Testifying about what others are not doing


Fether
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How do you testify of things that the person in front of you may not be living? Particularly when it is somewhat controversial.

Today both my wife and I found ourselves bearing testimony on a gospel topic that I know most of the people in earshot were not doing or following, many of which are good friends of ours. My wife was very nervous about the whole thing and didn’t want people to feel like we were judging them, but also didn’t want to remain silent on the topic. For me, my mindset was “I’m only backing what prophets have said and am going to let people think what they may”.

We both bore testimony, and it was only met with a man who was also aware of those in the room that are not living the principle “we can’t judge others on their decisions”

Ive always been if the philosophy of “if they are offended and don’t want to be friends with me cause I sustain the prophets, that is on them. I’m still ganna be inviting them over for games and dinner though cause they are awesome people.”

What do you do in these situations? When you have friends in the room that you don’t want to offend but know something needs to be said and a certain topic that they aren’t living? 

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IMO, the best way to do this is to testify of the blessings you have received from obedience, and that through those blessings, you know that the principle / doctrine is true.

At that point, those who don't want to hear won't have to, and those who are pricked by the Spirit with a desire to enjoy the blessings will be motivated rather than feeling like you're finding fault with them.

But I'm not one to get upset when people are unhappy with me saying something like "the scriptures teach us not to commit adultery" - if someone wants to respond to that with a comment about not judging others, my reaction is probably an internal eyeroll and moving on.

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While at church in a meeting or class...depends on what it is.

If it is things that MANY Mormons flat out ignore in relation to things prophets have said in the past (such as do not drink caffeinated drinks or any substance which may be habit forming) or things that may be found in advice to the youth (such as avoiding R-rated movies), typically I will remain silent on the topic.  It would seem to me that bringing up such items would cause far more conflict, angry feelings, and disruptive attitudes which drive away the spirit than simply leaving it alone.

In these instances I will try to build up the spirit rather then have something tear it down.  Others (and even legitimately) can claim it is either simply just my opinion or belief rather than anything upheld by the church, or that it was simply advice given for the time or people rather than any commandment.  Better to leave it alone unless I am commanded directly of the Lord to call people to repentance on the subject, at least in public.

On the otherhand, if it is a commandment to not commit fornication, that is a pretty straight forward commandment.  On that, I would fully state that we should not do such acts.  The same would apply with adultery and other commandments which are blatantly straight forward with no misunderstanding of what they entail.  I would express that those committing such sins probably have much to repent of.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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44 minutes ago, Fether said:

How do you testify of things that the person in front of you may not be living?

I guess it depends on why you want to do it.

If you're going for "passive-aggressive gossipy judgmental busy-body", just talk about the blessings of doing things differently than you think the other person is doing them.  Make sure you don't make direct eye contact with the target, but maybe occasionally glance their way.  You know, just enough so people can guess why you're testifying, but not enough that anyone would be able to make a credible case of you being rude.

If there's nothing passive-aggressive about you, and you just are a gossipy judgmental busy-body, just go right out and condemn the offensive behavior outright.  If someone wants to confront you about it, you can just call the offender out by name at that time.

Some blend of this also works if you're more holier-than-thou and less busy-body.  But if you're trying to look good while tearing someone else down, you also have to talk about why you are personally better.  Sometimes, relying on an audience to just understand that you do all the good things, isn't good enough.

It probably helps to try to keep the spirit away from you during these times.

 

[/OverTheTopSarcasm]

 

Hope that wasn't too insulting.  The real answer to your question, is to go find a way to legitimately love those people.  After you do that, and actually have a few clues about them and why they do things, then you let the spirit guide you.  You'd be surprised how little "calling out their behavior publicly in front of them" ends up being that desirable of a thing.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Well, I guess that presents the question: are you going into something determined to call (specific?) people to repentance, or are you bearing testimony as guided by the Spirit on fast Sunday, or called to give a talk, or teach a lesson, and you know many of your audience aren't doing the thing you feel guided to testify of / have been asked to talk / teach about?  My assumption was one of the latter (testimony prompted by Spirit, called to speak / teach).  If it's the former (you are considering deliberately calling out some behavior), consider long and hard whether it's right for you to do that.

Edited by zil
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1 hour ago, zil said:

IMO, the best way to do this is to testify of the blessings you have received from obedience, and that through those blessings, you know that the principle / doctrine is true.

At that point, those who don't want to hear won't have to, and those who are pricked by the Spirit with a desire to enjoy the blessings will be motivated rather than feeling like you're finding fault with them.

But I'm not one to get upset when people are unhappy with me saying something like "the scriptures teach us not to commit adultery" - if someone wants to respond to that with a comment about not judging others, my reaction is probably an internal eyeroll and moving on.

