Am I understanding this right?


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Specifically regarding the order of salvation.

For instance the typical Protestant view would be: election, gospel call, regeneration, conversion, justification, adoption, sanctification. Catholic as best as I understand it is: actual grace, gospel call, faith/conversion, baptism/regeneration, justification coupled with sanctification.

Would the LDS view be premortal existence, gospel call, conversion (faith and repentance), baptism and the gift of the HS, and enduring to the end?

Peace, Tele

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The Catholic order of salvation is as follows:  grace, faith, contrition, baptism/regeneration, penance, glorification.

The LDS is different.  Premortal Existence is not an order of salvation, rather it is a state of being just like mortal existence is a state of being.  So, the plan of salvation visual aids for LDS instruction show premortal existence but it's not that state of being that is the order of salvation but what free agency is exercised at that state of being.  Make sense?  So, here's the plan of salvation:  https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith/plan-of-salvation?lang=eng.  

 

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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't have any order of salvation, and you will probably receive a variety of responses pertaining to what each individual members feels is important in that order. If I were to simplify the Church's teaching regarding the order of salvation it would be this scripture from Nephi (2 Nephi 33: 6):

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I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

In light of this the order would be believe in Jesus Christ and do as he has commanded, and if we do this we will not only be saved we will be exalted.

If I were to add to that a little I would share this verse of scripture from Moses 6:60 for an order of salvation:

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For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

If we were to add to that order and provide something similar to what you have provided it would be such: first estate, invited/called, spiritually begotten (born again), chosen/elect, keep the commandments (i.e. repentance), and saving ordinances (throughout this whole process Moses 6:60 is applied).

Edited by Anddenex
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On a serious note...as best I understand what 'order of salvation' is, I'd say the covenant path is a pretty good model. A la, baptism, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, priesthood ordination for men, the temple endowment, marriage, and so forth. 

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On 10/12/2018 at 9:59 AM, Telemantros said:

Specifically regarding the order of salvation.

For instance the typical Protestant view would be: election, gospel call, regeneration, conversion, justification, adoption, sanctification. Catholic as best as I understand it is: actual grace, gospel call, faith/conversion, baptism/regeneration, justification coupled with sanctification.

Would the LDS view be premortal existence, gospel call, conversion (faith and repentance), baptism and the gift of the HS, and enduring to the end?

Peace, Tele

You're making things WAAAY too complicated.

1) God urges person to come to Him.

2) Person listens and decides to heed His voice.

3) God empowers person a single step towards Him (if they so desire/accept).  This could be a number things: acknowledging Him as Lord, turning away from things that aren't His ways (aka repenting), and/or actively growing towards Him (like accepting the gift of faith, or loving better, etc).

Repeat step 1-3 until a person is completely like Him.  That will be sometime well after the Millennium and Resurrection.  And even then we still bow do and celebrate our Lord.  

 

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@Jane_Doe 

Hi! I don't think I'm making it any more complicated than it needs to be, I'm just engaging in theology. LDS do engage in systematic theology yes? These would simply be moments of the salvation process, each with some import. I thank you for your three steps. I also appreciate that for many, there just needs to be a functional understanding of how things work when it comes to salvation and repentance. But my mind does not work like that. I want to make sure I understand what is being taught; call it a flaw, or call it a virtue - but it is who I am.

Cheers, Tele

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3 minutes ago, Telemantros said:

Thanks everyone. So is it accurate to say that on the LDS view, a believer is finally justified before God after being obedient, that is, after a process of transformation?

Peace, tele

The Protestant concept of "justification" doesn't really carry over well to LDS beliefs (there's a ton of difference in the nuances), so I'm really hesitant to address that question as it's phrased.

We never keep needing God-- we're never "done" with Him.  Even in the eternities when a person completely reflects His character, no long has an desire to sin, etc,  He's still going to be our Lord.  

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Just now, Telemantros said:

@Jane_Doe 

Hi! I don't think I'm making it any more complicated than it needs to be, I'm just engaging in theology. LDS do engage in systematic theology yes?

Not really.  

The LDS focus is much more on discipleship and relationship-wtih-God-&-men, rather than formal academic-style theology.  It's much more a "go and do" style.

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6 minutes ago, Telemantros said:

Thanks everyone. So is it accurate to say that on the LDS view, a believer is finally justified before God after being obedient, that is, after a process of transformation?

Peace, tele

Forgive me, but I’m not sure what “justified” really means here.  We just aren’t used to speaking/thinking in those terms.  We think of our relationship with God in very much of a parent-child context.  How would you engage me if I asked you when your kids will be finally justified in your eyes?  Would you point to the moment your kids were potty trained?  When they learn to talk?  To walk?  To hug?  To read?  When they graduate from middle school, or high school?  

