Just like the people of Ammon paid the way for the Nephites to protect them. 

And those who pay their taxes are entitled to the regulated financial benefits. 

The people of Ammon are an especially bad example. Murderers by their own admission, they did not merely refuse to fight as "conscientious objectors". The were willing to allow themselves and their wives and children to be tortured to death without lifting a finger, as an absolute sign to God that they would ever kill anyone ever again.

A far better example would be the Nephite antipatriots who refused to fight when threatened by the Lamanites. Moroni's response? Execute them for refusal to do their duty.

I'm sure those antipatriots paid their taxes.

[Guest MormonGator]

@Vort, when someone is forced to do something and doesn't want to be there, they won't put in the same effort as someone who really wants to be there will.  Human nature. 

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Vort, when someone is forced to do something and doesn't want to be there, they won't put in the same effort as someone who really wants to be there will.  Human nature. 

The issue is not compulsory service. The issue is who has the franchise.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Vort

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

That is not the issue. It is not even close to the issue.

Actually, when talking about a military draft, that is a huge part of the issue. 

[Vort]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Actually, when talking about a military draft, that is a huge part of the issue. 

As I changed above: "The issue is not compulsory service. The issue is who has the franchise."

I am not arguing that people be drafted. I'm no fan of a draft. I'm arguing that only those willing to act as citizens should have the privileges of citizenship.

[NeuroTypical]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Vort, when someone is forced to do something and doesn't want to be there, they won't put in the same effort as someone who really wants to be there will.  Human nature. 

Yep - Starship Troopers was indeed a heck of a book.

Bifurcated citizenship.  If you wanted to be a full citizen with full rights, you had to do a stint in the military.  The recruiter was the most battle-scarred limb-missing ugly person they could find.  He argued with you and tried to talk you out of joining up, pointing out that you would probably die or end up at least as crippled as he was.  Voting wasn't worth it.  But if you fought past him, and did your stint, you got to vote.  Nobody got forced to do anything.   (Well, except they had this cool way of making soldiers sleep on command and wake up on command - that was kind of cool.)

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

 I'm no fan of a draft. 

Atta boy. 

[mordorbund]

Taxes are just a way to convert a portion of my life and labor into government service. How is that less slavery than military service?

[Colirio]

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

Taxes are just a way to convert a portion of my life and labor into government service. How is that less slavery than military service?

 

A portion. Not the totality of your mortality. 

1. You are still free to pursue life, liberty, and happiness in the manner you see fit with a portion of what you make going towards a national defense, infrastructure, etc. 

2. Military service means being obligated to die for the interests of your political leaders. 

 

The real issue is what was was stated in my original post. The problems of forced military service in times of war is well documented. Drafted soldiers in Vietnam, for example, purposely tried to set their commanders in the line of fire to have them killed. When that didn't always work, there were cases of soldiers murdering their commanding officers and blaming it on enemy fire. They did not want to fight. You cannot easily force someone to give their life for a cause they do not believe in.

 

In the end, you have a fraction of the group having to carry the workload of the rest of the group who won't work. Sound familiar? It should. It's how every other government program operates. 

 

[Colirio]

6 hours ago, Vort said:

 I'm arguing that only those willing to act as citizens should have the privileges of citizenship.

 

Such as sustaining the laws of the government and paying their taxes? If so, then I agree. 

 

I would even agree that citizens SHOULD be willing to die in defense of their loved ones and liberties. But mandatory enforcement would infringe on first amendment rights, IMO. 

[mordorbund]

5 hours ago, Colirio said:

 

A portion. Not the totality of your mortality. 

And I don't think Traveler's proposal was for us to spend the totality of mortality in military service.

Quote

1. You are still free to pursue life, liberty, and happiness in the manner you see fit with a portion of what you make going towards a national defense, infrastructure, etc. 

2. Military service means being obligated to die for the interests of your political leaders. 

 

1. And within military service, there's a wide variety of ways to serve. After all, a submarine still needs a cook. But you will cook with a gun in your hand. You will defend your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness in the manner you see fit (provided there's a need, otherwise you'll have to get what you get - like jobs in any economy) and that portion of your life goes towards national defense. Instead of your labor only proxying defense with money and taxes as middlemen, your labor will actually provide defense.

2. It does. And in this system, you don't get to be a political leader unless you've been through it. That means a number of leaders will have served and seen friends die when we fail to count the cost.

Quote

The real issue is what was was stated in my original post. The problems of forced military service in times of war is well documented. Drafted soldiers in Vietnam, for example, purposely tried to set their commanders in the line of fire to have them killed. When that didn't always work, there were cases of soldiers murdering their commanding officers and blaming it on enemy fire. They did not want to fight. You cannot easily force someone to give their life for a cause they do not believe in.

 

In the end, you have a fraction of the group having to carry the workload of the rest of the group who won't work. Sound familiar? It should. It's how every other government program operates. 

And this is why the proposal is not to force it. If you want to be a full citizen, with the right to vote and hold office, then you serve in the military. If not, then don't worry about it. 

[NeuroTypical]

When one side is in power, the other side will occasionally mention the draft as a way of getting partisan supporters to question their support for this or that war effort.  If the war effort is unpopular enough, many in the side out of power will actively campaign for the draft, including expanding it to women.

[Colirio]

21 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

And I don't think Traveler's proposal was for us to spend the totality of mortality in military service.

