Why does Jesus have to die in LDS theology?


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Hi! Greetings from a non-mormon newbie

 

In LDS thought, why does Jesus have to die?

I know the standard thinking in the Christianity I'm familiar with, that Jesus death was the only way that we could get eternal life, that God could forgive our sins.

But who set up that system?

 

 

Edited by Dan_473
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Welcome, @Dan_473!  The simple answer is that God set up the system - but that could be misleading without understanding the whole of what we call the Plan of Salvation.  It's a lot to cover, but the pages linked here give a really good intro, so I recommend you try that and then ask us whatever questions it brings up. :)

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1 hour ago, Dan_473 said:

Hi! Greetings from a non-mormon newbie

 

In LDS thought, why does Jesus have to die?

I know the standard thinking in the Christianity I'm familiar with, that Jesus death was the only way that we could get eternal life, that God could forgive our sins.

But who set up that system?

 

 

The Latter-day Saint theology is the same as Christian theology. He died so we could have salvation

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27 minutes ago, Dan_473 said:

Like maybe one of the things I'm asking is,

Does Heavenly Father need a sacrifice in order to forgive us? I can forgive other people without a sacrifice, at least I think I can... So what is the situation?

While one could spend an entire lifetime reading about the Atonement of Jesus Christ, I think the text at the top of this link (before all the scriptures) explains it pretty well - at least as a starting point.  Specifically:

Quote

The only way for us to be saved is for someone else to rescue us. We need someone who can satisfy the demands of justice—standing in our place to assume the burden of the Fall and to pay the price for our sins. Jesus Christ has always been the only one capable of making such a sacrifice.

...

Only He could redeem us from our sins. God the Father gave Him this power (see Helaman 5:11). The Savior was able to receive this power and carry out the Atonement because He kept Himself free from sin: “He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them” (D&C 20:22). Having lived a perfect, sinless life, He was free from the demands of justice. Because He had the power of redemption and because He had no debt to justice, he could pay the debt for those who repent.

For God to just forgive, without justice being served, would make him an unjust God.  The Atonement of Jesus Christ allows both justice and mercy to exist and have play in our lives - and if we turn to Christ, then both are positive elements of our lives.  The scriptures teach that God is both just and merciful, and it is the Atonement of Jesus Christ that makes this possible.

Edited by zil
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@zil is alluding to the “penal substitution” paradigm—the idea that *someone* had to pay the price for all those sins we have committed, and that Jesus did so and, in effect, becomes our new master or owner while perfectly reconciling the principles of justice and mercy.  The paradigm is very popular in LDS thought, having been articulated in an influential sermon entitled “The Mediator” by the late LDS leader Boyd K. Packer.  (See the text at https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/04/the-mediator?lang=eng).  

That said, penal substitution is not the only LDS approach to what the Atonement is, and why it was necessary; and to my mind—while it’s a great starting point—it is incomplete.  I think most Latter-day Saints would agree that don’t just exist to be “forgiven”; we exist to be changed.  There is some ineffable quality about who Jesus was, what He did and what He suffered, that inspires us to change and that somehow gives Him power to connect with us and perfect us in a way He otherwise could not have done.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I think in some ways there are things we need to sacrifice to forgive someone.  Especially if that thing is HUGE.  Sometimes we want to hold onto the bitterness and the anger because we feel that it is justified.  But we have to let go or sacrifice those things within us in order to forgive someone.  

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9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The paradigm is very popular in LDS thought, having been articulated in an influential sermon entitled “The Mediator” by the late LDS leader Boyd K. Packer.

To be fair, it's not just @zil and Elder Packer. The scriptures present this "substitution paradigm" as well, engaging the image of the scapegoat.

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Thanks for all the answers so far everyone!

So if I may ask a follow-up question, did Jesus need to suffer and die or would it have been enough just to die? Or along those same lines, if he had been on the cross only half the time, say 3 hours instead of 6, could he have redeemed only half as many people?

 

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18 minutes ago, Dan_473 said:

Or along those same lines, if he had been on the cross only half the time, say 3 hours instead of 6, could he have redeemed only half as many people?

First, we're in the realm of speculation now.  No one fully understands the technical details of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.  That said, a few thoughts:

  • It's kinda irrelevant - the Lord paid the price for all sin, and would not have stopped short - if he had, I suspect it would have nullified the entire event.
  • I personally believe Christ overcame not only each individual instance of sin ever committed, but the very concept of sin.
18 minutes ago, Dan_473 said:

did Jesus need to suffer and die or would it have been enough just to die?

Apparently, he needed to suffer.  A few scriptures:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/9?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/34?lang=eng

...which demonstrate that the Atonement must be infinite and eternal - thus, covering all potential sin - it could not be less than infinite and eternal because the consequences of sin are infinite and eternal.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/7.11-13?lang=eng#p10

...through the suffering of the Atonement, Christ knows, not just through the Spirit, but through his experience, how to succor his people.  Please follow the footnotes in these verses.

