Faith in Christ and Self-Reliance


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I've been taking another self-reliance course (one of the 12-week courses recently published by the Church).  This one was "Personal Finance".  In the first lesson, we were asked the question:

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How does faith in Jesus Christ encourage us to become self-reliant?

We were asked to ponder it rather than discuss it. But a thought came to me.  Faith in Christ means that we are willing to become completely dependent on him.  That is paradoxical with the notion of self-reliance being faith based.  What's up with that?

I brought up the topic to my family during a family council.  The response was unanimously the same from each of them:

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If we have faith in Jesus Christ, we will want to serve others.  We cannot serve others from a position of weakness ourselves.  We must be strong enough to lift others up.

While I understood the concept and accepted that it held some truth, something about this didn't seem to ring true to me.  It didn't really answer the question.  My family wondered what the "correct answer" was --- as if I had an answer in mind already.  I had to inform them that I really had no idea.  And I was having trouble figuring it out myself.

During our class this week, something else was said.  Just a word or two different that changed the course of my thoughts on the matter.

What is self-reliance?  It means you can rely on yourself.  Most people think it is "self-sufficiency" or "independent" which aren't necessarily the same thing.  Then I got to pondering all these concepts around the concept of faith.  Here's what I came up with.  And I'd invite people to weigh in on it to see if it rings true.

*********************************************

There really is no such thing as completely capable within oneself.  Even in financial matters, one does not make money in a vacuum.  I run my own business.  And I'm getting more and more successful. But I'm still dependent upon my clients, the economy, society at large, the government, etc.  While it is certainly not the same thing as being on the dole and completely dependent upon the government, I'm still dependent in a manner.

Faith in the Lord changes only one thing. On whom are we dependent?  If I have true faith in the Lord, it is not clients or government or society that makes or breaks my financial success.  It is the Lord.  No matter what door is closed by man, the Lord can open another.  That is the way of things.  By having faith in the Lord for all things, I do His will, rather than the will of men.  And I am successful.  Yes, one could argue that for the Lord to bless me in business, He expects me to do the will of the customer.  That is true.  This reality doesn't change.  But the perspective does.  I do it because the Lord wants me to do certain things that will serve other men (service of your fellow beings).  I don't serve them because it is somehow my responsibility to satisfy their whims and their lusts or egos.  I do it because I'm serving my fellow man.  And I'm encouraged to do the best job I can because I'm doing it in the name of the Lord.

I do the will of the Lord and the Lord blesses me.  This is dependable.  I can RELY on the Lord.  Can I really "rely" on government?  My clients? Man?  No.  If I can't rely on them and I am dependent on them, am I self-reliant?  No.  But because I CAN rely on the Lord, I can be self-reliant if I am dependent upon Him.  Why?

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I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say.  But when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

I am self-reliant because I depend on the Lord and not man.  And His promises are sure.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I am self-reliant because I depend on the Lord and not man.  And His promises are sure.

Have you stored a year's supply of food? How about a year's supply of water? Of fuel? Do you have a year's supply of oxygen stored up?

God grants us our being from moment to moment. I actually have a lot of sympathy for "preppers", and I wish I did better on that account than I do. But I, like you, believe that the "prepper" mindset is not what "self-reliance" means.

We live within the context of our physical reality. (This fact alone strikes me as overwhelming evidence in support of organic evolution, how perfectly tuned we are to our physical environment -- the Weak Anthropic Principle in action, essentially survivor bias.) How much sense would it make to talk about a painting outside the context of its canvas? Can we intelligently talk about the workings of a computer program removed from the context of computers?

Here's the point: We exert limited or no control over the fundamental reality in which we dwell. We cannot change the universal gravitational constant. We can't change the distance between continents. We cannot even change the global functioning of human societies. All we can really hope to change is ourselves, our own reactions to what happens. So I sort of think that's really what self-reliance means: Being able AND WILLING to choose wise, righteous responses so that we can actually choose our course instead of just plod along, being a thing to act rather than just something to be acted upon.

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11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

There really is no such thing as completely capable within oneself.  Even in financial matters, one does not make money in a vacuum.  I run my own business.  And I'm getting more and more successful. But I'm still dependent upon my clients, the economy, society at large, the government, etc.  While it is certainly not the same thing as being on the dole and completely dependent upon the government, I'm still dependent in a manner.

