Lies we tell our daughters: Have a career.

[The Folk Prophet]

42 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I don't think that I thought about definitions that closely (who knows, maybe I did not think at all). Since you pressed me on it, I would say it is more 2 than 1 -- more towards how this fosters stereotypical gender roles. I think I have made comments on this forum to the effect that I am not convinced that many/most/maybe all of the gender stereotypes we use to describe men and women are universally true. Perhaps I am thinking counter to the Family Proclamation, but I am also not sure about strict adherence to the described/prescribed gender roles given in the Family Proclamation.

I agree that 2 is what we're talking about. And I would argue that there's nothing wrong with 2, and that claiming 2 is, de facto, wrong IS counter to the Proclamation on the Family.

Clearly expecting women (or men) to conform to meaningless social constructs can sometimes be a problem (but it certainly doesn't have to be a problem if no one has a problem with it). But women's primary role as mothers and nurturers is not a merely a social construct, neither is men's primary role as breadwinners.

"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed."

Edited October 3, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Lost Boy]

I kind of found his rant annoying.

Job/Career...  who cares?  They both take time from the family and both can be equally demanding.

I have encouraged all of my daughters to get educated.  Be prepared to work.  Chances are they will have to work outside the home at some point in life.  I want them to be able to do what they at least enjoy to some degree.

Their mother stayed at home till they were in their teens.  They know what it is like to have a stay at home mom.  They know what it is like to have a mom that works outside the home.  I don't have to tell them what road they need to travel.  They have seen both road, but need to make that decision on their own.  I just want to ensure that they have a good education so they can have that choice and not have that choice made for them.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I have encouraged all of my daughters to get educated. 

I said the same thing to my younger female family members. Get an education so you can rely on yourself, not a man. The good news is that it is pretty standard advice outside super conservative circles. It's incredibly antiquated to imply or say that women should stay home and not seek employment outside their house. If that's a woman wants to do, fine. Nothing wrong with that. But to take away the option to work outside is both incredibly controlling and rather useless. A womans place is wherever she chooses it to be. 

[Lost Boy]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I said the same thing to my younger female family members. Get an education so you can rely on yourself, not a man. The good news is that it is pretty standard advice outside super conservative circles. It's incredibly antiquated to imply or say that women should stay home and not seek employment outside their house. If that's a woman wants to do, fine. Nothing wrong with that. But to take away the option to work outside is both incredibly controlling and rather useless. A womans place is wherever she chooses it to be. 

I completely agree.  But I also think that talking with them about being a stay at home mom and letting them know that it is a noble thing to do should be done as well.  I don't want them to feel compelled to do either.  Give them information and let them be who they will.

[The Folk Prophet]

14 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

A womans place is wherever she chooses it to be. 

That is true. Celestial. Terrestrial. Telesital. Outer Darkness. Her choice.

[anatess2]

22 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I kind of found his rant annoying.

Job/Career...  who cares?  They both take time from the family and both can be equally demanding.

I have encouraged all of my daughters to get educated.  Be prepared to work.  Chances are they will have to work outside the home at some point in life.  I want them to be able to do what they at least enjoy to some degree.

Their mother stayed at home till they were in their teens.  They know what it is like to have a stay at home mom.  They know what it is like to have a mom that works outside the home.  I don't have to tell them what road they need to travel.  They have seen both road, but need to make that decision on their own.  I just want to ensure that they have a good education so they can have that choice and not have that choice made for them.

The bolded part can be confusing.  But I'm sure you meant that sentence to be - you promote free agency with your daughter.  As a parent, we teach our children the road they need to travel.  The iron rod and all that stuff.   But we allow them to have the choice on whether they'll follow the road or not and let them succeed or fail on their own.  I tell my children, this is the road proven to bring you joy.  You can follow it or not and I retain the right to say, "I told you so."  A woman finds fulfillment in the care and nurture of people, not things.  This is not a mere gender stereotype.  This comes with the biological make-up of the female that guarantees the survival of the species.  In the same token, a man can find fulfillment in things.  It comes with their biological make-up that also contributes to the survival of the species.  Cue in the - I'm female and I prefer things than people... yeah yeah.  When we talk macro stuff, we don't talk outliers.

The interesting pandora's box here is... we have people thinking they have to be able to do everything to be worth something and then we end up with a society complaining about how stressed out they are.  Interestingly, this wide range of choices is a byproduct of economic privilege because the poor folks just goes and does what needs to be done the most efficient way it gets done without worrying about how that work defines their worth.  The poor folks instinctively knows their lives are defined by their pride in their family, not the pride in their jobs.  The light of Christ and all that.

Edited October 4, 2018 by anatess2

[The Folk Prophet]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The bolded part can be confusing [is wrong].

Fixed it.

[Anddenex]

So when someone is asked specific questions about women or teenage girls (and he doesn't introduce men or young men in his answer, although the questions is about women or young women) a person is sexist? 🤔

Or, if a person makes a video that is directed toward women (and the individual specifies as such) that person is sexist? 😮

So if he were to make a video that asked questions and was geared toward young men and men (but doesn't make mention of teenage girls or women, although the questions are about young men and men) he is sexist?

