1 Nephi, Chapter 11

[serapha]

6 And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired.

And the basis for being blessed is? That Nephi believed in his father's dream? No, for Lehi told Nephi, and Nephi says, "And my father said..." Therefore, the basis for being blessed was a belief in what his eartly father said, not in the dream itself.

13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

hmmmmmmmm.

and how did Nephi know it was the city of Nazareth? Nazareth did not exist either by the name of Nazareth or any other name in 600 BC. The village of Nazareth was establish approximately 100 BC. There is no archaeological evidence of inhabitation during the Persian and early Hellenistic periods.

Archaeology just doesn't support the book of mormon.

25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God.

So is the interpretation of the tree, the love of God or the fulfillment of a Messiah bringing eternal life? Or, is it the river that is the continuous flowing of the love of God?

33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.

I realize that Nephi is seeing into the future, but please explain how he recognizes a crucifixion on a cross.

Brant Gardner states,

"The absence of the cross as an image in the Book of Mormon bears at least some mention in connection with the prevalence of the cross in Mesoamerica. The primary association of the Mesoamerican cross was the tree of life, and has no context at all as an instrument of death. If there were any connection at all between those symbols and the Book of Mormon, they would have entered after the visit of Christ to the Americas, and not as a result of Nephi's dream."

Now, George Potter and Richard Wellington use the Wadi Tayyib al-Ism as the basis for all of the symbolism of the dream of Lehi and Nephi.

"Nibley suggested that the elements of Lehi's dream scenery were made up of the images that surrounded him: "That is natural enough, for men to dream by night of the things they see by day--that is what makes Lehi's dream so convincing as authentic testimony." (Lehi, 81 evidences, page 41)

Additionally, the Near East had allegoriccal imagery of "a tree planted upon earth by the mother goddess, Ianna/Ishtar. The sacred tree, usually represented in teh form of a stylized palm tree growing ona mountain, is the most common decorative motif in Assyrian royal iconography." (Simo Parpola, Lehi, 81 evidences, page 44)

The cosmic tree is associated with the mother of God and the date palm which is the "tree of life" in the Wadi Tayyib al-Ism.

So, all of the symbolism of the tree of life dream is representative of the Wadi Tayyib al-Ism, as each description from the dream is identified in a physical sense in the wadi?

The Tree of Life

A dark and Ddeary wilderness

The large and spacious field

A tree with white fruit

The river

The strait and narrow path

The rod of iron

the mist of darkness

the great and spacious building

the awful gulf

the depths of the fountain...

all these are symbolism of the Valley of Lemuel? But representative of the love of God?

~serapha~

[Guest Starsky]

6 And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired.

And the basis for being blessed is? That Nephi believed in his father's dream? No, for Lehi told Nephi, and Nephi says, "And my father said..." Therefore, the basis for being blessed was a belief in what his eartly father said, not in the dream itself.

You totally missed it...LOL....sorry...but this demonstrates so strongly the need for the Spirit to be with you when you read scriptures.

The basis for the blessing was believing without having physical evidence...that his father was receiving revelation from the Father...after the trial of your faith...the blessings come. We are asked to believe our leaders in the teachings from the OT to the Pearl of Great Price.....

What was demonstrated in this and other scriptures (1 Nephi 7:3) is that Nephi had faith that his father was being inspired as a leader.....and now....that faith and belief was rewarded with this great revelation of his own.

I can't believe how far off you were....Thank you for being candid....it is awesome to see how the Spirit works or how the lack of it doesn't work.

13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

hmmmmmmmm.

and how did Nephi know it was the city of Nazareth? Nazareth did not exist either by the name of Nazareth or any other name in 600 BC. The village of Nazareth was establish approximately 100 BC. There is no archaeological evidence of inhabitation during the Persian and early Hellenistic periods.

These scriptures were translated in the 1800's through devine power.....don't you think the Lord would use the familiar/recognizable name to give in our day for our day?

Remember also, these writing were the 2nd attempt, the shorter version because the 116 pages were lost. Perhaps in that first version the old name was given with the new name with an explanation. But we will never know....in this life time. Just know this, the BofM was actually a translation through the gifts of the Spirit of God and is a true and devine work.

Many people will see the same thing and yet perceive it differently according to their own bias....unless they are intune with the Holy ghost and totally submissive to the Father's will. If they are spiritually prepared and filled ...they will be guided to see and hear...what those in darkness will never see and hear.

Archaeology doesn't support the bible either.

25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God.

So is the interpretation of the tree, the love of God or the fulfillment of a Messiah bringing eternal life? Or, is it the river that is the continuous flowing of the love of God?

The tree is the Love of God and God is Love or source of Love as the tree and it's fruit....(1 Jn. 4: 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.)

The tree is a continual symbol of Christ's life. Beginning in the Garden of Eden...the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil...to the tree/cross.

Living waters are also a metaphor used to describe God in His love, flowing to all who will come unto Him.(Jer. 2: 13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.) God so loved the world...that He sent His only begotten Son....This is the Love of God...living waters.

There is no contradiction in that Christ is the vine/tree and living waters....both being the same thing yet different metaphors expression the way His love is given to us.

33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.

I realize that Nephi is seeing into the future, but please explain how he recognizes a crucifixion on a cross.

Brant Gardner states,

"The absence of the cross as an image in the Book of Mormon bears at least some mention in connection with the prevalence of the cross in Mesoamerica. The primary association of the Mesoamerican cross was the tree of life, and has no context at all as an instrument of death. If there were any connection at all between those symbols and the Book of Mormon, they would have entered after the visit of Christ to the Americas, and not as a result of Nephi's dream."

