carlimac

More struggles with Direction from stake President

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12 hours ago, carlimac said:

Same from our SP. No music in Sacrament meeting unless it's in the hymnbook. I look at this as missing out on the joy of finding truth and beauty everywhere we go- not just within the confines of the LDS hymnbook, lesson manuals, scriptures, etc. There are some wonderfully talented musicians who have written religious music that would inspire and lift our souls. But we aren't allowed to sing or share it in our church. Here's something really ironic though. We are participating in an interfaith program this Sunday and a song in our Primary songbook is being sung in the Catholic church by the interfaith choir. 

But this is not Sacrament Meeting.  It’s the Ward Christmas Party!

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On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 1:26 PM, anatess2 said:

I should've thought to ask you guys to help me come up with a program!!!

Help?

I had an idea come to mind. 10 hymns that are given a twist! Either you could do a 'jazz' theme or do each song a different genre (jazz, country, bluegrass, etc). I think it could be kinda fun and not the same-old, same-old. 

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11 hours ago, Manners Matter said:

I had an idea come to mind. 10 hymns that are given a twist! Either you could do a 'jazz' theme or do each song a different genre (jazz, country, bluegrass, etc). I think it could be kinda fun and not the same-old, same-old. 

So I came up with 5 "twists to the hymn".  No can do.  So, we're now at 3 regular hymns and 1 medley of hymns.  It's gonna be boring and my name is tied to it.

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It sounds to me like he doesn't even see the mark.... it's like he's completely missing the mark.... Jesus Christ..... 2 Laws.....Love God FIRST.....Love your neighbor as yourself.... where does all this other stuff come from? It's legalistic and suffocates faith... law of men.... I'm not hearing the law according to God in your story. Where is the love in your stake president's rigidity?

 

Blessings

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19 hours ago, Word Chasing said:

It sounds to me like he doesn't even see the mark.... it's like he's completely missing the mark.... Jesus Christ..... 2 Laws.....Love God FIRST.....Love your neighbor as yourself.... where does all this other stuff come from? It's legalistic and suffocates faith... law of men.... I'm not hearing the law according to God in your story. Where is the love in your stake president's rigidity?

 

Blessings

I really don't know. 

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All I can say is "WOW"  no coed swimming?  swimming pools are the devils playground?  must be cleaned shaving for a temple recommend?  just because someone is a SP, does not mean they are going to do everything by the book.  bishops and others included.  I have seen this first hand. temple recommends are not a personal directive, there are specific questions and worthiness to maintain, clean shaven face is NOT one of them.  this has nothing to do with sustaining authority.  this has a lot to do with abuse of authority.  our ward has trunk N treat every year, our ward has ward swimming parties. oh, guess what, in a swimming pool. and primary aged kids swam to.  both boys and girls.  I see here nothing but a lot of abuse of power. we had bishop once who was very abusive.  he had told women while "IN" the temple how over weight they were and that they needed loose weight.  he was bishop when my father passed away, and did everything he could to try and make my mother sit through two funeral services, because he didn't think it was right that the church members wasn't getting a private service before members of the family.  this list goes on and on.  it took a very long time to forgive this man for the things he has said and done.  but still, he was not released for long time.  so yes, I see some points of this SP are clear, like spa nights and such.  activities for the youth should be Christ centered. we may sustain our leaders, but this does not mean they are perfect leaders.  perhaps they to must learn.  this is in no way meaning to slam on anyone or anything.  I have a beard and long hair and a temple recommend. so there you have it.  abuse of power does not make a bad person.  

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On 11/17/2018 at 7:12 AM, anatess2 said:

But this is not Sacrament Meeting.  It’s the Ward Christmas Party!

Is this an actual 'Christmas Party' or a 'Ward Christmas Breakfast'?

It seems like the traditional Ward Christmas Party with Christmas dinner is a dying thing.

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16 hours ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

Is this an actual 'Christmas Party' or a 'Ward Christmas Breakfast'?

