Whom do we worship?


mikbone
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On 10/24/2018 at 2:44 PM, Vort said:

@zil did not deny anything in the scriptures. Not sure how your exegesis of John 14:13-14 supports the idea of praying to Christ, when that is manifestly not what the scripture says.

Elder McConkie unambiguously taught:

We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost...Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator...Our prayers are addressed to the Father, and to him only.

Notice the subtleties:

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Now I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ. It will seem to them as though I am speaking out against mother love, or Americanism, or the little red schoolhouse. But I am not. There is a fine line here over which true worshipers will not step.

It is true that there may, with propriety, be a special relationship with a wife, with children, with friends, with teachers, with the beasts of the field and the fowls of the sky and the lilies of the valley. But the very moment anyone singles out one member of the Godhead as the almost sole recipient of his devotion, to the exclusion of the others, that is the moment when spiritual instability begins to replace sense and reason.

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Those who truly love the Lord and who worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Spirit, according to the approved patterns, maintain a reverential barrier between themselves and all the members of the Godhead.

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This is all the approved pattern I need:

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D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am...

and

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Ether 4:6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.

9 And at my command the heavens are opened and are shut; and at my word the earth shall shake; and at my command the inhabitants thereof shall pass away, even so as by fire.

10 And he that believeth not my words believeth not my disciples; and if it so be that I do not speak, judge ye; for ye shall know that it is I that speaketh, at the last day.

11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.

12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe methat I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

Nothing subtle about it. Bold, straightforward and precise. Straight from Jesus Christ's own mouth. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. I know these are Jesus Christ's words. He is the Father. They are true. He invites both Gentile and house of Israel to rend the veil of unbelief and know Him. That means know Him personally, not just about Him.  Nobody is exempt--especially members of the church. 

Edited by skalenfehl
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3 hours ago, skalenfehl said:

Nothing subtle about it. Bold, straightforward and precise. Straight from Jesus Christ's own mouth. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. I know these are Jesus Christ's words. He is the Father. They are true. He invites both Gentile and house of Israel to rend the veil of unbelief and know Him. That means know Him personally, not just about Him.  Nobody is exempt--especially members of the church. 

Hey @skalenfehl, I think this is a situation where it is important to remember the oneness of the Father and Son as well as the distinctiveness of these two holy men. It sounds as if you are suggesting that Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father are one and the same in body and all. Am I interpreting your intent correctly?

 

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Can you find any scripture or manual which says our prayers for forgiveness should be addressed to Christ? ..I find nothing but instruction to pray to the Father, including for forgiveness.

.......

Just because Christ pleads on our behalf does not mean we bypass the Father and pray straight to Christ.

 

There are some scriptures in the Book of Mormon where the people prayed directly to Christ.

To save space, only the verses that show Christ being prayed to are shown in the thread below, but it is recommended that you read the whole chapter.  

3 Nephi 19:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/19?lang=eng

16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth.

17 And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray.

18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.

24 And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him; and they did not multiply many words, for it was given unto them what they should pray, and they were filled with desire.

25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof.

26 And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.

30 And when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples; and behold they did pray steadfastly, without ceasing, unto him; and he did smile upon them again; and behold they were white, even as Jesus.

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So in certain times, people prayed to Jesus and Jesus prayed to the Father for those who were praying to Him (Jesus).  

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1 hour ago, SpiritDragon said:

Hey @skalenfehl, I think this is a situation where it is important to remember the oneness of the Father and Son as well as the distinctiveness of these two holy men. It sounds as if you are suggesting that Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father are one and the same in body and all. Am I interpreting your intent correctly?

 

 

Hello, SpiritDragon. No, I am not suggesting that they are one and the same body. They are two distinct, glorified individuals. 

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I know I've shared a lot of information in this topic. I apologize I did not post more concisely my thoughts. It seems that those who have asked me questions have not completely read everything I have shared, which I believe is quite comprehensive. The only other thing I can add to help clarify is the mention of Joseph Smith's King Follet Sermon in which he declared:

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These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible...

We are presented with the idea of two distinct individuals. 

