Whom do we worship?

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

When I pray to my Father in Heaven he is the one who answers my prayers. At times Heavenly Father will answer that through dreams. He will answer through service of another. He will answer through the voice of his Spirit. He will even answer through his Son. I can find no evidence from scripture when I am praying to the Father that the His Son answers.

What brings you to this conclusion?

I use the following visual aid to help illustrate how prayer most commonly functions.  Because of sin we have separated ourselves from the presence of the Father.  We pray to Elohim through Jesus Christ our Mediator.  And the Holy Ghost most commonly answers our prayers. 

Of course the Father is the prime mover in all things.  You can say that Elohim is answering our prayers though the Holy Ghost.  And although Jesus Christ can answer prayers directly, those instances are few and far between.  

 

Edited October 25, 2018 by mikbone

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I use the following visual aid to help illustrate how prayer most commonly functions.  Because of sin we have separated ourselves from the presence of the Father.  We pray to Elohim through Jesus Christ our Mediator.  And the Holy Ghost most commonly answers our prayers. 

Of course the Father is the prime mover in all things.  You can say that Elohim is answering our prayers though the Holy Ghost.  And although Jesus Christ can answer prayers those instances are few and far between.  

 

The illustration is incorrect. In the words of Elder McConkie:

Our prayers are addressed to the Father, and to him only. They do not go through Christ, or the Blessed Virgin, or St. Genevieve or along the beads of a rosary. We are entitled to “come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need” (Hebrews 4:16). And I rather suppose that he who sitteth upon the throne will choose his own ways to answer his children, and that they are numerous.

[mikbone]

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

The illustration is incorrect. In the words of Elder McConkie:

Our prayers are addressed to the Father, and to him only. They do not go through Christ, or the Blessed Virgin, or St. Genevieve or along the beads of a rosary. We are entitled to “come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need” (Hebrews 4:16). And I rather suppose that he who sitteth upon the throne will choose his own ways to answer his children, and that they are numerous.

I agree, we pray to the Father.  But we do so in the name of Jesus Christ (not the blessed virgin or st. genevieve, or the rosary).  

 

Perhaps if you have been through the temple you have seen how communication to the Father occurs.   

Edited October 25, 2018 by mikbone

[Vort]

Just now, mikbone said:

I agree, we pray to the Father.  But we do so in the name of Jesus Christ (not the blessed virgin or st. genevieve, or the rosary).  

Please note that we pray in the name of Christ, and not "through Christ". We are to become agents of Christ, taking his name upon us, and then pray to the Father in that name that is now ours. This is the "new name" that king Benjamin gave his people. As Paul taught, we are to “come boldly unto the throne of grace". True, our sin separates us from God. But the role of the Savior is to remove that obstacle, not to circumvent it.

[Traveler]

Okay - here is a question - do we worship the individual being(s) of G-d(s) or do we worship their attributes and characteristics?

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Okay - here is a question - do we worship the individual being(s) of G-d(s) or do we worship their attributes and characteristics?

We worship beings, not attributes.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Just a small item: "Whom do we worship."

[Rob Osborn]

I can testify that our prayers are heard directly by the Father. It is in Him that we address and in so doing He directly hears us. Now, the Father may answer our prayers through a multitude of means and people, but know this- we have a direct connection straight to the Father through prayer.

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Just a small item: "Whom do we worship."

Every time I look at the thread subject, I have a quarter-of-a-second reaction where my brain says, "Whom, not who!" Apparently I'm not the only one.

[mikbone]

9 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Okay - here is a question - do we worship the individual being(s) of G-d(s) or do we worship their attributes and characteristics?

 

The Traveler

Exactly.  This is the question.  As stated by Joseph Smith, we have to have a correct idea of whom God is to truly develop faith.

Vort may be worshiping beings.  Others may be worshiping attributes.  

Our understanding of the character of God and Jesus Christ is paramount in our devotion and worship.  Thus we should do our best to get to know them better.  Thru prayer and even study.

Unless you have had your calling and election made sure, you don't know them.  

The more we know about God and successfully emulate his character, the closer we come to true worship.

[mikbone]

9 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Just a small item: "Whom do we worship."

fixed 😉

[skalenfehl]

@Anddenex, I'm on my cell, so my answer must be brief. If you read everything I shared in this thread including my pdf link, you will see that I have already addressed this. If it's still unclear, I'll try and clarity when I get home to my computer. Cheers.