Faith in the Lord changes only one thing. On whom are we dependent?  If I have true faith in the Lord, it is not clients or government or society that makes or breaks my financial success.  It is the Lord.  No matter what door is closed by man, the Lord can open another.  That is the way of things.  By having faith in the Lord for all things, I do His will, rather than the will of men.  And I am successful.  Yes, one could argue that for the Lord to bless me in business, He expects me to do the will of the customer.  That is true.  This reality doesn't change.  But the perspective does.  I do it because the Lord wants me to do certain things that will serve other men (service of your fellow beings).  I don't serve them because it is somehow my responsibility to satisfy their whims and their lusts or egos.  I do it because I'm serving my fellow man.  And I'm encouraged to do the best job I can because I'm doing it in the name of the Lord.

I do the will of the Lord and the Lord blesses me.  This is dependable.  I can RELY on the Lord.  Can I really "rely" on government?  My clients? Man?  No.  If I can't rely on them and I am dependent on them, am I self-reliant?  No.  But because I CAN rely on the Lord, I can be self-reliant if I am dependent upon Him.  Why?

Quote

I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say.  But when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

I am self-reliant because I depend on the Lord and not man.  And His promises are sure.

Self reliance is such an interesting thing. I too took the personal finance source and was often perplexed by the apparent contradiction of “you need faith in Christ to be self sufficient/reliant”

I would add a few thoughts:

You mentioned how we cannot make money in a vacuum, but we rely on others. Faith, however, is the only thing that can be created in a vacuum where only we exist. It is a wealth that we freely make by mere thought and action (if action is available). Faith, and hope I would add, is a spiritual currency that gives us that self reliance we need to face financial fears and disasters.

Also, we cannot rely on others to bring us to Christ. We and only we can choose to have faith in Christ. Others greatly motivate and can persuade us, but we cannot rely on anyone to actually give us that firm foundation.

lastly, when I think of self reliance, the memory of a family from my mission always comes crashing into my mind. This was a very active family in a tiny branch. The kids were super stars in the gospel, the oldest being only 12 would give masterful sacrament talks. Clearly this cake from the lessons their parents taught them. While  serving as a missionary in this ward, we often assisted with the passing out of food from the church’s bishops store house truck. Once every two weeks we would meet at the church and help people load their food in their cars. This family’s father would always be there. It was strange seeing him stand in line with many of the widows, in active members, and mentally handicapped members of this tiny, mostly first generation branch. Now perhaps there were great sins and addictions in his life that got in the way of him being a provider for his family, but what I did know was one of the most active members of the branch and worked hard to support his family.

After this family comes to mind, I immediately ask myself “are they self reliant?”. I’m pressed to say yes... but i don’t know why.

Edited by Fether
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19 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I've been taking another self-reliance course (one of the 12-week courses recently published by the Church).  This one was "Personal Finance".  In the first lesson, we were asked the question:

We were asked to ponder it rather than discuss it. But a thought came to me.  Faith in Christ means that we are willing to become completely dependent on him.  That is paradoxical with the notion of self-reliance being faith based.  What's up with that?

Although I am not 100% in agreement with the paradox, here are thoughts I have pondered through these courses. The next time our stake organizes this again I plan on taking the "Personal Finance" course. The concept I am hearing in the Church more often (particularly through Elder Bednar) is the notion of "becoming" in the gospel of Jesus Christ. We require "faith in Christ" to become self-reliant, which I wouldn't call this a contradiction or a paradox. We rely on a perfect being, the Spirit of truth, to allow us to become more like God.

I think the paradox or contradiction would be more accurate if the gospel said to exercise faith in Christ and in humans (the arm of flesh) within the realm of becoming self-reliant. We are though commanded to exercise faith in Christ whose glory, power, authority, and peace are not of this world. I think your finishing statement highlights this.

19 hours ago, Carborendum said:

While I understood the concept and accepted that it held some truth, something about this didn't seem to ring true to me.  It didn't really answer the question.  My family wondered what the "correct answer" was --- as if I had an answer in mind already.  I had to inform them that I really had no idea.  And I was having trouble figuring it out myself.