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What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.--https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, who have both gazed into heaven and conversed with Jesus Christ (D&C 76), knew what they were talking about when they along with others in a committee wrote the Lectures on Faith and in the third lecture, taught the correct attributes of a Father and a Son. It is not incorrect to attribute to Jesus Christ the name/title/roll/office/whatever word you choose of Father. He has worked it out and has taken His place while His Father, who is also our Heavenly Father has taken a higher exaltation. Both are Fathers, or if you will, "the Father." Likewise, Abinadi and all other prophets who "knew" God, knew what they were talking about when describing Jesus Christ. To quote Abinadi again:

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Mosiah 15:

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the fleshbecoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

8 And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men—

9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice.

10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?

11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.

Abinadi taught by the Spirit, but King Noah and his priests with the possible exception of Alma, did not understand Abinadi and could not because they did not receive his teaching by the Spirit. Otherwise, they would have repented of their evil and in doing so, they would have also sought to know the Lord, befitting their offices in their small church in the land of Nephi.

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9 hours ago, skalenfehl said:

I know I've shared a lot of information in this topic. I apologize I did not post more concisely my thoughts. It seems that those who have asked me questions have not completely read everything I have shared, which I believe is quite comprehensive. The only other thing I can add to help clarify is the mention of Joseph Smith's King Follet Sermon in which he declared:

Thanks for working to clarify your position. I'll have to go back and read/reread all your posts and see if I can't get a better understanding of your perspective.

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You're welcome. If you missed the link to the pdf I wrote, here are some of the words relative to this topic:

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On The School of the Prophets, Zebedee Coltrin, a president of the Quorum of the Seventy 1835-1837, gives the following account in 1883:

“Brother Zebedee Coltrin said: I believe I am the only living man now in the church who was connected with the School of the Prophets when it was organized in 1833, the year before we went up in Zion's Camp. President Taylor: How many were then connected with the School at that time? Brother Coltrin: When the Word of Wisdom [D&C 89] was first presented by the Prophet Joseph (as he came out of the translating room) and was read to the School, there were twenty out of the twenty-one who used tobacco and they all immediately threw their tobacco and pies into the fire.

There were members as follows: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, William Smith, Frederick G. Williams, Orson Hyde (who had the charge of the school), Zebedee Coltrin, Sylvester Smith, Joseph Smith, Sr., Levi Hancock, Martin Harris, Sidney Rigdon, Newel K. Whitney, Samuel H. Smith, John Murdock, Lyman Johnson and Ezra Thayer.

The salutation as written in the Doctrine and Covenants [D&C 88:136-141] was carried out at that time, and at every meeting, and the washing of feet was attended to, the sacrament was also administered at times when Joseph appointed, after the ancient order; that is, warm bread to break easy was provided and broken into pieces as large as my fist and each person had a glass of wine and sat and ate the bread and drank the wine; and Joseph said that was the way that Jesus and his disciples partook of the bread and wine. And this was the order of the church anciently and until the church went into darkness. Every time we were called together to attend to any business, we came together in the morning about sunrise, fasting and partook of the sacrament each time, and before going to school we washed ourselves and put on clean linen.

At one of these meetings after the organization of the school, (the school being organized_ on the 23rd of January, 1833, when we were all together, Joseph having given instructions, and while engaged in silent prayer, kneeling, with our hands uplifted each one praying in silence, no one whispered above his breath, a personage walked through the room from east to west, and Joseph asked if we saw him. I saw him and suppose the others did and Joseph answered that is Jesus, the Son of God, our elder brother. Afterward Joseph told us to resume our former position in prayer, which we did. Another person came through; he was surrounded as with a flame of fire. He (Brother Coltrin) experienced a sensation that it might destroy the tabernacle as it was of consuming fire of great p. 4 brightness. The Prophet Joseph said this was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I saw Him.

