BYU-Provo and tithes

[anatess2]

I was reading some complaints about tithe-paying parents who are upset that their kids didn't get accepted to BYU.  They were saying that it burns them to think that they're paying all this money for somebody else to take advantage of it.  I was wanting to just pop in and say... do you even understand the concept of tithes?  But I don't want to get in trouble anywhere else but lds.net.

But this got me thinking... we have a lot of families in our ward that have a hard time with tithing.  Could this be why these kids are not getting into BYU-Provo?  I didn't think that the tithing status of parents would affect the opportunities of children as children completely have zero control over their parents' righteousness.  But... maybe in BYU-Provo they do.   They all seem to get accepted just fine in BYU-Idaho, though.

Does anybody here know?

Edited October 17, 2018 by anatess2

[Traveler]

18 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I was reading some complaints about tithe-paying parents who are upset that their kids didn't get accepted to BYU.  They were saying that it burns them to think that they're paying all this money for somebody else to take advantage of it.  I was wanting to just pop in and say... do you even understand the concept of tithes?  But I don't want to get in trouble anywhere else but lds.net.

But this got me thinking... we have a lot of families in our ward that have a hard time with tithing.  Could this be why these kids are not getting into BYU-Provo?  I didn't think that the tithing status of parents would affect the opportunities of children as children completely have zero control over their parents' righteousness.  But... maybe in BYU-Provo they do.   They all seem to get accepted just fine in BYU-Idaho, though.

Does anybody here know?

I think too many parents think of their children as extensions of themselves rather than independent individuals with agency and freewill.  Children raised thinking they are privileged or better than others (especially because of their parents and especially because of what such parents can purchase with money) - are one of the worse possible problems of human societies.  I was taught this by my parents - that I thought were poor and needed my help to support the family until, while in college - I discovered otherwise.

BTW - Not that it makes any difference but I was raised in Provo, two blocks from the campus of BYU.  The neighborhood I grew up in is now overcome with BYU students - and I am not sure it is an improvement.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 17, 2018 by Traveler

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I think too many parents think of their children as extensions of themselves rather than independent individuals with agency and freewill.  Children raised thinking they are privileged or better than others (especially because of their parents and especially because of what such parents can purchase with money) - are one of the worse possible problems of human societies.  I was taught this by my parents - that I thought were poor and needed my help to support the family until, while in college - I discovered otherwise.

 

The Traveler

That's not a problem with these kids in my ward I'm talking about who didn't get accepted to BYU-Provo.  These kids worked hard - good SAT/ACT scores, good GPAs, college credit classes in high school, seminary graduates, eagle scouts or YW recognition, glowing letters of recommendation by their bishop... didn't get accepted to Provo.

Edited October 17, 2018 by anatess2

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

BTW - Not that it makes any difference but I was raised in Provo, two blocks from the campus of BYU.  The neighborhood I grew up in is now overcome with BYU students - and I am not sure it is an improvement.

 

The Traveler

We don't care about BYU students.  BYU-Provo provides very high standards of education.  That's what we care about.

If my son gets accepted to Provo (he graduates next year and plans to apply but would have to wait to start until after his mission), he's gonna be living in a property I'm eyeing in Springville.

Edited October 17, 2018 by anatess2

[Vort]

34 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Does anybody here know?

I DO NOT KNOW.

Just to make that clear. I don't know. I have no insight into the BYU admissions process.

That said: I don't believe it, not for a moment. I can't imagine that BYU Admissions Office has access to the tithing records of Church members. The very idea that an admissions office could go check up on the tithing status of the parents of potential students is so outrageous that I don't think it's worth serious consideration. I suppose it's possible, like the Illuminati are possible. But I don't buy it for a second.

[estradling75]

44 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Does anybody here know?

I do not know either...  But it sounds like a simple Supply and Demand issue...

Lots of kids want to go to BYU Provo (for various reasons) but BYU Provo only has so much capacity.  As is normal when the demand out strips the supply the cost increases.  In this case the cost is higher standard for admittance.  Sadly it is very common when a parent finds out that "Little Johnny" just is not good enough to blame anything and everything other then themselves and their kid.

BYU Idaho is an overflow/backup school for BYU Provo... Thus it does not have the same Supply and Demand pressure and is easier to get into.

 

 

[Traveler]

15 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

We don't care about BYU students.  BYU-Provo provides very high standards of education.  That's what we care about.