During our class this week, something else was said.  Just a word or two different that changed the course of my thoughts on the matter.

What is self-reliance?  It means you can rely on yourself.  Most people think it is "self-sufficiency" or "independent" which aren't necessarily the same thing.  Then I got to pondering all these concepts around the concept of faith.  Here's what I came up with.  And I'd invite people to weigh in on it to see if it rings true.

*********************************************

There really is no such thing as completely capable within oneself.  Even in financial matters, one does not make money in a vacuum.  I run my own business.  And I'm getting more and more successful. But I'm still dependent upon my clients, the economy, society at large, the government, etc.  While it is certainly not the same thing as being on the dole and completely dependent upon the government, I'm still dependent in a manner.

Faith in the Lord changes only one thing. On whom are we dependent?  If I have true faith in the Lord, it is not clients or government or society that makes or breaks my financial success.  It is the Lord.  No matter what door is closed by man, the Lord can open another.  That is the way of things.  By having faith in the Lord for all things, I do His will, rather than the will of men.  And I am successful.  Yes, one could argue that for the Lord to bless me in business, He expects me to do the will of the customer.  That is true.  This reality doesn't change.  But the perspective does.  I do it because the Lord wants me to do certain things that will serve other men (service of your fellow beings).  I don't serve them because it is somehow my responsibility to satisfy their whims and their lusts or egos.  I do it because I'm serving my fellow man.  And I'm encouraged to do the best job I can because I'm doing it in the name of the Lord.

I do the will of the Lord and the Lord blesses me.  This is dependable.  I can RELY on the Lord.  Can I really "rely" on government?  My clients? Man?  No.  If I can't rely on them and I am dependent on them, am I self-reliant?  No.  But because I CAN rely on the Lord, I can be self-reliant if I am dependent upon Him.  Why?

I am self-reliant because I depend on the Lord and not man.  And His promises are sure.

These words reminds me of the following statement given by the Lord (who was perfectly self-reliant), "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (emphasis mine)

President Lorenzo Snow had the following to say with regards to this scripture, "That is a wonderful saying, and there is a great deal in it. Now, what we want is to have that spirit in every act of our lives and in every undertaking, whether temporal or spiritual, and not think of self. We should try to ascertain how we should spend the money and the information that God has given us. The answer is simple -- for the glory of God. Our eye should be single to the glory of God. That is what we have left the other life for and come into this. We should seek to promote the interests of the Most High God, and to feel as Jesus felt, 'I can of mine own self do nothing.' Inasmuch as we act today and tomorrow, this week and the next week, in the interest of God, and have our eye single to his glory, there can be no failure. (The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, pg 107-108)

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On 10/20/2018 at 9:20 PM, Carborendum said:

I've been taking another self-reliance course (one of the 12-week courses recently published by the Church).  This one was "Personal Finance".  In the first lesson, we were asked the question:

We were asked to ponder it rather than discuss it. But a thought came to me.  Faith in Christ means that we are willing to become completely dependent on him.  That is paradoxical with the notion of self-reliance being faith based.  What's up with that?

I brought up the topic to my family during a family council.  The response was unanimously the same from each of them:

While I understood the concept and accepted that it held some truth, something about this didn't seem to ring true to me.  It didn't really answer the question.  My family wondered what the "correct answer" was --- as if I had an answer in mind already.  I had to inform them that I really had no idea.  And I was having trouble figuring it out myself.

During our class this week, something else was said.  Just a word or two different that changed the course of my thoughts on the matter.

What is self-reliance?  It means you can rely on yourself.  Most people think it is "self-sufficiency" or "independent" which aren't necessarily the same thing.  Then I got to pondering all these concepts around the concept of faith.  Here's what I came up with.  And I'd invite people to weigh in on it to see if it rings true.

*********************************************

There really is no such thing as completely capable within oneself.  Even in financial matters, one does not make money in a vacuum.  I run my own business.  And I'm getting more and more successful. But I'm still dependent upon my clients, the economy, society at large, the government, etc.  While it is certainly not the same thing as being on the dole and completely dependent upon the government, I'm still dependent in a manner.