I think it’s also often helpful to acknowledge the sacrifice that obedience entails in a non-self-congratulatory sort of way; to show that you do understand how hard it is but to affirm that it *is* possible.  Maybe something along the lines of “When Sister Fether and I were newlyweds we had a lot conversations about whether she was going to keep working once our kids started coming.  We wrestled with it a lot, but ultimately when Baby Fetherling came along we took the leap and Sister Fether told her boss she wouldn’t be coming back from maternity leave.  That decision has hit us hard in a lot of ways; especially as we look at our fetherlings’ non-existent college savings accoint and when I compare our car to the ones our friends are driving.  But I love watching our fetherlings with their mom; and the relationship that’s been established wouldn’t have been the same if our kids were being raised eight hours a day by someone else.  And we’ve learned a lot about the law of tithing in some very soul-stretching ways.  I know that as parents, we all can only do what we can do; but overall I’m glad our family has been able to live as we have, and I believe the Lord has been watching over is.”

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My bishop said something rather interesting in our third hour a while back.  

Quote

We really are a ward family.  By that I mean that we are always trying to help each other and support each other.  And at the same time we can get on each others' nerves and we just move on.  Families get on each others' nerves, right?  Sometimes we even fight.  But we're forced to simply live with it.  We learn to deal with things like that we don't like.  And it really is one of the greatest lessons on forgiveness and charity.

I wish I had a family like that.  I guess I do now.

1 hour ago, Fether said:

but know something needs to be said 

Depends on how you determined this.

Edited by Guest
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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I guess it depends on why you want to do it.

If you're going for "passive-aggressive gossipy judgmental busy-body", just talk about the blessings of doing things differently than you think the other person is doing them.  Make sure you don't make direct eye contact with the target, but maybe occasionally glance their way.  You know, just enough so people can guess why you're testifying, but not enough that anyone would be able to make a credible case of you being rude.

If there's nothing passive-aggressive about you, and you just are a gossipy judgmental busy-body, just go right out and condemn the offensive behavior outright.  If someone wants to confront you about it, you can just call the offender out by name at that time.

Some blend of this also works if you're more holier-than-thou and less busy-body.  But if you're trying to look good while tearing someone else down, you also have to talk about why you are personally better.  Sometimes, relying on an audience to just understand that you do all the good things, isn't good enough.

It probably helps to try to keep the spirit away from you during these times.

 

[/OverTheTopSarcasm]

 

Hope that wasn't too insulting.  The real answer to your question, is to go find a way to legitimately love those people.  After you do that, and actually have a few clues about them and why they do things, then you let the spirit guide you.  You'd be surprised how little "calling out their behavior publicly in front of them" ends up being that desirable of a thing.

So we can’t testify of truth anymore cause anyone who does is holier-than-thou??

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4 minutes ago, Fether said:

If I were to say the thread would become a debate on the topic rather than my question

This tells me that it is more of a gray area than you're making it out to be.  That is why I asked how you determined that something "needed to be said".

If it really were a more serious issue (say, the fact that we should all homeschool our kids -- see what I did there?) then I think it is justified to use more firm language and bold tactics.  But with something that is less serious (but still wrong) then more gentle persuasion is usually in order.

Edited by Guest
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9 minutes ago, Fether said:

So we can’t testify of truth anymore cause anyone who does is holier-than-thou??

Isn't that generally the case? "I thank God I don't drink alcohol...give my 10%...don't smoke, gamble or chew..." Yeah, as good as all that is, it tends to sound self-promoting. On the other hand, if the testimony is how I really struggled with a sin, and through the help of God, his church, maybe even particular offices within the church (bishop, etc.) and finally got deliverance, that might be okay. It's especially dicey if I'm going to claim victory over something I believe others in the room are still "in sin" about.

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41 minutes ago, Fether said:

If I were to say the thread would become a debate on the topic rather than my question

So the question is how to go about testifying to a controversial matter when others in attendance are not living up to the matter being testified about. This matter cannot be named because it would become a subject of debate. So, if the matter is a subject of debate--if it is controversial--then would it be fair to say it is not settled doctrine? If it's not, should it be testified about? Members can correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that testimonies usually come with the understanding that the Holy Ghost has given the speaker a good measure of certainty about the matter. So, if I say, as an example, "I bear testimony that the consumption of coca cola is a compromise of the WoW, and I thank God for helping me overcome this habit," might others, who are not so convinced, take offense that I essentially invoked the authority of the Holy Ghost in offering my opinion that coca cola drinking is sinful? 

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3 hours ago, Fether said:

How do you testify of things that the person in front of you may not be living? Particularly when it is somewhat controversial.

Today both my wife and I found ourselves bearing testimony on a gospel topic that I know most of the people in earshot were not doing or following, many of which are good friends of ours. My wife was very nervous about the whole thing and didn’t want people to feel like we were judging them, but also didn’t want to remain silent on the topic. For me, my mindset was “I’m only backing what prophets have said and am going to let people think what they may”.