If my son gets accepted to Provo (he graduates next year and plans to apply but would have to wait to start until after his mission), he's gonna be living in a property I'm eyeing in Springville.

Just for information - I have some apartments in Provo within easy walking distance of the BYU campus.  I have dealt with the BYU student housing administration.  I believe I can say with authority that there are bureaucracies at BYU that have nothing to do with the "restoration" or principles of the gospel and that the housing authority have never helped any of my tenets - ever - I can understand them giving me a hassle but not my tenets.  If you are eyeing property in Springville - you son may have a hassle with the bureaucracy that you will find frustrating but if he plans on having BYU roommates you are in for some surprises and I can say (with some authority) you will ruin the friends of your son (trying to be his roommate) experience at BYU.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

4 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I do not know either...  But it sounds like a simple Supply and Demand issue...

Lots of kids want to go to BYU Provo (for various reasons) but BYU Provo only has so much capacity.  As is normal when the demand out strips the supply the cost increases.  In this case the cost is higher standard for admittance.  Sadly it is very common when a parent finds out that "Little Johnny" just is not good enough to blame anything and everything other then themselves and their kid.

BYU Idaho is an overflow/backup school for BYU Provo... Thus it does not have the same Supply and Demand pressure and is easier to get into.

 

 

I actually believe that admission will consider other options for the applicant - and if BYU Idaho is an option (major or study interest) - they will not be accepted - regardless of grades, endorsements or anything else (except or including desire to play sports at the college level).

 

The Traveler

[estradling75]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I actually believe that admission will consider other options for the applicant - and if BYU Idaho is an option (major or study interest) - they will not be accepted - regardless of grades, endorsements or anything else (except or including desire to play sports at the college level).

And how is that not having a higher/tougher standard for admittance?  'Oh you do not need to come here... so we are not going let you come here'

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

I was reading some complaints about tithe-paying parents who are upset that their kids didn't get accepted to BYU.  They were saying that it burns them to think that they're paying all this money for somebody else to take advantage of it.  I was wanting to just pop in and say... do you even understand the concept of tithes?  But I don't want to get in trouble anywhere else but lds.net.

But this got me thinking... we have a lot of families in our ward that have a hard time with tithing.  Could this be why these kids are not getting into BYU-Provo?  I didn't think that the tithing status of parents would affect the opportunities of children as children completely have zero control over their parents' righteousness.  But... maybe in BYU-Provo they do.   They all seem to get accepted just fine in BYU-Idaho, though.

Does anybody here know?

It has nothing to do with whether parents are full tithe payers or not.

IT DOES depend a little on whether one has an ecclesiastical endorsement (and this one is pretty black and white).  That implies the individual's worthiness (which would probably include tithes) matters a bit.

The bigger difficulty with BYU is how many who want to go there vs. how many spaces they have available.

Let's say you have a group composed of 15 million people.  You have a cruise ship that you bought and think...hey...we can take cruises.  It was bought with the money from that 15 million member group.  Of those 15 million you have a mere 1 million that think this cruise ship is pretty cool.  Of that 1 million, only about 100K of them want to get on the cruise ship, or at least their children do.

Your cruise ship is MASSIVE.  It's one of the biggest ones out there, however, that said, you can only fit around 7K on that cruise ship or accept that many to board it on your cruise.  That means only around 7% of those applying will actually get to go on your cruise.  You can extend it onwards for four or five cruises before you have to go into port for extensive repairs which could take a lot of time, but even then, with the maximum capacity and allowing a little more than you should, only 35K are going to ever get on it.

It's more about numbers rather than choosing about whether someone has or does not have parents who are temple worthy members.

In my opinion, at least.

Edited October 17, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[Traveler]

54 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And how is that not having a higher/tougher standard for admittance?  'Oh you do not need to come here... so we are not going let you come here'

Please do not think that I agree with the admissions.  When I attended BYU there were less than 2 million members and all members in good standing were admitted.  BYU has grown since those days but so has the church by much more.  I personally do not think even one good members should be forced to attend the University of Utah or Utah Valley University or any other corrupt evil gentile university.  But then - even when I was attending BYU - I had professors that were so bad - I did not think it worthwhile to attend their class - but alas many useless classes were required and there was no way out.  I also did not have much respect for the honor code.  I was called before the honor committee three times - once because of mistaken identity and twice over matters that have nothing to do with being a good member. 