Faith in the Lord changes only one thing. On whom are we dependent?  If I have true faith in the Lord, it is not clients or government or society that makes or breaks my financial success.  It is the Lord.  No matter what door is closed by man, the Lord can open another.  That is the way of things.  By having faith in the Lord for all things, I do His will, rather than the will of men.  And I am successful.  Yes, one could argue that for the Lord to bless me in business, He expects me to do the will of the customer.  That is true.  This reality doesn't change.  But the perspective does.  I do it because the Lord wants me to do certain things that will serve other men (service of your fellow beings).  I don't serve them because it is somehow my responsibility to satisfy their whims and their lusts or egos.  I do it because I'm serving my fellow man.  And I'm encouraged to do the best job I can because I'm doing it in the name of the Lord.

I do the will of the Lord and the Lord blesses me.  This is dependable.  I can RELY on the Lord.  Can I really "rely" on government?  My clients? Man?  No.  If I can't rely on them and I am dependent on them, am I self-reliant?  No.  But because I CAN rely on the Lord, I can be self-reliant if I am dependent upon Him.  Why?

I am self-reliant because I depend on the Lord and not man.  And His promises are sure.

When I took the self-reliance course I had similar thoughts.

I tend to think the term self-reliance is a bit of a misnomer. It's one of those gospel paradoxes. To be self reliant means to rely on another.

Of course, in context, it is "self" reliance, in that it's motivating people to do their parts. But that is the gospel, yes? We do all that we can -- then the Lord takes up the slack. Or, put another way, we are saved by faith after all we can do.

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14 hours ago, Anddenex said:

(who was perfectly self-reliant), "I can of mine own self do nothing:

These two ideas are directly contradictory.

self-re·li·ant
adjective
 
  1. reliant on one's own powers and resources rather than those of others.

If one can of their own selves do nothing then it is, dictionary-definition-wise, not self-reliance. ;)

 

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Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

These two ideas are directly contradictory.

self-re·li·ant
adjective
 
  1. reliant on one's own powers and resources rather than those of others.

If one can of their own selves do nothing then it is, dictionary-definition-wise, not self-reliance. ;)

 

We will agree to disagree ;)

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"Self-reliance is the ability, commitment, and effort to provide the spiritual and temporal necessities of life for self and family" (Handbook 2: Administering the Church [2010], 6.1.1).

 

While the worldly definition of self-reliance seems to be a paradox, the definition provided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not. 

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When we ask God for knowledge (doctrinal, spiritual guidance, survival, etc.), He will grant it to us. Matthew 21:22 says "And whatever you ask in prayer you will receive, if you have faith". After we receive this knowledge, it's our responsibility to put it into action. This is why we are called to self-reliance; we are relying on God to guide us so that we can find the strength to pursue the insight that God grants us to follow. We can't carry out His will without using our own mental/physical strength. 

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On 10/20/2018 at 9:20 PM, Carborendum said:

We were asked to ponder it rather than discuss it. But a thought came to me.  Faith in Christ means that we are willing to become completely dependent on him.  That is paradoxical with the notion of self-reliance being faith based.  What's up with that?

Excellent questions.  

This has been on my mind a lot lately.  I'm a person who likes to take care of things myself/with-my-hubby.  I don't like asking for help if it's something I can do myself- which is most things.  I've worked hard to make that be most things, and being able to run day-to-day without outside help.  To me that is a matter of being self reliant and following God's command of being a good steward over my jurisdiction.  

But lately... life has been very hard. A string of continually bad luck involving ambulances, broken cars, medical stuff, relationship drama, parenting challenges, etc has left me on my butt.  And on many days I'm not even able to get up that much.  And I've had to ask for a lot of help.  Some big things (2 AM please-drive-person-to-ER) and many smaller things (my daughter needs to go to preschool and I can't take her).  It's not something I'm naturally comfortable with.  And the fact that I don't even know what my own capabilities will be in 12 hours is... very frustrating.  