It seems like the traditional Ward Christmas Party with Christmas dinner is a dying thing.

Ward Christmas party dinner.  We have it every year.

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On 11/15/2018 at 9:30 PM, BJ64 said:

Several members of bishoprics and other leadership callings in our stake have beards. I don’t think anyone thinks anything of it. Beards are very common these days. 

I counted in sacrament meeting today. There were 22 men with beards. I don’t know what percent that was.

That number included a councilor in the bishopric, the ward clerk, two assistant clerks, two members of the elders quorum presidency, two members of the Sunday school presidency and two primary teachers.

In priesthood meeting exactly one third of the men in attendance had beards. 

 

 

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On 12/2/2018 at 2:51 PM, Jedi_Nephite said:

Is this an actual 'Christmas Party' or a 'Ward Christmas Breakfast'?

It seems like the traditional Ward Christmas Party with Christmas dinner is a dying thing.

Our ward has Christmas Dinners. This year we had baked potatoes, ham, lettuce salad, rolls and cheesecake. All of the Christmas songs we sang were from the hymn book. It was one of the best ward Christmas parties in my memory. 

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19 hours ago, BJ64 said:

Our ward has Christmas Dinners. This year we had baked potatoes, ham, lettuce salad, rolls and cheesecake. All of the Christmas songs we sang were from the hymn book. It was one of the best ward Christmas parties in my memory. 

That would be as simple a ward Christmas Dinner as you can get in my ward.

Last year we had a lip sync Christmas battle with the dinner.  It's patterned after that TV show.  You form a group, choose a Christmas song, and lip sync to it.  My kids were in several groups because the young men formed a group, then my sons formed another group with their friends (some non-members), and then we had a group as a family.  The bishopric formed their group and they won the thing, they were so good... they were dressed as farmers with their straw hats and suspenders synching to a honky-tonk Christmas song.  The young men did a great job complete with a couch and a fireplace (made of cardboard) to set up the stage.  I thought they'd win.

A few years ago we had a Christmas Play (Christmas Hang-ups), with a live band.  We've had a horn quartet with a sing-along.  We've had a live Nativity.  We've had a Christmas around the World where it wasn't a formal sit-down dinner, rather, there were several booths from different countries that had exhibits of their Christmas tradition and food and people went around the booths filling their plates.  We've had the Women of Christmas where we had several women dressed as a woman during the birth of Christ telling us about their experience on that first Christmas - we had Mary, Elizabeth, a shepherd's wife, etc.

Halloween and Christmas are 2 of our well-attended activities in our ward where we have tons of non-members attend.

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We had our ward Christmas party last Saturday at the same location we've been holding it for the last several years. The weather was perfect and I think everybody had a really good time. Lots of footballs being thrown around and kicked, a bit of swimming, and lots of lieing around on rugs or in folding chairs just chatting and eating. No hymn singing at all. In fact, I suspect if anybody had tried any hymn singing, they would have received a few odd looks. 

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46 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

We had our ward Christmas party last Saturday at the same location we've been holding it for the last several years. The weather was perfect and I think everybody had a really good time. Lots of footballs being thrown around and kicked, a bit of swimming, and lots of lieing around on rugs or in folding chairs just chatting and eating. No hymn singing at all. In fact, I suspect if anybody had tried any hymn singing, they would have received a few odd looks. 

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Welcome to Australia, where winter is summer and summer is winter.

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

That would be as simple a ward Christmas Dinner as you can get in my ward.

Last year we had a lip sync Christmas battle with the dinner.  It's patterned after that TV show.  You form a group, choose a Christmas song, and lip sync to it.  My kids were in several groups because the young men formed a group, then my sons formed another group with their friends (some non-members), and then we had a group as a family.  The bishopric formed their group and they won the thing, they were so good... they were dressed as farmers with their straw hats and suspenders synching to a honky-tonk Christmas song.  The young men did a great job complete with a couch and a fireplace (made of cardboard) to set up the stage.  I thought they'd win.