And a couple about Christ mediating for us:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/38.4?lang=eng#p3

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/45.3-5?lang=eng#p2

Edited by zil
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1 hour ago, Dan_473 said:

So if I may ask a follow-up question, did Jesus need to suffer and die or would it have been enough just to die? Or along those same lines, if he had been on the cross only half the time, say 3 hours instead of 6, could he have redeemed only half as many people?

You're asking about the mechanics of reality. The short answer is that we don't know. The longer answer is that we don't know, and it's usually a waste of time (or worse) even to ask such mechanical questions--potentially worse, because it distracts us from what we should be paying attention to.

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

You're asking about the mechanics of reality. The short answer is that we don't know. The longer answer is that we don't know, and it's usually a waste of time (or worse) even to ask such mechanical questions--potentially worse, because it distracts us from what we should be paying attention to.

It just seemed strange to me that God would set up a system which involved so much suffering, which is sounds like is also unavailable.

If that's just the way it is, then I guess no sense in pursuing it. But it seemed like something worth exploring.

 

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19 minutes ago, Dan_473 said:

It just seemed strange to me that God would set up a system which involved so much suffering, which is sounds like is also unavailable.

If that's just the way it is, then I guess no sense in pursuing it. But it seemed like something worth exploring.

Hi Dan,

I'm a person who has suffered in life, due to the sins of another- let's call him Bob.  Bob was child molester.  His actions caused decades of suffering for me, to a depth of which I'd rather not describe here.  Now, like most other sins, Bob's sins (while uber-vile) can be washed clean with Christ's atonement.  But how?  I mean, it's not like you (Dan) can wave a magic wand and just say "bye bye owey, be all better now!".  It doesn't work like that-- we can't just pretend Bob's actions didn't have any consequences-- they cause major serious suffering to a lot of people, and we can't pretend like that doesn't matter.  And to be frank, Dan you can't forgive Bob's actions because Bob didn't hurt you.  You haven't felt the pain I have.  Neither can you can't make my pain go away.  You don't know what it's like.  You haven't felt it. 

Christ has.  Christ has felt my pain- every single tear I've shed, Christ too has felt.  He, the one without any sin, went through every bit of pain I felt.  He knows exactly where I have been.  He knows exactly the thing to do to relate to me, and to help me heal.  And He knows personally the extent of Bob's crimes.  Because He's been there, and He's felt it, He can judge Bob the way you (Dan) can't.  He is the all knowing all righteous judge & all powerful healer, because He's been there and He's felt it.

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44 minutes ago, Dan_473 said:

It just seemed strange to me that God would set up a system which involved so much suffering, which is sounds like is also unavailable. 

If that's just the way it is, then I guess no sense in pursuing it. But it seemed like something worth exploring.

I expect it seems strange because you need to first understand the reason for the plan to start with.  Thus far, you've focused primarily on Christ and his Atonement.  But there's also our pre-mortal existence, why we needed (and chose to have) a mortal existence, and where we are headed after this existence.

Isolate a portion of the plan, and it seems strange.  The whole plan together makes perfect sense, and is the only thing I have ever heard which logically explains things like why we are the way we are (our freedom to choose, our sins and weaknesses, our strengths and aspirations), why God allows us to do the things we do, and how He will make it right in the end, after we have learned what we will learn, and chosen what we will choose.

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59 minutes ago, Dan_473 said:

It just seemed strange to me that God would set up a system which involved so much suffering, which is sounds like is also unavailable.

If that's just the way it is, then I guess no sense in pursuing it. But it seemed like something worth exploring.

Our earthly life enjoys creating "Happily Ever After" scenarios, or illusions. This is why (you're not alone) people will feel that "it just seems strange to me" [insert whatever experience doesn't make sense] that God would set up, or establish. And if something doesn't make sense, then often the personal result is -- it must not be true. It is similar thought when some say, "If there is a God why is there so much evil"? The question assumes, creates an illusion, if evil exists God doesn't exist. It is strange to some that evils exists if there is a God who is absolutely good.

This is definitely something worth exploring; however, part of the issue here is if the mechanics were revealed to a person (via revelation), it wouldn't be this individuals privilege to reveal such on a public forum, nor individual in person. When God reveals a secret that has not been reveled through his prophet we keep this sacred communication private. So those who may know the mechanics which you are exploring will not reveal such until the Lord reveals such through his prophets.

A truth is what it is, it is never changing, so in a sense its "the way it is"; however, pursuing such is not a waste (nor without sense).

 

Edited by Anddenex
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3 hours ago, Dan_473 said:

It just seemed strange to me that God would set up a system which involved so much suffering, which is sounds like is also unavailable.

Does it seems strange to you that God sets up a system where innocent children suffer unspeakably at the hands of evil men and women?

Does it seems strange to you that God sets up a system where the wicked prosper while the righteous dwindle?

Does it seems strange to you that God sets up a system where Satan reigns and glories in his perversions, his followers exulting in their power?