When asked about the kind of clothing the Father had on, Brother Coltrin said: I did not discover his clothing for he was surrounded as with a flame of fire, which was so brilliant that I could not discover anything else but his person. I saw his hands, his legs, his feet, his eyes, nose, mouth, head and body in the shape and form of a perfect man. He sat in a chair as a man would sit in a chair, but this appearance was so grand and overwhelming that it seemed I should melt down in his presence, and the sensation was so powerful that it thrilled through my whole system and I felt it in the marrow of my bones. The Prophet Joseph said: Brethren, now you are prepared to be the apostles of Jesus Christ, for you have seen both the Father and the Son and know that they exist and that they are two separate personages. This appearance occurred about two or three weeks after the opening of the school. After the Father had passed through, Joseph told us to again take our positions in prayer. We did so, and in a very short time he drew our attention and said to us that Brother Reynolds Cahoon was about to leave us, and told us to look at him. He (Brother Cahoon) was on his knees and his arms were extended, his hands and wrists, head, face and neck down to his shoulders were as a piece of amber, clear and transparent, his blood having apparently left his veins. Upon the attention of the brethren being thus called to Brother Cahoon, the change seemed to pass away and Joseph said that in a few minutes more, Brother Cahoon would have left us, but he came to himself again.” (Source: Minutes, Salt Lake City School of the Prophets, October 3, 1883.)

This was the purpose of the School of the Prophets. He defined the role of apostleship. Like Saul of old who became Paul, they had rent the veil and became eye witnesses of God. 

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From this account, it is clear that Sidney Rigdon was present and that he participated in fruits for which the labors of preparation were made. Sidney Rigdon's apostleship was legitimized, having been an eye witness of the Godhead. Not only did he, along with the others become an eye witness of both the Father and the Son, he could testify boldly that they are “two separate personages.” The year prior, in 1832, both Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon were eye witnesses to the world of glory where they conversed with Jesus Christ as recorded in D&C 76:

“11. We, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, being in the Spirit on the sixteenth day of February, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and thirty-two

12. By the power of the Spirit our eyes were opened and our understandings were enlightened, so as to see and understand the things of God—

13. Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning; p. 5

14. Of whom we bear record; and the record which we bear is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Son, whom we saw and with whom we conversed in the heavenly vision...”

Joseph and Sydney were shown in vision concerning the mysteries of kingdoms and glories, which comprise the majority of this section concluding with:

“113. This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114. But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115. Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

116. Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

117. To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves;

118. That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.”

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This vision of glories happened after Joseph and Sidney moved to the John Johnson home in Hiram, Ohio, on September 12, 1831 to prepare texts of Joseph's translation of the Bible and had begun laboring with the Gospel of John. Upon examining John 5:29, they were shown a multifaceted vision beginning with a vision of the Father and the Son in the highest glory. One witness, Philo Dibble, present in the room recalled that the two men sat motionless for about an hour. One would say, "What do I see," and describe it, and the other would say, "I see the same" (Source: Juvenile Instructor 27 [May 15, 1892]:303-304).

Both Joseph and Sidney gazed into heaven for “about an hour.” Furthermore, it is apparent that Joseph did not impart all that he saw in vision, for he later said, "I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them." (Source: TPJS, p. 305). He also said, “Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject.” (Source: TPJS, p. 324)

If one could know more than all that was ever written on the subject by just gazing into heaven five minutes, what kind of knowledge, then, did Joseph and Sidney possess after gazing into heaven “for about an hour?” Certainly more than has ever been written on the subject by students and scholars.

Having set the stage for the creation of the School of the Prophets, the Lectures on Faith were then commissioned for their education.Here is the link if you want to read the entire thing: https://latterdaylamanite.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/lectures-on-faith-my-witness.pdf

 

 

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10 hours ago, Scott said:

3 Nephi 19: 22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.

I think that this is extremely important.  It is OK to pray to Jehovah / Jesus Christ while in his presence.

So people like Joseph Smith (D&C 93), the Brother of Jared, Moroni (Ether 4), etc.  May at times pray directly to Jesus Christ.  Perhaps even those whom are seeking their calling and election...

For the rest of us lowly humans we should probably use the normal technique.  

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Just now, mikbone said:

For the rest of us lowly humans we should probably use the normal technique.  

You do yourself a disservice for God is no respecter of persons. He has invited all men, both Gentile and House of Israel to come unto Him and rend the veil of unbelief. As you are not a heathen, ignorant of the the gospel of Jesus Christ, this means you are also invited. Nobody is exempt.

