Forgiveness of ongoing hurt or unrepentant sin

[JohnsonJones]

A situation I've been pondering about recently...

A story to relate.  Many years ago there were three friends.  We'll name them Larry, Curly, and Moe.  Larry had a terrible grudge with Curly.  A girl that Larry had been dating broke up with Larry and started to date Curly.  Larry planned to kill Curly and did so in front of Moe and others.  He basically beat Curly very badly and later on Curly died of these injuries in the hospital.  Larry was sentenced to life in prison.

To this day, Larry refuses to admit guilt.  He has always stated he is innocent and played no hand in Curly's death. 

So, here's the dilemma that I have tried to figure out.  Moe has, in their mind, forgiven Larry.  They've tried to say they hold nothing against Larry, but they WANT Larry to pay for the crimes that he committed.

He would like Larry to simply admit that he did wrong, and that Larry should try to go through the repentance process which includes admission of guilt, asking for forgiveness, and trying to do what they can to repay what was lost.  Larry has always pleaded innocent.  Moe is very disturbed by this.  He feels he has forgiven Larry, he has visited Larry in prison, and even tried to help him in various prison costs and other areas.  However, he still very much wants Larry to admit guilt.  That Larry does not do this makes Moe WANT Larry to do it even more. 

Thus,  Moe feels like he has forgiven Larry, but he's not sure.

This is because Moe cannot forget what Larry did.  Instead of forgetting it completely, he wants Larry to admit what he did.  He is willing to see Larry as his friend still, and do what he can for him, but he cannot simply include the forget portion in forgiveness.  To do so before Larry has repented would be wrong and do a disservice to Curly's memory.  However, he states he has forgiven Larry, tells Larry he has forgiven him but feels he needs to pay the price for the crime, but he still loves Larry as a friend.

So, this would be Moe's question, has he forgiven Larry?

Then we add another complication to the story.  Larry was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  His son is also a member of the church.  Larry has been excommunicated.  I do not see him ever being rebaptized in this lifetime.

His son wishes to know what happens to the children born in the covenant.  Who will they be sealed to?  If their father is irreparably done and never going to be able to qualify for the Celestial glory, what happens to the sealing covenant?

Larry now falls in the boundaries of a Bishop and has both of these talking to that Bishop about this.  What type of things should the Bishop tell them?  Should he simply refer them back to their own wards, or how should the Bishop deal with these types of questions?

Of more direct relation, when faced with unrepentant individuals who will continue to do the sin or hurt you, when you forgive, how do you know if you've actually forgiven them?  Even if you try with all your heart, when the hurt continues, even if you say and try to act as if you've forgiven them, the hurt continues.  How do you know that in your heart you have truly forgiven them and when is it enough?

 

Just a pondering of mine.

[Jane_Doe]

Ok, you got two things going on here: 1) the question about forgiveness, and 2) the question about sealings.  I'll talk about forgiveness this post, and sealings the next.     With any wrong, there are at least three relationships involved: between the trespasser, the offended, and Christ:

Relationship 1 trespasser & Christ--- Only Christ can truly wipe away sins from a person, because He takes their sins upon Himself.  To do so, the trespasser must seek Christ's forgiveness, and go through that repentance process, which in can involve things like jail time (a lot of jail time in the case you described).  If the trespasser refuses to acknowledge their guilt and seek forgiveness, then they have to pay the eternal price themselves.

Relationship 2 trespasser & the offended--- I'm going to be blunt here: the offended person doesn't have the ability to wipe away sins.  He can never rob justice by giving trespasser gets a get-out-of-all-consquences card.  An offended person forgiving a trespasser doesn't mean the trespasser "gets away" with anything-- cause Christ is the one holding the ledger of wrongs, not the offended mortal.  Rather, when an offended person forgives another, the offended is letting go of the anger & hurt, and acknowledging that Christ is the holding the ledger.  We let go of those negative feelings, and let the ultimate avatar of justice (aka Christ) do His job.  Which brings us to, 

Relationship 3 offended & Christ-- when a person forgives another, they let go of that anger & hurt, letting Christ do His job.  In place of that anger & hurt, Christ feels each of us with His Healing, for He is also the ultimate avatar of healing.  He mends our broken bones, holds us while we cry, and then wipes away the tears.  By taking on the mantle of justice-keeper, He lets us move on with our lives, no longer burdened by that hurt and instead filled with joy.  This is between the offended & Christ and in NO way dependent on the trespasser (like whether or not he's repented).

(To be continued...)

Edited October 15, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[anatess2]

Here's my take:

1.)  Sealing - any person sealed to their family is independent of the sins of each individual family member.  So, in this case, the son is sealed to the family (this includes Larry's wife, Larry's siblings, Larry's parents, Larry's great grandparents and great great grandparents, etc. etc. all the way to Adam) but, if Christ deems Larry's covenant broken, then Larry loses his sealing to the family.  The family of Larry is connected to each other through their own covenants, so the righteous ones are sealed to the other righteous members of Larry's family but not to Larry.

2.) Forgiveness - Forgiveness is independent of repentance.  We need to forgive even if the other person doesn't say I'm sorry.  Therefore, requiring the other person to be repentant for one to be able to forgive is the same admonition Christ gave on his parables about the servant who did not forgive the other's debt because they haven't paid it.  We are to forgive 7x7.  Only Christ gets to choose to forgive depending on one's repentance.  Moe needs to forgive Larry.  Moe desiring for Larry to go though repentance would needs to be independent of forgiveness.  Moe should desire Larry to repent not so he can forgive but so that Larry can come closer to Christ.

 

[mirkwood]

@NeuroTypical has some good thoughts on this topic.