A few years ago we had a Christmas Play (Christmas Hang-ups), with a live band.  We've had a horn quartet with a sing-along.  We've had a live Nativity.  We've had a Christmas around the World where it wasn't a formal sit-down dinner, rather, there were several booths from different countries that had exhibits of their Christmas tradition and food and people went around the booths filling their plates.  We've had the Women of Christmas where we had several women dressed as a woman during the birth of Christ telling us about their experience on that first Christmas - we had Mary, Elizabeth, a shepherd's wife, etc.

Halloween and Christmas are 2 of our well-attended activities in our ward where we have tons of non-members attend.

I think the reason I liked it so well is because it was simple. We ate, then the Christmas story was read from Luke intermixed with singing Christmas hymns. 

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8 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I think the reason I liked it so well is because it was simple. We ate, then the Christmas story was read from Luke intermixed with singing Christmas hymns. 

Which is what we do as a family at our home every Sunday of Advent (the 4 Sundays before Christmas Day) and on Christmas Eve with the rest of the "clan".  It's great for that setting.  It's boring when you got 150 people at a festivity.  But, that's just my opinion.  Which is exactly why it's better not to have something you would do as a family in a festivity setting because you have 150 people with differing tastes.  So a festivity is good if it is festive because it's what 150 people of different tastes expect.

Edited by anatess2

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On 10/26/2018 at 12:06 PM, carlimac said:

"We have been told in the scriptures and by our church leaders to "not go beyond the mark." ...  He thinks it means we should NOT be doing anything at all beyond enriching our knowledge and "relationship" with our Savior. So last night (2nd time I've heard him say this in the last month) he said that ALL our mutual activities should be centered around Christ.  This isn't a bad thing except , I quote, " all these things that we keep doing like having spa nights and playing board games are a waste of time. They are going beyond the mark of learning about Christ." OK this kind of jars me because-1)  I think he's interpreting this saying in his own way and  2) I feel hes' really out of touch with what the youth, and especially the young women need.  

He's known to be a very controlling person, extremely disciplined AND only has one child- a 13 yr old daughter. He is very invested in what she does at every activity ( they are in our ward.) ...

Thoughts?

Going beyond the mark means going beyond what we have been given both in the scriptures and by the prophets. Since he is going beyond their counsel, he is a hypocrite, and I can say that because he's not my stake president! The church is based on revelation, and each to his own stewardship. A bishop cannot receive revelation for the stake, nor can the stake president receive revelation beyond his own calling. If it were so, some stakes would have board games and others not. 

The stake president can give counsel regarding what has been taught. The brethren have even stated we should not use playing cards, though I'm unsure what the current thinking is. For recreation, I know of no counsel that's been given about board games. The whole idea behind what the Lord wants us to accomplish is to get to a position where we won't need counsel. Currently, a father can issue counsel for his family. A bishop can give counsel that's in accordance to what the brethren say. Going further or less is missing the mark. No one should ever badmouth an ordained leader, but whether he or she seeks to obey the counsel is their own affair. Clearly, the First Presidency has not issued the counsel the stake president is teaching. If he ever determined to ordain a cat or to declare Saturday the sabbath, he would be extending his reach. The church has a chain of command, so if you aren't happy with counsel that affects you in a way you feel is not appropriate, contact the regional representative. 

 

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12 hours ago, Stargater53 said:

If it were so, some stakes would have board games and others not. 

The brethren have even stated we should not use playing cards, though I'm unsure what the current thinking is. For recreation, I know of no counsel that's been given about board games.

This portion of your statement confused me at first, then I saw what you were saying...but...

Getting some quotes from here (which is admittedly a blog spot and NOT a Church site...so who knows about the accuracy..

Blogspot blog about Facecards

Quote

Burn up playing cards if you have any. 

President Brigham Young
 

But why?

More directly, what reasonings would they be offended at?