For the sake of understanding - I will explain.  One was for putting up a sign at an intersection (late at night) at a stop light near Heritage Halls.  The sign said "Cattle Crossing".  Apparently someone thought that humor is a violation of honor.  The second was started when some co-eds filled a basement entrance to my friend's apartment with old used tin cans.  I took the same cans and rigged up a system for the entrance to the dorm of the young ladies that owned the cans so that the cans would be returned in kind.  But the young ladies heard night noises and called campus security.  When security showed up and the door to the dorm was opened - all the cans fell on the security instead of the young ladies to which the cans belonged.  Despite Studio C - BYU is not known for humor.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 17, 2018 by Traveler

[Traveler]

47 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

It has nothing to do with whether parents are full tithe payers or not.

IT DOES depend a little on whether one has an ecclesiastical endorsement (and this one is pretty black and white).  That implies the individual's worthiness (which would probably include tithes) matters a bit.

The bigger difficulty with BYU is how many who want to go there vs. how many spaces they have available.

Let's say you have a group composed of 15 million people.  You have a cruise ship that you bought and think...hey...we can take cruises.  It was bought with the money from that 15 million member group.  Of those 15 million you have a mere 1 million that think this cruise ship is pretty cool.  Of that 1 million, only about 100K of them want to get on the cruise ship, or at least their children do.

Your cruise ship is MASSIVE.  It's one of the biggest ones out there, however, that said, you can only fit around 7K on that cruise ship or accept that many to board it on your cruise.  That means only around 7% of those applying will actually get to go on your cruise.  You can extend it onwards for four or five cruises before you have to go into port for extensive repairs which could take a lot of time, but even then, with the maximum capacity and allowing a little more than you should, only 35K are going to ever get on it.

It's more about numbers rather than choosing about whether someone has or does not have parents who are temple worthy members.

In my opinion, at least.

Your analogy is good - except you left out the part that the ship and the cruise is mostly funded by those that will never even see the ship.

 

The Traveler

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Please do not think that I agree with the admissions.  When I attended BYU there were less than 2 million members and all members in good standing were admitted.  BYU has grown since those days but so has the church by much more.  I personally do not think even one good members should be forced to attend the University of Utah or Utah Valley University or any other corrupt evil gentile university.  But then - even when I was attending BYU - I had professors that were so bad - I did not think it worthwhile to attend their class - but alas many unless classes were required and there was no way out.  I also did not have much respect for the honor code.  I was called before the honor committee three times - once because of mistaken identity and twice over matters that have nothing to do with being a good member. 

For the sake of understanding - I will explain.  One was for putting up a sign at an intersection (late at night) at a stop light near Heritage Halls.  The sign said "Cattle Crossing".  Apparently someone thought that humor is a violation of honor.  The second was started when some co-eds filled a basement entrance to my friend's apartment with old used tin cans.  I took the same cans and rigged up a system for the entrance to the dorm of the young ladies that owned the cans so that the cans would be returned in kind.  But the young ladies heard night noises and called campus security.  When security showed up and the door to the dorm was opened - all the cans fell on the security instead of the young ladies to which the cans belonged.  Despite Studio C - BYU is not known for humor.

Traveler do the math... If say 500,000 new students want to attend this year and they only have room to take 5,000... All the desires and well wishes in the world is not going to enable them to take 500,000.  That is 495,000 rejected students plain and simple.  They have to go elsewhere.  You of all people should know that no one can provide more then they have the means to do so.

 

[Vort]

41 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Your analogy is good - except you left out the part that the ship and the cruise is mostly funded by those that will never even see the ship.

No, this is incorrect. The cruise is funded by the sponsoring organization.

"Our" tithing is not ours at all. It is God's. It is merely our privilege to pay tithing and receive the blessings, spiritual and otherwise, that come from that law. The disposition of the tithes gathered is not our concern or, frankly, our business. Section 120 provides for those decision-makers, and does not include "tithe-paying Saints" among them.

I can fully understand Saints that feel ownership of BYU and some kind of inheritance right to send their children there. But that's not how it works. My understanding and even sympathy doesn't change the fact that the tithes are the Lord's money to do with as he (or as his appointed leaders) see fit.

[Traveler]

40 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Traveler do the math... If say 500,000 new students want to attend this year and they only have room to take 5,000... All the desires and well wishes in the world is not going to enable them to take 500,000.  That is 495,000 rejected students plain and simple.  They have to go elsewhere.  You of all people should know that no one can provide more then they have the means to do so.