There is the logic that is a cancer to our society.

 

 

[Lost Boy]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

The bolded part can be confusing.  But I'm sure you meant that sentence to be - you promote free agency with your daughter.  As a parent, we teach our children the road they need to travel.  The iron rod and all that stuff.   But we allow them to have the choice on whether they'll follow the road or not and let them succeed or fail on their own.  I tell my children, this is the road proven to bring you joy.  You can follow it or not and I retain the right to say, "I told you so."  A woman finds fulfillment in the care and nurture of people, not things.  This is not a mere gender stereotype.  This comes with the biological make-up of the female that guarantees the survival of the species.  In the same token, a man can find fulfillment in things.  It comes with their biological make-up that also contributes to the survival of the species.  Cue in the - I'm female and I prefer things than people... yeah yeah.  When we talk macro stuff, we don't talk outliers.

The interesting pandora's box here is... we have people thinking they have to be able to do everything to be worth something and then we end up with a society complaining about how stressed out they are.  Interestingly, this wide range of choices is a byproduct of economic privilege because the poor folks just goes and does what needs to be done the most efficient way it gets done without worrying about how that work defines their worth.  The poor folks instinctively knows their lives are defined by their pride in their family, not the pride in their jobs.  The light of Christ and all that.

I don't think you need to be able to do everything, but I would hope that they have a broad education so that if they want to pursue something they can.  And more important, that they can make intelligent decisions in life.  If I were a young single guy, I would want to find a spouse that didn't have to ask me advice on everything.  On big decisions, I would want a spouse that can add meaningful conversation to it.

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I don't think you need to be able to do everything, but I would hope that they have a broad education so that if they want to pursue something they can.  And more important, that they can make intelligent decisions in life.  If I were a young single guy, I would want to find a spouse that didn't have to ask me advice on everything.  On big decisions, I would want a spouse that can add meaningful conversation to it.

Yeah, that's completely different from what Peterson is talking about.  It's this new-fangled idea that there are few women on STEM because they are oppressed/suppressed and that we should teach our daughters to aspire for a career in the STEM field to overcome that oppression/suppression.

[Lost Boy]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Yeah, that's completely different from what Peterson is talking about.  It's this new-fangled idea that there are few women on STEM because they are oppressed/suppressed and that we should teach our daughters to aspire for a career in the STEM field to overcome that oppression/suppression.

I am a mechanical engineer. You go into engineering because you love it... And because it pays fairly well. I could have gone into a profession that pays a lot more, but I didn't because being rich isn't really my motive for work. 

I wouldn't push my daughters into stem, but I would hope that they are educated enough that if that's what they want to do, they can do it. Pushing your child into a career path is not good, maybe not for the reason he states. I know a lot of female engineers that got into engineering, because they wanted to show that they were up to the challenge. They found out that they were, but that they weren't happy with in their career.  Of course I know a lot of guys that aren't happy either and I know women that are great engineers. 

[anatess2]

15 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I am a mechanical engineer. You go into engineering because you love it... And because it pays fairly well. I could have gone into a profession that pays a lot more, but I didn't because being rich isn't really my motive for work. 

I wouldn't push my daughters into stem, but I would hope that they are educated enough that if that's what they want to do, they can do it. Pushing your child into a career path is not good, maybe not for the reason he states. I know a lot of female engineers that got into engineering, because they wanted to show that they were up to the challenge. They found out that they were, but that they weren't happy with in their career.  Of course I know a lot of guys that aren't happy either and I know women that are great engineers. 

I am a computer engineer.  The summer when I was 11 yrs old, my older brother was offered a chance to take a computer class.  Computers were a new-fangled thing in the Philippines in the 80's, it was super futuristic of our school to offer such a summer class and my brother, the star student of the school, had first dibs.  My dad paid the super expensive summer tuition and my brother got offered an opportunity to take officer's training in the Citizen's Army for the summer so he can start the school year as an officer.  At the time, I was getting in and out of trouble so my dad had this bright idea to force me into my brother's place in computer summer school and lessen the burden and stress on my mother.  I got obsessed by the TRS-80 and ever since then I've been a programmer.  So, I graduated high school at 15 and went to college.  I wanted to apply for the new-fangled Information Systems course.  My dad wanted me to be a nurse or a teacher because I'm a girl.  I told him no, I want to be a programmer.  During that time in the 80's, programmers were those IBM stiff suit bunch of nerdy boys who are like Martians.  Anyway, my dad told me - if you're going to insist on doing a "man's job" then do it right - be an engineer.  So, I enrolled in computer engineering.  

I got married, got 2 kids, and work as a programmer from my house.  You can't do that as an engineer - if you're going to do it right, you're going to have to spend a lot of time away from your children.  So, no more engineering for me.  Engineering is a tough field.  You don't need to be educated enough to become one if you're not in that field.  Eating calculus for breakfast is not for everybody.

Edited October 5, 2018 by anatess2