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8 minutes ago, skalenfehl said:

You do yourself a disservice for God is no respecter of persons. He has invited all men, both Gentile and House of Israel to come unto Him and rend the veil of unbelief. As you are not a heathen, ignorant of the the gospel of Jesus Christ, this means you are also invited. Nobody is exempt.

 

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On 10/25/2018 at 5:32 AM, Anddenex said:

Latter-day Saints believe the melding of early Christian theology with Greek philosophy was a grave error

Just out of interest what are some examples of greek philosophy in early Christian theology. I don't know much about this and I'm curious.

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Latter-day Saints Do Not Accept the Creeds of Post–New Testament Christianity

Scholars have long acknowledged that the view of God held by the earliest Christians changed dramatically over the course of centuries. Early Christian views of God were more personal, more anthropomorphic, and less abstract than those that emerged later from the creeds written over the next several hundred years. The key ideological shift that began in the second century A.D., after the loss of apostolic authority, resulted from a conceptual merger of Christian doctrine with Greek philosophy.3

Latter-day Saints believe the melding of early Christian theology with Greek philosophy was a grave error. Chief among the doctrines lost in this process was the nature of the Godhead. The true nature of God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. As a consequence, Latter-day Saints hold that God the Father is an embodied being, a belief consistent with the attributes ascribed to God by many early Christians.4 This Latter-day Saint belief differs from the post-New Testament creeds.

Whatever the doctrinal differences that exist between the Latter-day Saints and members of other Christian religions, the roles Latter-day Saints ascribe to members of the Godhead largely correspond with the views of others in the Christian world. Latter-day Saints believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving, and they pray to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. They acknowledge the Father as the ultimate object of their worship, the Son as Lord and Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit as the messenger and revealer of the Father and the Son. In short, Latter-day Saints do not accept the post–New Testament creeds yet rely deeply on each member of the Godhead in their daily religious devotion and worship, as did the early Christians.

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/christians?lang=eng

  1. See, for example, Roger E. Olson, The Story of Christian Theology: Twenty Centuries of Tradition and Reform (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 1999); D. Jeffrey Bingham, ed., The Routledge Companion to Early Christian Thought (London: Routledge, 2010); Daniel W. Graham and James L. Siebach, “The Introduction of Philosophy into Early Christianity,” in Noel B. Reynolds, ed., Early Christians in Disarray: Contemporary LDS Perspectives on the Christian Apostasy (Provo, UT: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, Brigham Young University Press, 2005), 205–37.

 

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On 10/24/2018 at 2:59 PM, Morgaine said:

So in John 14:13-14, what do you think Jesus is referring to? When you ask for something in Jesus' name, aren't you praying to/addressing Jesus?

Sorry if someone has already addressed this:

Look in the Bible Dictionary under "Prayer":

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We pray in Christ’s name when our mind is the mind of Christ, and our wishes the wishes of Christ—when His words abide in us (John 15:7). We then ask for things it is possible for God to grant. Many prayers remain unanswered because they are not in Christ’s name at all; they in no way represent His mind but spring out of the selfishness of man’s heart.

 

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On 10/24/2018 at 4:49 PM, mikbone said:

So, should we think of Jesus Christ as more of a brother or a father???

Both.

1) We think of Father and Son as one.  So, we can think of either in the same manner as far as our relationship to them.

2) When we take upon ourselves His name (Jesus Christ) then we come under His stewardship.  His Atonement has power over us.  HE has power over us and provides the guidance along the path we are to tread throughout all eternity.  That sounds like a father to me.

Whether literal or figurative, the relationship is what you were asking about, so that is what I was addressing.

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On 10/25/2018 at 2:29 PM, Vort said:

Indeed. In the Garden, our first parents are portrayed as speaking directly with the Father. In the post-Garden-exile portion of the endowment presentation, there is exactly one time they are portrayed in prayer—praying directly to the Father. No exceptions.

Actually, there are two... Sort of...

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On 10/27/2018 at 5:40 PM, Highlander said:

Just out of interest what are some examples of greek philosophy in early Christian theology. I don't know much about this and I'm curious.

A couple of obvious ones:

  • The material world is inherently corrupt. God is not corrupt. Therefore, God is immaterial.
  • God is wholly other; he is not like us. We are his creation, nothing beyond that.
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