To me “salvation” is a process, a conversation, an education; with God continually teaching and encouraging and calling us to do better, and with us sometimes walking, sometimes running, sometimes falling—but hopefully always moving forward to answer His calls.  And as @Jane_Doe says, it’s never really over.  

If you’re asking when we are at a point where we will never fall from grace—the answer revolves around an LDS term called “having your calling and election made sure”, receiving the “more sure word of prophecy”, or receiving the “second comforter”.  Those phrases all refer to the same thing:  a time when Jesus Christ Himself appears to you and promises that your salvation is assured.  That may occur in this life, or it may not happen until the resurrection.  

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58 minutes ago, Telemantros said:

LDS do engage in systematic theology yes?

No.  From the forward (written by R. Douglas Phillips) to Hugh Nibley's The World and the Prophets (emphasis mine):

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It is thus abundantly clear that the whole philosophical theological enterprise, however well intended, is incompatible with the existence of continuing revelation. For that reason there can never be a theology, a systematic theology as such, in the true Church, and thus we should be overwhelmingly grateful for our living prophets.

...it's an excellent description of the book, which shows how the Church changed from what Christ established into a philosophical, political, creedal creation of scholars; and how Christ's true church is witnessed through the guidance and testimony of prophets, the Holy Ghost, and scripture.

That said:

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Moses 6:59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

Whether anyone else can properly understand these verses without understanding more teachings of the Church is in doubt, however.

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As to the bit on formalized theology: LDS people/theology stress on going God for answers and also learning by doing.  God, being a loving Father, gives individualized answers the best way each person is going to learn/understand.  So you'll get many different takes on people explaining the exact same thing-- just which particular explanation works best for that individual person.   

Formal theological studies aren't LDS style, and some folks to so such in a negative light--- that you're looking to man for answers instead of asking God.  And indeed, *if* a person/people stop looking to God for whatever reason, that's a bad thing.  Obviously it doesn't always happen with formalized theology, but it can happen.

For my view: I'm an academic by training, finishing up my science PhD this year.  I'm totally a studier and see nothing wrong with thinking things through in a logical manner-- I do it all the time :).  Thinking in a logical manner doesn't mean you're not looking towards God.  I don't think anyone is going to say "thinking logically is a bad thing!".   But there is something very wrong with ever thinking what we know everything -- we totally don't, and there are many unknowns in the world (speaking both about theology and science).   We should indeed seek new information and practice/test what we do 'know' thus far.  And when some new piece of knowledge comes up, we should welcome it --- even if that means we need to change our previous thinking.  Never should we reject new information (theological or scientific) because it doesn't fit in our previously drawn box.  

Edited by Jane_Doe
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3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Forgive me, but I’m not sure what “justified” really means here.

5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.
6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.
7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

2 Nephi 2

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On 10/12/2018 at 10:15 AM, Anddenex said:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't have any order of salvation, and you will probably receive a variety of responses pertaining to what each individual members feels is important in that order. If I were to simplify the Church's teaching regarding the order of salvation it would be this scripture from Nephi (2 Nephi 33: 6):

Well, after reading the responses I was definitely prophetic ;)

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On 10/13/2018 at 2:04 PM, Telemantros said:

Thanks everyone. So is it accurate to say that on the LDS view, a believer is finally justified before God after being obedient, that is, after a process of transformation?

Peace, tele

Have you read 2 Ne 31 as suggested?

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21 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Never should we reject new information (theological or scientific) because it doesn't fit in our previously drawn box.  

According to the Gospel Principles manual, it mentioned that heavenly parents attained their fullness of joy.  Has the LDS Church
offered any new information as to whom atoned for their sins so they could eventually achieve exaltation?

Thanks,
Jim

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1 hour ago, theplains said:

According to the Gospel Principles manual, it mentioned that heavenly parents attained their fullness of joy.  Has the LDS Church
offered any new information as to whom atoned for their sins so they could eventually achieve exaltation?

Thanks,
Jim

From what I understand, our Heavenly Parents were, like Jesus, free from sin. Imagine what they think of us! 

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4 hours ago, theplains said:

According to the Gospel Principles manual, it mentioned that heavenly parents attained their fullness of joy.  Has the LDS Church
offered any new information as to whom atoned for their sins so they could eventually achieve exaltation?

Thanks,
Jim

To teach that our Heavenly Parents required a third party to atone for Their sins, one first needs to establish that They ever sinned at all.

The life of our Lord shows that it is indeed possible to experience mortality without committing a single sin.  For all we know, the same could have been the case with Heavenly Father and Mother.  Speculation beyond that degree illustrates a certain degree of contempt for Them.

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On 10/13/2018 at 12:12 PM, Telemantros said:

LDS do engage in systematic theology yes?

No. We are a revealed religion. We get our teachings (ideally) from the revelations of Jesus Christ, not from systematic theology, which is worthless. To the extent that we as Saints depend on such methods, we are not in harmony with the gifts God has given to us.

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