 

I do not believe that those accepted at BYU are divinely called or specified through revelation.  I think there are people that make this determination and that it is possible that the spirit of G-d is not the determining factor.  I do not think the resources of the church are so that education is impossible - rather I believe we are in a new era.  It appears to me that building temples has become a greater priority than building Universities.   

I have often wondered - wondered because I met my wife at BYU.  I cannot imagine  how we could have otherwise found each other.  In my generation it would seem that perhaps as much as 80% of the strong family foundations throughout the church had connections through BYU.  I am quite certain that is no one is better for me than has been my beloved wife.  None of our children have attended BYU and thus none found their spouses as my wife and I.  Their struggles have been different enough that I am not certain if it is the matter of not meeting at BYU or other factors in our society.  But I believe that the temples are more important than universities.  And that we should be more engaged in preparing our children to attend the temple than to attend BYU or any other university.

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

I have often wondered whether it would be appropriate for the Church to expand the BYU system by opening various campuses around the US and the world. I strongly suspect such a thing would be financially unsustainable. It's evident that the Church leadership has mixed feelings about being in the education business, and there is a strong reluctance to expand traditional educational institutions and opportunities. Personally, I'd love to see BYU-LA, BYU-Independence, BYU-São Paulo, BYU-Paris, etc. But I'm highly dubious any such thing can or will happen, and I bet it wouldn't go according to plan even if they tried it.

BYU-I has been experimenting for years, and with pretty good success (so I've been told), with a distance learning model. How that shakes out as far as college degrees and employment goes, only time will tell.

[estradling75]

12 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I do not believe that those accepted at BYU are divinely called or specified through revelation.

Who here made that claim?

13 minutes ago, Traveler said:

  I think there are people that make this determination and that it is possible that the spirit of G-d is not the determining factor.

Wow talk about an unrighteous judgement...  The people making that determination have been given the stewardship and the authority to do so.  Like all of us they are going to be held accountable for their actions and discharge of their stewardship.  Maybe they are seeking the spirit that they are entitled to for that stewardship... maybe they are not...  But to throw out such an accusation is unbecoming of anyone claiming to be Christian. 

[anatess2]

38 minutes ago, Vort said:

I have often wondered whether it would be appropriate for the Church to expand the BYU system by opening various campuses around the US and the world. I strongly suspect such a thing would be financially unsustainable. It's evident that the Church leadership has mixed feelings about being in the education business, and there is a strong reluctance to expand traditional educational institutions and opportunities. Personally, I'd love to see BYU-LA, BYU-Independence, BYU-São Paulo, BYU-Paris, etc. But I'm highly dubious any such thing can or will happen, and I bet it wouldn't go according to plan even if they tried it.

BYU-I has been experimenting for years, and with pretty good success (so I've been told), with a distance learning model. How that shakes out as far as college degrees and employment goes, only time will tell.

The LDS can create a school system much like the Catholics do - all community-started and funded - especially in places with large LDS population.  It would be a private institution owned by an LDS group and affiliated with the Church as far as oversight goes.  These schools would not need to use tithes.  I believe it is doable especially with the number of LDS children who do not avail of the public school system.  A private LDS college much like Notre Dame for the Catholics is also doable with the help of benefactors.  South Virginia University is such a college with Marriott as the benefactor.  I'm not sure if the Church discourages LDS schools or if none of them crop up due to cultural reasons.  Places like the Philippines would jump at the chance at opening an LDS K-12 school instead of sending their kids to the Catholic School next-door!

[Traveler]

23 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Who here made that claim?

Wow talk about an unrighteous judgement...  The people making that determination have been given the stewardship and the authority to do so.  Like all of us they are going to be held accountable for their actions and discharge of their stewardship.  Maybe they are seeking the spirit that they are entitled to for that stewardship... maybe they are not...  But to throw out such an accusation is unbecoming of anyone claiming to be Christian. 

There is a difference between my chosen profession (line of work) - for which I am paid in $$$$$ and my church callings which require a spiritual connection and does not pay much at all in $$$$.  I was attempting to point out that being employed at BYU is different than serving in a calling and that we should not demand or expect what anyone does for employment to be handled as we would expect a spiritual calling - and that BYU is some exception.  I might also add - being employed by the church (since I personally know several individuals employed by the church).  

My point is that if someone is going to base their testimony of the church on individuals employed by the church (specifically not callings which we could talk about but are not in this thread) - I will personally be concerned with such testimonies - more so than the sometimes incompetent employees that such testimonies are based upon.