So yeah... I've been thinking on this subject a lot lately.  What is true self-reliance?  Well... let's start with the easier question "what is self-reliance not?".   It's not being able to always always do everything yourself-- that idea is laughable.  It's not "I'm never never going to have problems" or "I'm never not going to need help".   I want to say something like "it's being willing and able to walk when you can walk, and to build what strength you can there".  I want to include a part about knowing yourself.  I want to include a part about having the humility to ask for help when you really do need it.  And then the awareness of knowing when it's something you can do yourself vs when having help would make things much better.  Also about being willing to grow/exercise to increase your strength.

We're not meant to go through things alone, and I don't think that's "self reliance" at all.  Rather it's... I shall have to ponder on the best way of phrasing this more.  

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On 10/23/2018 at 2:08 PM, pwrfrk said:

I had signed up for the courses, but I was never told when or where the classes would be and when I asked about that I was told it was for Mormons only.

Too bad they don't exist anymore.

Edited by Guest
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On 10/21/2018 at 1:20 PM, Carborendum said:

I've been taking another self-reliance course (one of the 12-week courses recently published by the Church).  This one was "Personal Finance".  In the first lesson, we were asked the question:

How does faith in Jesus Christ encourage us to become self-reliant?

I think this is brilliant, I'm not LDS and I really don't understand a lot of what you guys are talking about in this thread (a years supply of food and water for example, no idea lol) but the fact that there is an actual course run by your church on personal finance is wonderful.  I think too many children (and adults of course) grow up without knowing how to handle money, how to prioritise their money so they don't have to stress out when the electricity bill arrives (after all the electricity bill is not a surprise!).

As parents my husband and I talk to our son about money a lot, he has a good financial plan and is on track to buying his first home (well apartment or townhouse but still!), but unfortunately we are a minority and most of his friends are not in the same position.  

You should all be proud to be part of a church that talks openly about this subject.

Its so important that people are in control of their finances.  Money is certainly not the most important thing in life but if you are not in control of it, it can have the power to ruin your life.

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22 hours ago, marge said:

I think this is brilliant, I'm not LDS and I really don't understand a lot of what you guys are talking about in this thread (a years supply of food and water for example, no idea lol) but the fact that there is an actual course run by your church on personal finance is wonderful.  I think too many children (and adults of course) grow up without knowing how to handle money, how to prioritise their money so they don't have to stress out when the electricity bill arrives (after all the electricity bill is not a surprise!).

As parents my husband and I talk to our son about money a lot, he has a good financial plan and is on track to buying his first home (well apartment or townhouse but still!), but unfortunately we are a minority and most of his friends are not in the same position.  

You should all be proud to be part of a church that talks openly about this subject.

Its so important that people are in control of their finances.  Money is certainly not the most important thing in life but if you are not in control of it, it can have the power to ruin your life.

There's a whole slew of these classes that are usually 3 months long...  These are the ones I know of:  My Path (This is like the master plan of how to become self-reliant), My foundation (teaching habits as a foundation for self-reliance), My Education (How to leverage education for self-reliance), Personal Finance (basically Home Economics), My Business (how to start and manage a business), My Job (How to find, keep, and improve on a job).  I'm sure there are others.

P.S.  You can study these for free as well.  You can ask missionaries if there are classes held close to you or you can go through the manuals and self study.  Most of them are designed with accountability partners, though, so it would be great if you can study the manuals with somebody - a spouse, a friend, etc.

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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

There's a whole slew of these classes that are usually 3 months long...  These are the ones I know of:  My Path (This is like the master plan of how to become self-reliant), My foundation (teaching habits as a foundation for self-reliance), My Education (How to leverage education for self-reliance), Personal Finance (basically Home Economics), My Business (how to start and manage a business), My Job (How to find, keep, and improve on a job).  I'm sure there are others.

P.S.  You can study these for free as well.  You can ask missionaries if there are classes held close to you or you can go through the manuals and self study.  Most of them are designed with accountability partners, though, so it would be great if you can study the manuals with somebody - a spouse, a friend, etc.

That's so amazing.  Is there any chance these manuals are available online? I'd love to go through them with my family.  Its so important.

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I'll be the aberrant voice. I only believe in being self reliant insofar as I am not a burden to anyone. While I believe in bearing one another's burdens, I prefer that to be an equitable proposition. Otherwise, I strongly advocate what the Lord declared to his people through Jacob in the land of Nephi:

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Jacob 2:17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.