Quote

While a simple game of cards in itself may be harmless, it is a fact that by immoderate repetition it ends in an infatuation for chance schemes, in habits of excess, in waste of precious time, in dulling and stupor of the mind, and in the complete destruction of religious feeling. These are serious results, evils that should and must be avoided by the Latter-day Saints. Then again, there is the grave danger that lurks in persistent card playing, which begets the spirit of gambling, of speculation and that awakens the dangerous desire to get something for nothing.

Joseph F. Smith

Are boardgames different in these aspects than card games?

Quote

We hope faithful Latter-day Saints will not use the playing cards which are used for gambling, either with or without the gambling. As for the gambling, in connection with horse racing or games or sports, we firmly discourage such things

Spencer W. Kimball

It seems that the evils are more focused on that which is behind gambling, but the cards themselves are rather harmless.  However, it is that these cards may be that also considered a waste of time which dulls the mind and does not focus on religion.

and then we have this Gem, as Joseph F. Smith seems particularly set against games of chance and cards

Quote

Let all chance games be banished from our families.

Joseph F. Smith
 

Does that monopoly game have some dice?  I think the statements would apply equally to any game that had dice or something similar to a roulette wheel as well.

Now, as someone who loves the game of Bridge, what fall back do I have?  Not much, but there is this statement...

Quote

It must be added that relaxation from the regular duties of the day is desirable and necessary for human well-being. Wholesome games of recreation are advocated by all right-minded people. Moreover, the objections [to card playing] are not directed against the many and various card games on the market not employing the usual "playing cards." Most of these furnish innocent and wholesome recreation, and many are really instructive. It is true that they may be played to excess, but in fact it seldom happens. This is true even when such cards are used in games imitating those with 'playing cards.' It is true that such cards may be used for gambling purposes, but in fact it is almost never done. The pall of evil seems to rest upon the 'playing cards' handed down to us from antiquity

John A. Widtsoe

So it indicates as long as it is a wholesome game of recreation, but to relax and as with many things, not to be used in excess (moderation in all things).  That last quote is just me using it to justify my enjoyment of Bridge or other games we have played as a family (including boardgames and such).

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On 12/13/2018 at 8:02 AM, JohnsonJones said:

This portion of your statement confused me at first, then I saw what you were saying...but...

Getting some quotes from here (which is admittedly a blog spot and NOT a Church site...so who knows about the accuracy..

Blogspot blog about Facecards

But why?

More directly, what reasonings would they be offended at?

Are boardgames different in these aspects than card games?

It seems that the evils are more focused on that which is behind gambling, but the cards themselves are rather harmless.  However, it is that these cards may be that also considered a waste of time which dulls the mind and does not focus on religion.

and then we have this Gem, as Joseph F. Smith seems particularly set against games of chance and cards

Does that monopoly game have some dice?  I think the statements would apply equally to any game that had dice or something similar to a roulette wheel as well.

Now, as someone who loves the game of Bridge, what fall back do I have?  Not much, but there is this statement...

So it indicates as long as it is a wholesome game of recreation, but to relax and as with many things, not to be used in excess (moderation in all things).  That last quote is just me using it to justify my enjoyment of Bridge or other games we have played as a family (including boardgames and such).

Maybe I'm showing my age, but it really wasn't that long ago that staying away from face cards was still brought up in church and seminary. It wasn't just back in Joseph F. Smith's time; but staying away from face cards was a thing until at least the 1980's.  When I was in seminary some of the evils we were supposed to stay away from were face cards, Dungeons and Dragons, any other roll playing games, and rock music.

LDS.org doesn't say that much, but there are a few articles:

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1984/10/q-and-a-questions-and-answers/how-should-i-feel-about-playing-cards?lang=eng

Holyfetch.com is one of my favorite non-official church sites as well and has some quotes, sources, and insights:

http://holyfetch.com/mormons-face-cards/

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13 hours ago, Scott said:

Maybe I'm showing my age, but it really wasn't that long ago that staying away from face cards was still brought up in church and seminary. It wasn't just back in Joseph F. Smith's time; but staying away from face cards was a thing until at least the 1980's.  When I was in seminary some of the evils we were supposed to stay away from were face cards, Dungeons and Dragons, any other roll playing games, and rock music.