 

The Traveler

[dahlia]

Do people think that tithing only goes to the Church schools? While I'm happy to support these schools, I also know that my tithing supports Helping Hands, the water projects, the farms and food projects, pays to build temples and keep the lights on at existing temples - what is the problem? So your kid didn't get into a Church school. S/he'll live. And depending on what the kids wants to do in life, there are better educational choices elsewhere.

I've been a member long enough to learn that having gone to BYU-wherever is no guarantee  that the person will stay in the Church or even do a mission. So there's that. When I learn somebody's going to BYU, I always wonder, 'Didn't you want something different? You're 18 and have lived in Utah or Idaho your whole life - don't you want to see what the rest of the world is like?' 

[Pressing Forward]

BYU Provo acceptance rate is ~50%.    Like all Universities, high SAT/ACT scores and high Gpa’s do not guarantee admission, neither does being a full tithe payer.   My daughter did the ACT prep class last summer at the Y, that week was enough to let her know she has no desire to go there.   My family has a history of attending the Y, not myself, I attended CSUN and BSU.

     BYU is as bad as the rest when it comes to liberalism and whacky professors.   Oh, it does not allow smoking or drinking on campus though, or growing of beards.......my oldest is attending BSU and has a beard, and if I’m lucky I’ll never write another check to BYU, as my daughter wants to go to BSU now......except for occasional mention of BYU-H....  

TCU was where I hoped my son would have chosen to go to school, I liked their Campus, and their values.

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Pressing Forward said:

BYU is as bad as the rest when it comes to liberalism and whacky professors.

Not even close. BYU has its problems, and the cancer of leftism hasn't skipped BYU altogether. But spend a week at UW or Eastern or Central or Western Washington Universities or any PAC-12 school or Penn State or, frankly, pretty much any major university not named BYU. Then go spend a week in Provo. The difference is night to day. I don't see how this can even reasonably be debated.

[Pressing Forward]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

Not even close. BYU has its problems, and the cancer of leftism hasn't skipped BYU altogether. But spend a week at UW or Eastern or Central or Western Washington Universities or any PAC-12 school or Penn State or, frankly, pretty much any major university not named BYU. Then go spend a week in Provo. The difference is night to day. I don't see how this can even reasonably be debated.

Ha!   Well I might stand corrected when it comes to UW, but who wants to be a Huskie?   We’ve toured  TCU,  UT-Austin(boy spent a week there when selected for Boys State....ewwww might be worse than Seattle) Florida State,  RIT(wife’s school) as well as BSU, BYU-P and H.   Those afore mentioned schools, except UT, all had the same feel, of course you get the modesty is hottestie Pepsi is a sin environment at the Y.     Must admit my finances wouldn’t let us tour more.       Sorry, just because the Y is a church school doesn’t make it great.    It is a good school,  and I know people who love it and disliked it, and I currently have two nieces and a nephew attending Provo.......sometimes their Dad even questions some of the stuff they say they are taught, and he’s an all is well kind of guy.

[dahlia]

5 hours ago, Pressing Forward said:

Ha!   Well I might stand corrected when it comes to UW, but who wants to be a Huskie? 

Whoa - I'm a Huskie!  PhD 2007. 

Of course, the degrees that really count are the 2 I have from Michigan. Go Blue! 

[Guest]

On 10/17/2018 at 10:49 AM, anatess2 said:

I was reading some complaints about tithe-paying parents who are upset that their kids didn't get accepted to BYU.  They were saying that it burns them to think that they're paying all this money for somebody else to take advantage of it.  I was wanting to just pop in and say... do you even understand the concept of tithes?  But I don't want to get in trouble anywhere else but lds.net.

But this got me thinking... we have a lot of families in our ward that have a hard time with tithing.  Could this be why these kids are not getting into BYU-Provo?  I didn't think that the tithing status of parents would affect the opportunities of children as children completely have zero control over their parents' righteousness.  But... maybe in BYU-Provo they do.   They all seem to get accepted just fine in BYU-Idaho, though.

Does anybody here know?

The insinuation is inconsistent.  They're both Church owned schools.  Why would they care about tithing faithfulness for one school and not the other?

What I do know is that the academic standards of admission for Provo are higher than for Idaho.  This is because Provo is meant for people who have a greater potential to continue into advanced degrees.

The primary thrust of turning Rick's College into BYU-Idaho was so that more students (even those with slightly less stellar academic credentials) could still have the benefit of a religion-centered university-level education.