Earth life is what it is. The gospel teaches us that there is a reality that transcends this mortal sphere, and that furthermore that reality is more durable and reliable than this shadow puppet show we live. Our task here is to determine which voice we follow: Life or death. We are free to choose.

How God does what he does is, for the most part, not ours to know. We do not know why or how the atonement of Jesus Christ works, except what the scriptures teach us. Everything else is inference on our part. So it seems reasonable to me not to worry too much about why or how some gospel principle works, only that it works. We don't even have any sort of good understand why or how we even exist on the earth; our best recourse is to say, "Well, here we are" and go from there. To my way of thinking, that seems a much more profitable way to approach the atonement of our Savior.

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On 10/20/2018 at 9:04 PM, Dan_473 said:

It just seemed strange to me that God would set up a system which involved so much suffering, which is sounds like is also unavailable.

If that's just the way it is, then I guess no sense in pursuing it. But it seemed like something worth exploring.

 

Hi Dan, in my opinion, Christ's mortal suffering is nothing compared to the suffering he went through when he was completely separated from the Father (spiritual death, "Father, why have you abandoned me?").  His mortal suffering shows us that our suffering here on earth, no matter how great (as he suffered greatly), is temporary and that the eternal separation of the Father (spiritual death) is the greatest suffering.

What makes the Atonement of Christ more meaningful, in my opinion, is the restored teaching only found in the LDS Church that our spirits are eternal.  Therefore, God did not create us from nothing so we would suffer (Adam and Eve having caused our downfall).  Rather, God saw our spirits and loved us so he created spiritual bodies for us that we may become like He is - the fullness of Joy.  The Plan of Salvation, therefore, is that plan where our spirits can have the opportunity to change to be like God.

With that foundation, this scripture is my favorite that touches on the Atonement of Christ:  https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2?lang=eng

 

 

 

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Without death Christ would not have been able to resurrect and break the bands of death thus all of mankind would had had to remain eternally in the spirit world.

 

It also allowed Him to visit the spirit world see D&C 138.

 

I also feel that the penal substitution theory of the atonement is unsatisfactory.

The atonement is infinite, men and our sins are finite. 

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8 hours ago, mikbone said:

men and our sins are finite.  

Mortality is finite, but individuals are not.  It may take a finite amount of time to commit any given sin, but the consequences are eternal.

But overcoming sin was only one of the purposes of Christ's Atonement.

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On 10/20/2018 at 8:48 AM, Dan_473 said:

Like maybe one of the things I'm asking is,

Does Heavenly Father need a sacrifice in order to forgive us? I can forgive other people without a sacrifice, at least I think I can... So what is the situation?

 

It's not about forgiving others, although that's important.  it's about atoning for our sins.  We could atone for our own sins, pay for them ourselves, but the pain and sorrow are too great for us to endure.   Christ took that burden from us, and atoned for our sins, so we wouldn't have to endure the pain of atonement. And I don't even think of it as physical pain, but the emotional and spiritual toll.  We, as imperfect beings, are simply incapable of doing it ourselves.  Christ was perfect and as such, he alone could do it.

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On 10/20/2018 at 10:03 AM, Dan_473 said:

In LDS thought, why does Jesus have to die? . . . did Jesus need to suffer and die or would it have been enough just to die?

Technically, the only reason Jesus needed to die, was so that He could resurrect himself, and thus have power to resurrect all mankind.  His death is at best 1/3 of His atoning sacrifice.  He suffered for our sins and afflictions, he died, then he was resurrected the third day.  In the theology of the Restored gospel, the suffering for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane is often treated with greater significance than the death on the cross; however, His death and then resurrection were both indispensable aspects to His atonement as a whole.  Without the resurrection, the rest of his sacrifice is essentially useless; this can equally be said of each of the three parts of the atonement; they are all individually requisite.

On 10/20/2018 at 11:46 AM, Dan_473 said:

Is this the only way that God could have forgiven our sins?

The Atonement of Jesus Christ was and is the only way for God to be able to forgive our sins.

On 10/20/2018 at 11:48 AM, Dan_473 said:

Does Heavenly Father need a sacrifice in order to forgive us? I can forgive other people without a sacrifice, at least I think I can... So what is the situation?

Your ability to forgive is limited to yourself.  You cannot forgive someone for their actions against another person, only Jesus Christ is capable of doing that.  For example:  If someone were to assault your child, you can forgive them for any of their actions that directly affect you as the child's parent; your child can forgive them for the actual assault, Christ can forgive them for every temporal and spiritual repercussion that results from their action, regardless of whether you choose to or not.  No human is capable of that.

At the end of the day there is truly only one spiritual punishment for sin, and that is to be separated from God.  Christ suffered that punishment despite the fact that he did not deserve it, he experienced true hell, beyond what most will ever experience.  He did this in order to (in some way we do not fully understand) avail us of the requirement to experience this punishment.  God, our Father, would not have permitted His Son to voluntarily take upon Himself this punishment if it were not the only possible way, or if there was any other option that required less.

Edited by person0
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