I you have ever received a revelation from the Lord, you know that He gives you all knowledge pertaining to that revelation. Why would you think that God would show Nephi a strange sight (Him hanging on a Cross) and not give him the understanding and knowledge of what he was seeing?

So, all of the symbolism of the tree of life dream is representative of the Wadi Tayyib al-Ism, as each description from the dream is identified in a physical sense in the wadi?

The Tree of Life

A dark and Ddeary wilderness

The large and spacious field

A tree with white fruit

The river

The strait and narrow path

The rod of iron

the mist of darkness

the great and spacious building

the awful gulf

the depths of the fountain...

all these are symbolism of the Valley of Lemuel? But representative of the love of God?

If God was in the beginning...and He has given His gospel to all of His children over the ages...and they have corrupted the keeping of these truths....and these are found in different forms through out many cultures....there is no problem with the actual true concepts being taught again to Lehi.

Truth is eternal....it is men who change and rearrange.

Now...as for the valley of lemuel....I don't see that Nibley's interpretation is wrong....but I don't see it as authorative either.

I have never equated the VoL with anything but what it was said to be. Take the scriptures over Nibley. Take the Spirit over Nibley...

Nibley has done a lot of work, but each one of us must use the Spirit as our Guide when it comes to searching the scriptures...I don't remember Nibley being called of God as a prophet.....btw.

[serapha]

Archaeology doesn't support the bible either.

I'm sorry, you are mistaken. I lecture on the Bible and archaeology, and you are about to get a lecture right now... read on...

Living waters are also a metaphor used to describe God in His love, flowing to all who will come unto Him.(Jer. 2: 13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.) God so loved the world...that He sent His only begotten Son....This is the Love of God...living waters.

There is no contradiction in that Christ is the vine/tree and living waters....both being the same thing yet different metaphors expression the way His love is given to us.

Gathering Stones in Sychar

For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water (Jeremiah 2:13)

Water is a precious commodity in Israel because of the arid conditions. From mid-April until mid-October, there is relatively little or no rainfall in the region to sustain life; therefore, in ancient Palestine, cisterns were hewn out of the limestone rock base. They were plastered on the inside walls to prevent the loss of water through cracks in the limestone foundation, and during the "early" and "latter" rains of winter, water would be diverted to the cisterns for storage until it was needed in the dry summer months.

Until the water was needed and used, it remained in the cisterns, uncirculated and growing stagnant by the stillness of the water. Animals or rodents might be found floating in the water that would later be used for cooking, drinking, and other household uses. In Hebrew, this water was termed "still waters" because of deadness of the water.

In contrast, the water of running streams was identified as "living waters" as the flowing water sustained life. Shepherds who were herding their flocks in the open would eventually be seeking the "living waters" to sustain them in the arid regions. Without the "living water" in the grazing lands, the shepherd and the sheep would die, therefore, the shepherd would seek out the "living waters" of river streams or Wadi flows.

"Living water" was also the source for the ritual purification baths whereas the water that was used in the seamless mikvah was received from water untouched by human hands.

So, where does this fit in the Bible?

5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.

6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.

7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:5-14)

Jacob's well has two sources of water, both from the surface and from the underground, so the water could be determined to be either "living water" or "still water" depending on the content of the water. The woman came to the well to draw water knowing that wells were normally a source of "still water". Jesus spoke to her and offered her the gift of God, the gift of "living waters" that would never die. Jesus offered her a sustaining, everlasting supply of life that could not be offered by any other person.

"Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst." Jesus doesn't give a drink from a "still water" source that will be stagnant and filled with bacteria. Jesus is the source of "living water" that will flow continuously and never run dry.

<span style=\'color:green\'>Funny thing... you say that archaeology doesn't support the Bible, and then you cite a source that is fully supported by archaeological findings, i.e. cisterns and mikvah, and historical supports such as the Jewish teachings on "living" and "still" waters.

I don't think that there is an archaeological finding in Israel (Iron AgeII to Second Temple) that doesn't support the Bible. On the other hand, many of the archaeological findings from Iron Age II - present stand in the face of the bom, i.e. metalluragy, shipbuilding, cairns and dolmens, petroglyphs, metal plates....etc. etc. etc.

and BTW... stela 5 is not a good archaeological support for Lehi's "tree of life".

~serapha~

[Guest lt]

I thik the two of you have started a great topic, which will interest many, however keep the communication nice ok.....

[Guest lt]

starski,

I agree it was based on faith

[serapha]

I thik the two of you have started a great topic, which will interest many, however keep the communication nice ok.....

You must be talking to Starsky ....

~serapha~

[Guest Starsky]

Actually if you consider the cistern an 'archaeolgical basis' of the Bible...you will find the same proof of the BofM...in the ruins of South America.They have found multiple places where water was channelled for baptism and bathing....ritually.

Water has always been a 'scarece' resource unless you were in a time of flooding. Living in Utah and experiencing the 6th year of a drought.....makes you know there is more than just Jerusalem and surrounding areas who know of the need of water and how precious to life it is.

I don't see that you have anything more for the bible than we have for the BofM.

I would like to see the ark, the name of Moses, or original sources for any of the Bible .... which btw was edited by Shakespear.... the poet...who put in his own ideas and the kings ideas and changes...such as 'the word king instead of emperor.