We both bore testimony, and it was only met with a man who was also aware of those in the room that are not living the principle “we can’t judge others on their decisions”

Ive always been if the philosophy of “if they are offended and don’t want to be friends with me cause I sustain the prophets, that is on them. I’m still ganna be inviting them over for games and dinner though cause they are awesome people.”

What do you do in these situations? When you have friends in the room that you don’t want to offend but know something needs to be said and a certain topic that they aren’t living? 

Since throughout sacred history the prophets of God have almost invariably made multitudes of mortal enemies (it seems to be an unavoidable element of the job description), why should any rank and file member of the Church think they can find some way to be forthright defenders of the truth and yet simultaneously never offend anyone? It was the Saviour himself who said:

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that love th father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that love th son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. (Matthew 10)

If the above is what can often be expected as a consequence of adherence to the gospel of Christ within the family, why should anyone think the sword of gospel truth will somehow produce less interrelational conflict outside of the family? And are you aware of the fact that the prophecies pertaining to the last days clearly indicate the Church is going to be torn apart by internal conflict prior to the Second Coming?

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Fether, I don't have much information but the little you shared. You mentioned that your wife "didn’t want to remain silent on the topic" and you talk about "something that needs to be said and a certain topic that they aren't living."

IMHO, if the testimony was shared with the intention of testifying of the greatness of that principle then I think it is fabulous.

HOWEVER,

If the testimony was shared because you know these brothers and sisters are not living that principle, then a little change of heart might be necessary. We were commanded to be our brother's keepers not the Gospel Gestapo.

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10 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

If the above is what can often be expected as a consequence of adherence to the gospel of Christ within the family, why should anyone think the sword of gospel truth will somehow produce less interrelational conflict outside of the family? And are you aware of the fact that the prophecies pertaining to the last days clearly indicate the Church is going to be torn apart by internal conflict prior to the Second Coming?

I would appreciate if you could post a source with those prophecies.  Could be interesting to read.

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A testimony is not a lecture.  It is not a sermon.  It is not an admonition.

We testify of Christ and the truth of His Gospel.  It is your own PERSONAL experience that led you to believe in Christ and His gospel.  Therefore, you need to stand there and testify of that truth from your experience, not as a lecture/sermon/admonition about what others do.  So, to hide things in your testimony for fear somebody might be offended, is skirting a false witness.  So, you either stand there and tell the truth boldly, or you don't stand.

But that's just me.

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We have a sister who always gives us a good show on fast Sunday.  She has testified that fat people need to follow the word of wisdom more.  She has testified that our young men shouldn't pee on trees.  She has testified that women who wear denim might as well be wearing jeans, if they're that set on not being modest.  She testifies often that hymnbooks are scripture, and the number of broken bindings in our building mean we need to do a better job of respecting scripture.  She'll also walk the halls and have a serious conversation with anyone not wearing shoes.  

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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18 hours ago, Fether said:

How do you testify of things that the person in front of you may not be living? Particularly when it is somewhat controversial.

Today both my wife and I found ourselves bearing testimony on a gospel topic that I know most of the people in earshot were not doing or following, many of which are good friends of ours. My wife was very nervous about the whole thing and didn’t want people to feel like we were judging them, but also didn’t want to remain silent on the topic. For me, my mindset was “I’m only backing what prophets have said and am going to let people think what they may”.

We both bore testimony, and it was only met with a man who was also aware of those in the room that are not living the principle “we can’t judge others on their decisions”

Ive always been if the philosophy of “if they are offended and don’t want to be friends with me cause I sustain the prophets, that is on them. I’m still ganna be inviting them over for games and dinner though cause they are awesome people.”

What do you do in these situations? When you have friends in the room that you don’t want to offend but know something needs to be said and a certain topic that they aren’t living? 

We are to testify according to the Holy Spirit and not a thing based on any particular or aggregate opinions from the internet - else it is us that requires repentance.  Feeling any better now?

Sometimes the best testimony is an example and sometimes (most of the time) I am not the best example.  So now, with my response, I am going to have to repent.

 

The Traveler

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23 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

We have a sister who always gives us a good show on fast Sunday.  She has testified that fat people need to follow the word of wisdom more.  She has testified that our young men shouldn't pee on trees.  She has testified that women who wear denim might as well be wearing jeans, if they're that set on not being modest.  She testifies often that hymnbooks are scripture, and the number of broken bindings in our building mean we need to do a better job of respecting scripture.  She'll also walk the halls and have a serious conversation with anyone not wearing shoes.  

 

We have a previous stake president, now the stake patriarch give an anti-Trump testimony so...

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Agreeing that Fast and Testimony meeting is not the time for preachamonies. 

Proper: testifying how Christ has changed your life.  If this involves you stopping a sin or gaining stronger understanding/faith in one of His commandments, then by all means include it.

Incorrect: "I think Sue over there really needs to stop sinning this way, so I'm going to get up there and preach how that sin is bad."

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