[Anddenex]

50 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I use the following visual aid to help illustrate how prayer most commonly functions.  Because of sin we have separated ourselves from the presence of the Father.  We pray to Elohim through Jesus Christ our Mediator.  And the Holy Ghost most commonly answers our prayers. 

Of course the Father is the prime mover in all things.  You can say that Elohim is answering our prayers though the Holy Ghost.  And although Jesus Christ can answer prayers directly, those instances are few and far between.  

 

I understand what you are specifying, and I also understand what @Vort is specifying -- I think.

We are taught in scripture, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."  I can understand how one would interpret such a statement that all our actions to the Father are through (by) Jesus Christ.

I am OK with this diagram, in light of this scripture, and my personal feelings that without our mediator, the one who pleads our cause, we are not able to come unto the Father -- at all; however, I think the diagram accurate depicts spiritual death. Our separation from the Father. I directly address the Father, but with out "in the name of Jesus Christ" my prayer may not have the efficacy required coming from an individual who has been taught the proper order of prayer through the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

At the same time though, I do find myself addressing the Father without "In the name of Jesus Christ" in silent petitions, not formal petitions. Like when I have taken a test and I am the whole way through, "Heavenly Father please up help brings items back to my remembrance."

The whole idea of this thread is very, very important. We NEED to understand the correct character and attributes of God in order to worship him in truth and spirit. We are progressing toward such. One aspect is as Joseph Smith shared, we now know God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ both have a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's. This concept is one aspect that allows us to worship him in spirit and in truth.

We worship God, a being; however, God is not God without his character and attributes. These are what makes him God the Father.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Perhaps if you have been through the temple you have seen how communication to the Father occurs.

Indeed. In the Garden, our first parents are portrayed as speaking directly with the Father. In the post-Garden-exile portion of the endowment presentation, there is exactly one time they are portrayed in prayer—praying directly to the Father. No exceptions.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Every time I look at the thread subject, I have a quarter-of-a-second reaction where my brain says, "Whom, not who!" Apparently I'm not the only one.

 

[jerome1232]

My initial reaction to this thread was a brief thought.
 

Quote

Whom (I added the whom just for Vort) do we worship? Why God of course!

I think this is being overthought. It's clear to *me* from scripture that Jesus of Nazareth instructed us to pray to the Father. That the Glory goes to the Father. The Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one God united in purpose.

Whom do we worship? God! To whom do we address our prayers? God the Father in the name of God the Son.
 

Edited October 25, 2018 by jerome1232
I can't type

[zil]

no longer applicable.

Edited October 25, 2018 by zil

[jerome1232]

7 minutes ago, zil said:

I'm thinking you made a type-o there.  You got the same person in that list twice.

Fixed, thanks.

[SpiritDragon]

6 hours ago, mikbone said:

I agree, we pray to the Father.  But we do so in the name of Jesus Christ (not the blessed virgin or st. genevieve, or the rosary).  

6 hours ago, Vort said:

Please note that we pray in the name of Christ, and not "through Christ". We are to become agents of Christ, taking his name upon us, and then pray to the Father in that name that is now ours. This is the "new name" that king Benjamin gave his people. As Paul taught, we are to “come boldly unto the throne of grace". True, our sin separates us from God. But the role of the Savior is to remove that obstacle, not to circumvent it.

 

I'm sympathetic to the idea of going through Christ myself, not in that we pray to the Son and he conveys the message to the Father, but that via the Savior making it possible. We know that we are separated from the presence of God because of sin and as such our petitions aren't worthy of the Father's presence. By acting as a mediator between God and man, Jesus enables us to petition the Father directly.

An analogy that may help is speaking to someone over the phone. In doing so the conversation is directed to the person on the other end directly, but, presumably because of distance, the conversation can't be held in person. The phone system facilitates this. Thus it wouldn't be inaccurate to say that the conversation was through the phone.

1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

No man cometh unto the Father except by Jesus Christ

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/mediator?lang=eng

The following is an excerpt from "Pray Unto the Father in my Name," by L. Edward Brown, a General Authority at the time.

Quote

When we use these sacred words, “in the name of Jesus Christ,” they are much more than a way to get out of a prayer or out of a testimony or out of a talk. We are on holy ground, brothers and sisters. We are using a name most sublime, most holy, and most wonderful—the very name of the Son of God. We are now able to come unto the Father through His Beloved Son. What power and reassurance and peace come when we really pray in His name. This conclusion to the prayer may, in many ways, be the most important part of the prayer. We can appeal to the Father through His victorious Son with confidence that our prayers will be heard. We can ask and receive, we can seek and find and subsequently find the open door.