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Of more direct relation, when faced with unrepentant individuals who will continue to do the sin or hurt you, when you forgive, how do you know if you've actually forgiven them?  Even if you try with all your heart, when the hurt continues, even if you say and try to act as if you've forgiven them, the hurt continues.  How do you know that in your heart you have truly forgiven them and when is it enough?

When you can pray for them in love, and genuinely wish them the best.  That does not always involve you no longer hurting, but sometimes it does.  Nor does it always involve forgetting, especially when they're still a potential threat of future harm.

Repentance and forgiveness - they're nice when they both happen, but it's not critical.  Repentance is mainly for the sinner, not the sinned against.  Forgiveness is mainly for the injured party, not the sinner.  And for the love of pete - forgiveness does NOT mean being a door mat, or allowing more harm.  Forgiveness does NOT equal trust.   You have to forgive them - God commands it.  But they have to earn back the trust you have lost in them through their own behavior.  And you may find yourself in a situation where you've forgiven them but you'll never ever trust them again on this earth.  That's ok.  Save a seat for them in the celestial kingdom, because hopefully you both will make it there, and the matter will finally be settled.  

This is worth a read:

https://thirdhour.org/forums/topic/42581-i-think-i-want-a-divorce-from-my-in-laws/?tab=comments#comment-640642

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Guest]

When an unrighteous father breaks his covenants to the degree Larry has, then the wife and children flow upwards along the sealing line until a righteous link is found.  That is why we need to do our geneology and temple work for the dead.

When Christ was on the cross, there were thieves placed on either side of him.  One was repentant.  The other wasn't.  When the repentant one cried out to the Lord, Jesus didn't remove him from the cross.  But he promised him that he would dwell in Paradise.

Why on earth did Larry kill everyone's favorite stooge?  Everybody loves Curly.  But Moe is really bossy. Why didn't he kill Moe?   (trying to lighten the mood).

As far as forgiving: I've been struggling lately with the idea of forgiving someone and what forgiveness would look like in this case.  Here is what I came to terms with and felt comfort with:

The Lord says, when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.  This implies that one would have to have a level of strength to lift others up.  You have to be on a higher level to lift someone else up.  In spiritual matters, we can't push someone up ahead of us. 

I have forgiven this woman her trespass.  And I honestly wish her the best.  But the fact is that I'm a depressive.  I cannot handle negativity like hers.  So, while I'm happy to let go of any animosity or anger over her actions, I would end up killing myself (literally) if I had to deal with her in my life on a regular basis.  So, it's not that I'm holding a grudge.  I'm just trying to survive.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

This is worth a read:

https://thirdhour.org/forums/topic/42581-i-think-i-want-a-divorce-from-my-in-laws/?tab=comments#comment-640642

I think I missed that the first go around.  It was a good read.  I guess I came to the same conclusion in my post above.

[Traveler]

On 10/15/2018 at 10:27 AM, JohnsonJones said:

A situation I've been pondering about recently...

A story to relate.  Many years ago there were three friends.  We'll name them Larry, Curly, and Moe.  Larry had a terrible grudge with Curly.  A girl that Larry had been dating broke up with Larry and started to date Curly.  Larry planned to kill Curly and did so in front of Moe and others.  He basically beat Curly very badly and later on Curly died of these injuries in the hospital.  Larry was sentenced to life in prison.

To this day, Larry refuses to admit guilt.  He has always stated he is innocent and played no hand in Curly's death. 

So, here's the dilemma that I have tried to figure out.  Moe has, in their mind, forgiven Larry.  They've tried to say they hold nothing against Larry, but they WANT Larry to pay for the crimes that he committed.

He would like Larry to simply admit that he did wrong, and that Larry should try to go through the repentance process which includes admission of guilt, asking for forgiveness, and trying to do what they can to repay what was lost.  Larry has always pleaded innocent.  Moe is very disturbed by this.  He feels he has forgiven Larry, he has visited Larry in prison, and even tried to help him in various prison costs and other areas.  However, he still very much wants Larry to admit guilt.  That Larry does not do this makes Moe WANT Larry to do it even more. 

Thus,  Moe feels like he has forgiven Larry, but he's not sure.

This is because Moe cannot forget what Larry did.  Instead of forgetting it completely, he wants Larry to admit what he did.  He is willing to see Larry as his friend still, and do what he can for him, but he cannot simply include the forget portion in forgiveness.  To do so before Larry has repented would be wrong and do a disservice to Curly's memory.  However, he states he has forgiven Larry, tells Larry he has forgiven him but feels he needs to pay the price for the crime, but he still loves Larry as a friend.

So, this would be Moe's question, has he forgiven Larry?

Then we add another complication to the story.  Larry was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  His son is also a member of the church.  Larry has been excommunicated.  I do not see him ever being rebaptized in this lifetime.

His son wishes to know what happens to the children born in the covenant.  Who will they be sealed to?  If their father is irreparably done and never going to be able to qualify for the Celestial glory, what happens to the sealing covenant?

Larry now falls in the boundaries of a Bishop and has both of these talking to that Bishop about this.  What type of things should the Bishop tell them?  Should he simply refer them back to their own wards, or how should the Bishop deal with these types of questions?

Of more direct relation, when faced with unrepentant individuals who will continue to do the sin or hurt you, when you forgive, how do you know if you've actually forgiven them?  Even if you try with all your heart, when the hurt continues, even if you say and try to act as if you've forgiven them, the hurt continues.  How do you know that in your heart you have truly forgiven them and when is it enough?

 

Just a pondering of mine.

Another way to look at this is to ask - how much more must Jesus suffer for those sins before you will say enough to his pain and sorrow - that the sin has been forgiven in your heart?

 

The Traveler