LDS.org doesn't say that much, but there are a few articles:

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1984/10/q-and-a-questions-and-answers/how-should-i-feel-about-playing-cards?lang=eng

Holyfetch.com is one of my favorite non-official church sites as well and has some quotes, sources, and insights:

http://holyfetch.com/mormons-face-cards/

It was something discouraged when I was younger too.  The way you phrased it about discretionary board game playing was a confusing statement until I sort of figured out what you were saying. 

So, I found several quotes that were against it and then showed my own personal bias because I do enjoy to play Bridge (if one can round up 3 others that also know how to play and enjoy it as well).

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See if this sounds familiar... Our former Stake President had made it a request/directive to not have missionary open houses. At the time I was in a Bishopric and knew exactly where he was coming from. (It is in the leadership guidelines) 

I was perfectly okay with this. However days before my son's departure, the Bishop from another Ward asked  in passing when was the open house, That Bishop became are present Stake President.

My philosophy gained from talks, readings, and discussions is that Stake Presidents are picked by the Lord. They come in all sizes, shapes, and backgrounds. If they do something seriously wrong, I trust the Lord to release him. Questioning leadership is not a sin, murmuring against it is. I try not to murmur, I don't look good in leprosy.

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Today was the first day of our new 2 hour block Sunday meetings, it went by fast. It was also the first Sunday back in my ward after attending another ward for 1 yr due to my work schedule.

The saying "less church and more home" is pretty much the feeling I felt. In Sunday school a member mentioned that we need to take ownership of our learning and not rely on the teacher to teach us (less church and more home), he even suggested hypothetically that maybe one day we will not be meeting at chapels anymore and we need to continue our spiritual growth on our own in our own homes.

After hearing the OPs post about the stickler Stake President, its an all too familiar story of why members go inactive. After my wife left the church 6 yrs ago (because of drama with other members) I was very offended by her decision and took on the role of preacher trying to dictate to her what she is doing is wrong, after a few years of living with this mindset it was evident that there was no harmony in our home, the spirit could not dwell. I have slowly come around and learned to have compassion and accept her for who she is...a child of God, im still learning and growing in this regard but it was a little to late, we divorced a year ago but still co-exist as roommates raising our children, we still function as our same ol family unit as we feel it is important for our kids sake. Things are going good and as I focus on my own personal spirituality and being less judgemental toward others im a more tolerable person to be around in our home, the kids love me but they do not love it when I force them to go to church. Their experiences at church is that there is not enough friends in their classes, the youth program is small, and the teachers are boring. I dont blame them and Im glad that President Nelson is giving me more tools and more opportunities to teach them in my own home.

My personal opinion about "less church and more home" is to spend less time with members/leaders you cant tolerate and more time with the people that matter most, your family, friends and Jesus Christ.

 

 

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On 12/14/2018 at 10:38 PM, Scott said:

Maybe I'm showing my age, but it really wasn't that long ago that staying away from face cards was still brought up in church and seminary. It wasn't just back in Joseph F. Smith's time; but staying away from face cards was a thing until at least the 1980's.  When I was in seminary some of the evils we were supposed to stay away from were face cards, Dungeons and Dragons, any other roll playing games, and rock music.

LDS.org doesn't say that much, but there are a few articles:

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1984/10/q-and-a-questions-and-answers/how-should-i-feel-about-playing-cards?lang=eng

Holyfetch.com is one of my favorite non-official church sites as well and has some quotes, sources, and insights:

http://holyfetch.com/mormons-face-cards/

Dungeons & Dragons was evil? Really? I had assumed that D &D had many opportunities for rescuing the frail and for team building for the greater good. Am 😮 

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