Perhaps this all comes down to a different perspective on what it means to go "through" Jesus?

Either way, we worship God - The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We pray to the Father. The son makes these prayers efficacious, and the Holy Ghost is the medium by which answers come whether directly to the individual offering the prayer or communication to others in tune enough to serve as answer to that prayer on behalf of another.

[jerome1232]

10 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

An analogy that may help is speaking to someone over the phone. In doing so the conversation is directed to the person on the other end directly, but, presumably because of distance, the conversation can't be held in person. The phone system facilitates this. Thus it wouldn't be inaccurate to say that the conversation was through the phone.

That's an interesting analogy. I really like it.

[carlimac]

On 10/24/2018 at 3:44 PM, Vort said:

@zil did not deny anything in the scriptures. Not sure how your exegesis of John 14:13-14 supports the idea of praying to Christ, when that is manifestly not what the scripture says.

Elder McConkie unambiguously taught:

We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost...Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator...Our prayers are addressed to the Father, and to him only.

I bolded the question this creates for me. I thought Jehovah created the earth and all that is on it. What does McConkie meant by "the Creator"?

[carlimac]

As far as whom we pray to, it probably doesn't matter as much as we think it does. I'm sure that honest heartfelt prayers said to Jesus are heard, too, even if it's not doctrinally exactly what we're taught. I would assume that both the Father and Jesus Christ are involved in the affairs of men and women on earth. Perhaps our Heavenly Mother(s??) are, too but we just don't recognize it. We aren't meant to at this stage of our spiritual progression. ( I say this with a great big question mark because we just don't know.)

 

That being said, -here is a spin off question from the OP that I've always had. My understanding is that we pray to God the Father. And yet I've heard the phrase so many times that someone " has a close relationship to Jesus Christ".  How do you have a relationship with someone you don't communicate with? 

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by carlimac

[mikbone]

45 minutes ago, carlimac said:

I bolded the question this creates for me. I thought Jehovah created the earth and all that is on it. What does McConkie meant by "the Creator"?

McConkie is one of my favorite apostles of my youth.  He was a prolific writer and loved to dabble in esoteric doctrine.  

My copy of Mormon Doctrine looks like it went thru war.  And my love of doctrine probably has much to do with reading this text.  Unfortunately the original edition of MD was full of errors.  And the text is now out of print (by design I assume - because it is still widly popular with the membership).

I assume that He ment that Heavenly Father is the Spiritual Creator as opposed to the Physical Creator.  One of my favorite analogies is the comparison of God the Father and Jehovah to an Architect and Carpenter.

[Vort]

32 minutes ago, carlimac said:

As far as whom we pray to, it probably doesn't matter as much as we think it does.

On the one hand, I seriously doubt God is all caught up in whether our sincere prayer is to "Jesus" or "Father". In this vein, it's perhaps worth noting that the Book of Mormon includes people praying to Jesus, and not just in 3 Nephi (e.g. the wife of king Limhi).

On the other hand, we have been carefully and specifically instructed by the Lord's prophets and by the Lord himself to offer our prayers and oblations to the Father. I take this injunction seriously. Those who do not know better are blameless, but those of us who have been taught ought to abide by the teachings we have received.

[mikbone]

46 minutes ago, carlimac said:

As far as whom we pray to, it probably doesn't matter as much as we think it does. I'm sure that honest heartfelt prayers said to Jesus are heard, too, even if it's not doctrinally exactly what we're taught. I would assume that both the Father and Jesus Christ are involved in the affairs of men and women on earth. Perhaps our Heavenly Mother(s??) are, too but we just don't recognize it. We aren't meant to at this stage of our spiritual progression. ( I say this with a great big question mark because we just don't know.)

 

That being said, -here is a spin off question from the OP that I've always had. My understanding is that we pray to God the Father. And yet I've heard the phrase so many times that someone " has a close relationship to Jesus Christ".  How do you have a relationship with someone you don't communicate with? 

 

I agree with Joseph Smith and think that it does matter.  

For example, when I was about 12, I watched The Ten Commandments and for many years I thought of God the Father as the voice within the burning bush...   Over the years As I have continued to read, study, experience life, father, pray, attend the temple my perception of God has changed.

For example when I read Ender’s Game I envisioned an extremely introverted intelligent 6 year old general mastermind.  When I saw the recent movie I was totally disappointed.

I think we can have a close relationship with Jesus Christ because he loves us and through the Holy Ghost and Ordinances we “Witness” him, his life, his teachings, and of course the saving grace of the Atonement.