 

That is exactly the obligation of military service. Being obligated to *die* for the interests of political leaders is the end of your mortal experience should they choose. 

 

In military service for this country, you take an oath to die for your country. 

 

Quote

2. It does. And in this system, you don't get to be a political leader unless you've been through it. That means a number of leaders will have served and seen friends die when we fail to count the cost.

 

Nobody is saying that being willing to serve their country in a military role isn't noble. It is. And I am very grateful and honor those who do. 

And I totally understand the need of having a commander-in-chief who understands the value of human life. 

I reject the proposal that the only way to appreciate human life is to have been a soldier. 

 

Quote

And this is why the proposal is not to force it. If you want to be a full citizen, with the right to vote and hold office, then you serve in the military. If not, then don't worry about it. 

 

Preposterous. 

 

The entire reason this country threw off the shackles of an oppressive government was because of their desires for freedom from tyrannical rule. So, you would then place those shackles back onto the people, turning them from citizens back into subjects, unless they are willing to die for whatever political leader who happens to be in office at the time? 

 

I reject your desires to limit my liberty and spit on the very idea. 

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, Colirio said:

Responsibilities? 

Yes. 

That is why people pay taxes. 

Just like the people of Ammon paid the way for the Nephites to protect them. 

And those who pay their taxes are entitled to the regulated financial benefits. 

Are you aware that a growing amount of US citizens do not pay taxes?

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Maybe before we can decide of we have a military obligation we ought to define what a military obligation was.  Perhaps we could refer to Moroni's letter to the chief Judge?

 

The Traveler

[Colirio]

9 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Are you aware that a growing amount of US citizens do not pay taxes?

 

The Traveler

Beside the point. 

 

That is is an issue of policy and procedural negotiation.

 

The truth is that we could do away with income tax altogether if we got the socialists out of office. There have been many other methods (fair tax, etc.) that could work. However, this simply changes the procedural way in which responsibilities of citizens are met. 

[Vort]

8 hours ago, Colirio said:

Such as sustaining the laws of the government and paying their taxes? If so, then I agree.

Such as voting.

[Grunt]

12 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Taxes are just a way to convert a portion of my life and labor into government service. How is that less slavery than military service?

It absolutely isn't different.  Taxation is theft.  We weren't discussing taxation, though.

[Traveler]

Just heard on Michael Savage that there is a report out that 1/3 of the youth in the USA are physically unfit to serve in the military.  I would think that this is a parenting problem - what have we done to our country?  What have we done to the human race?

 

The Traveler

 

[Guest MormonGator]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

Just heard on Michael Savage that there is a report out that 1/3 of the youth in the USA are physically unfit to serve in the military.  I would think that this is a parenting problem - what have we done to our country?  What have we done to the human race?

 

The Traveler

 

@Traveler, Michael Savage is NOT a reliable source of unbiased information. In fact, the guy is a babbling idiot. 
 

[anatess2]

13 hours ago, MormonGator said:

@Traveler, Michael Savage is NOT a reliable source of unbiased information. In fact, the guy is a babbling idiot. 
 

You are incorrect.  I don't like the Savage Nation but he's far from a babbling idiot.  And biased information doesn't make a fact false.  "The sun rises in the east" is true regardless of whether a left-winger or a right-winger presents the information.

@Traveler made it sound too peachy.  The report actually states that 71% of today's youth between 17-24 years old can't qualify for military service even if they have the desire to join the military due to these 4 main factors:  1.) Health - 32%, 2.) Physical Fitness - 27%, 3.) Education - 25%, 4.) Criminality - 10%. Some youth are disqualified for more than 1 reason.

 

[SpiritDragon]

I met a man from Switzerland who explained with great national pride about the Swiss system of compulsory military service. I had been ignorant to this fact prior to meeting him not thinking that a neutral country would maintain peacetime conscription. Having heard from him and learning a little more poking around the internet, I think the Swiss system doesn't seem so bad. They basically require all capable male citizens to go through basic training and serve for nine months time with periodic training updates over a ten year period. Those found unfit to serve do not have to serve but do pay an additional 3% tax for the ten year period they would have been required to stay up to date with service training.

I'm not really for forced armed service, but I can agree that it would be useful to have some common unifying service to help people bond. I'd think that forced service without being forced into active duty could be a good way to go. Essentially, everyone would get basic training and have an understanding of how things work, but then continue to serve their term, which might only need to be six months or so to accomplish a shared unifying experience, by doing disaster relief, infrastructure construction and repairs, perhaps working with firefighters and law enforcement and so on. Basically, train citizens to understand a little about basic military service and command structure and then teach them to work hard as part of a team early in life before unleashing them on the rest of the workforce and voting populace. (I also have a soft spot for anyone working retail, where I think everyone should have to work retail for a period of time, perhaps over the Christmas Holidays so they can be more empathetic toward those serving them in this capacity.)

[Colirio]

There are certain things that government does very poorly. 

 

Education is one of those things. 

 

Several on these forums won't even send their kids to a government education center. (school) Would you really desire that the broken government educational centers instruct everyone on how to conduct warfare? Do you really believe this will fix the woes of a broken society? 

 

When we get the next "King Noah" type of leader, would you really want your kids having to serve them or else have no voting power to remove them? 

 

My belief is that the gospel of Jesus Christ is THE answer, not more government education and/or involvement in our lives.