18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Or consider what Jesus Christ taught his twelve disciples who were to become his special witnesses:

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25 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he looked upon the twelve whom he had chosen, and said unto them: Remember the words which I have spoken. For behold, ye are they whom I have chosen to minister unto this people. Therefore I say unto you, take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air, for they sow not, neither do they reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin;

29 And yet I say unto you, that even Solomon, in all his glory, was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, even so will he clothe you, if ye are not of little faith.

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 For your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient is the day unto the evil thereof.

And the time came when He asked if they ever lacked anything for their discipleship:

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35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

We see examples of those who were self reliant and yet were called to repentance. For example:

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Alma 10:4 And behold, I am also a man of no small reputation among all those who know me; yea, and behold, I have many kindreds and friends, and I have also acquired much riches by the hand of my industry.

5 Nevertheless, after all this, I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I said I never had known much of these things; but behold, I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power; yea, even in the preservation of the lives of this people.

6 Nevertheless, I did harden my heart, for I was called many times and I would not hear; therefore I knew concerning these things, yet I would not know; therefore I went on rebelling against God, in the wickedness of my heart, even until the fourth day of this seventh month, which is in the tenth year of the reign of the judges.

7 As I was journeying to see a very near kindred, behold an angelof the Lord appeared unto me and said: Amulek, return to thine own house, for thou shalt feed a prophet of the Lord; yea, a holy man, who is a chosen man of God; for he has fasted many days because of the sins of this people, and he is an hungered, and thou shalt receive him into thy house and feed him, and he shall bless thee and thy house; and the blessing of the Lord shall rest upon thee and thy house.

Amulek repented of his self serving, self reliant ways to serve someone else, who was wholly reliant on the Lord, namely Alma who I believe went preaching without purse or scrip:

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Alma 8:19 And as he entered the city he was an hungered, and he said to a man: Will ye give to an humble servant of God something to eat?

Like Jesus' disciples, Alma never lacked anything. For he labored as one who labors in Zion. But as not all are apostles of the Lord, we can all be disciples. For example:

Consider the following parable given by Jesus Christ:

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Luke 12:15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?

18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.

19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

The man in the parable was the kind of man that planned for tomorrow. He saved up for his retirement. He kept his food storage. He was certainly self reliant. What could he have done with this stores while he acquired them that Jesus Christ would have approved of? Verse 21 seems to qualify the Lord's intent. If we choose to seek for riches, it ought to be for the sole purpose of elevating the least of His children who are powerless, even undeserving of our surplus. For we are all undeserving of all God has to offer us and it is only by His grace and His love that we have received anything. But that is how we retain a remission of our own sins.

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Mosiah 4:12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

13 And ye will not have a mind to injure one another, but to live peaceably, and to render to every man according to that which is his due.

14 And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the evil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness.

15 But ye will teach them to walk in the ways of truth and soberness; ye will teach them to love one another, and to serve one another.

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

Or else we might find ourselves in a worse fate.

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31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheepfrom the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

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13 hours ago, marge said:

That's so amazing.  Is there any chance these manuals are available online? I'd love to go through them with my family.  Its so important.

I'm encouraged by your willingness to accept these manuals as a resource.  But I'll give you a heads up.  Much of what is in the manuals is centered on our faith.  Much of that will certainly have overlap with your faith.  But much will not.  Some of the principles taught about self-reliance may or may not be what you were expecting.  But to us, it makes all the sense in the world that these gospel insights point us directly to the topic at hand.

I, myself, was surprised at how many of the same scriptures are applied to multiple courses/topics.  But after pondering for a while, it made sense that they did apply.  I hope that you at least find an equivalent principle in your own faith that you may ponder when you read something that is not taught in your faith.

Also in the manuals, you'll find some videos to watch as you go through the course.  While the text is in the manual, the videos are more helpful -- at least, they were to me.

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12 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm encouraged by your willingness to accept these manuals as a resource.  But I'll give you a heads up.  Much of what is in the manuals is centered on our faith.  Much of that will certainly have overlap with your faith.  But much will not.  Some of the principles taught about self-reliance may or may not be what you were expecting.  But to us, it makes all the sense in the world that these gospel insights point us directly to the topic at hand.

I, myself, was surprised at how many of the same scriptures are applied to multiple courses/topics.  But after pondering for a while, it made sense that they did apply.  I hope that you at least find an equivalent principle in your own faith that you may ponder when you read something that is not taught in your faith.

Also in the manuals, you'll find some videos to watch as you go through the course.  While the text is in the manual, the videos are more helpful -- at least, they were to me.

Thanks, videos are always helpful, and I like the idea of financial lessons being tied to faith, I'm interested to see what the course holds.  Reading something from a different faith can't hurt, its always good to be open minded. 😀

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Have you stored a year's supply of food? ....

God grants us our being from moment to moment. I actually have a lot of sympathy for "preppers", and I wish I did better on that account than I do. But I, like you, believe that the "prepper" mindset is not what "self-reliance" means.

 

I would respectfully disagree.  Having food storage and the like isn't all there is to being self reliant, but it is part of it.  Our Church publication on Provident Living says so:

https://providentliving.lds.org/?lang=eng

In my own opinion at least, food storage is one of the best temporal principles that our Church has.  

Anyway, right now we don't have our year supply, but it because we did and are currently using it.

An "emergency situation" doesn't have to be a natural disaster.   In the past 25+ years we have had to dip into our food storage twice. 

The first time was when I got laid off at a job, but we didn't have to dip into it for very long.  I quickly found a new job, so we only used three weeks or so worth out of the year supply.

This year, we have been eating our food storage on and off for seven months.  I expect that we will use the rest of it up by next spring. My wife had a heart surgery last year, which was expensive, but this year was much worse.   My son has been having some issues and our out of pocket medical expenses are now well into the six figure range (the out of pocket is a actually a little lower than this because of double billing, but not much):

medex.thumb.JPG.4dc8d44b793eec28575a8d411368a8d2.JPG

 

Further, I live in a mining town and the biggest mine is going to shut down soon.  House prices have taken a nosedive and there are foreclosures all over the place.  I am out of work at the town I live in and I have to relocate, so along with hundreds of other people in this small town, our house is on the market.  A bank won't give us a loan on a house that is on the market and we can't take the house off the market because we need to sell and relocate.

Food storage has helped us out tremendously in the past few months.   So have the other principles of provident living. 

This year, we have  lost all of our home equity (we only had five years to pay off the house), all of our savings (even though we have been very wise with our money), and a lot of our retirement funds.  Food storage has really helped us pull through as well as we have.  

I really believe in food storage and the other principles in the Church Provident Living program.  

It doesn't matter how well off you think you are, how much you think you have saved up, or where you live.  An emergency can always hit at anytime.   It doesn't have to be a tsunami, earthquake, or hurricane.   It might be something as simple as tripping on the curb and shattering your ankle.  You or a loved one could get sick.  You could lose your job.  Right now the economy is good, but there is no guarantee that it will stay that way.  

An emergency might not ever happen to you and we all hope for that.  Still, if it does happen you will be glad that you have your food storage.   An emergency doesn't even have to happen to you for your food storage to be needed.   It could be a family member or neighbor as well.  

Of course, we just have to do our best.  Some people out there really do need help.   We still have to do our part to be self reliant, but there will still always be people out there that need help.  Being self reliant doesn't mean that we should pass our judgement on others because of their situations.   Being self reliant doesn't mean that we deny others and only focus on ourselves.  It means that we do everything we can to help ourselves and to keep ourselves and our families taken care of.  You can be self reliant and still help others, even if you live on a modest income.  To me, a part of self reliance is helping others to be self reliant as much as they are capable (which is the primary reason I still believe that some people are in need of affordable medical care or welfare at times, as long as they don't take advantage of it).  If for example, someone needs medical care that cost more than they make, it is impossible for them to be self reliant, even if they are doing their best.  They just have to do their best and hopefully others will be willing to help them.  Self reliance does not negate charity.  I guess that's an entirely different topic though and I don't want to stray too much off topic.  

Anyway, to sum it up, I really do have a testimony about food storage and do believe that it is part of self reliance. 

Edited by Scott
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