Any guesses on the grand things?


mikbone
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From Neal A Maxwell’s April 2001 conference talk

“But Christ’s unique submissiveness has always been in place. Indeed, He has “suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning” (3 Ne. 11:11), keenly observing His Father all the while: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise” (John 5:19). This verse carries intimations of grand things--beyond the beyond.”

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19 hours ago, mikbone said:

From Neal A Maxwell’s April 2001 conference talk

“But Christ’s unique submissiveness has always been in place. Indeed, He has “suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning” (3 Ne. 11:11), keenly observing His Father all the while: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise” (John 5:19). This verse carries intimations of grand things--beyond the beyond.”

Well, at the risk of sounding condescending, I think it's pretty obvious.

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6 minutes ago, skalenfehl said:

Mikbone, have you read the King Follet Sermon?

Yes, many times.

I refuse to call it the King Follett Discourse or even worse, the KFD.

I refer to it as Joseph Smith’s final general conference talk of April 7, 1844.

The other title is a travesty.  Even worse then calling Latter-Day Saints Mormons.

/gasp

I could go on and on about the address, maybe another time... 

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21 hours ago, mikbone said:

From Neal A Maxwell’s April 2001 conference talk

“But Christ’s unique submissiveness has always been in place. Indeed, He has “suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning” (3 Ne. 11:11), keenly observing His Father all the while: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise” (John 5:19). This verse carries intimations of grand things--beyond the beyond.”

I think the "intimations" are quickly revealed and explained in the several verses that follow, and pertain to the subject of the talk (hope in the Lord’s Atonement). To pick out a few:

“the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these [such as healing the sick, defying the hedges about the law]

“the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them”

“even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.”

“ the Father …hath committed all judgment unto the Son”

“all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father”

“He that heareth [Jesus’] word, and believeth on him that sent [him, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation”

“the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” – this is beyond the “beyond” – past the end of mortality’s borders.

“as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.”

“the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

“[Jesus had] greater witness than that of John”

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2 hours ago, mikbone said:
3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Well, at the risk of sounding condescending, I think it's pretty obvious.

 Please put me out of my misery!

Heavenly Father was the savior of his “round of creation”.

With this knowledge there tends to trigger a domino effect of questions as you think about it more.

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39 minutes ago, Fether said:

Heavenly Father was the savior of his “round of creation”.

With this knowledge there tends to trigger a domino effect of questions as you think about it more.

I agree.  I found it interesting recently when going over this talk that Neal A. Maxwell appears to have similar perception.  

Beyond the Beyond seems to indicate something that will occur in the far distant future in our eternal progression

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18 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I agree.  I found it interesting recently when going over this talk that Neal A. Maxwell appears to have similar perception.  

Beyond the Beyond seems to indicate something that will occur in the far distant future in our eternal progression

It is definitely more than a “perception”. Joseph Smith Speaks Of it in the King Follet Discourse and so does Truman G Madsen in his Joseph Smith Lectures.

Im sure there is a plethora of speculations we can make on the future. And perhaps individuals can be taught by the spirit what is in the future, but nothing official and worthy to teach has been said on that topic yet.

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3 hours ago, Fether said:

Heavenly Father was the savior of his “round of creation”.

With this knowledge there tends to trigger a domino effect of questions as you think about it more.

I think we can all be saviors on Mount Zion and be as Christ through grace. We can choose to sacrifice and consecrate ourselves to our maximum capacity through selfless extremity and be strengthened by angels in our sphere, in the same way that He was tested and strengthened in His. It doesn't matter that we are not actual Atoning Christs, we just have to be as intent as He was in meeting the Father's expectations. This is the essentiality of what I believe He saw His Father do, and was not necessarily a lock-step copy though some assert that He was.

Seth was in the express likeness of Adam, and seemed to be like unto his father in all things, distinguishable only by age. Yet he did not have a wife named Eve, nor was he the first man, nor did he partake of the forbidden fruit or become a great prophet like Adam was (some even say he was the great Melchizedek, whose priesthood was without beginning of days or end of years, which is after the order of the Son, or in the likeness of "the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years..."). His role was different from his father Adam's, and we are all as Adam and Eve.

Edited by CV75
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John 5:19  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

 

The following commentary is from Joseph Smith’s farwell General Conference address.

“the scriptures inform us that Jesus said, ‘as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power’, to do what? Why what the Father did; the answer is obvious, in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? if you do not believe it, you do not believe the bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then is eternal life— to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be Kings and Priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by going from one small capacity to a great one, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation... “


In my mind, the Prophet is presenting some very important concepts:

1) Jesus Christ was empowered by the Father’s example to both atone and resurrect.

2) God the Father had previously served as a Savior.

3) Jehovah witnessed the Father’s atonement.

4)  We have so much more to learn and do in the hereafter.

 

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1 hour ago, mikbone said:

John 5:19  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

 

The following commentary is from Joseph Smith’s farwell General Conference address.

“the scriptures inform us that Jesus said, ‘as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power’, to do what? Why what the Father did; the answer is obvious, in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? if you do not believe it, you do not believe the bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then is eternal life— to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be Kings and Priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by going from one small capacity to a great one, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation... “


In my mind, the Prophet is presenting some very important concepts:

1) Jesus Christ was empowered by the Father’s example to both atone and resurrect.

2) God the Father had previously served as a Savior.

3) Jehovah witnessed the Father’s atonement.

4)  We have so much more to learn and do in the hereafter.

 

I think it is "beyond" those four points, as Elder Maxwell put it. "Beyond the beyond" means we continue to learn how to become like God, and become gods ourselves, beyond this world and even beyond the resurrection. We learn to lay our life down through consecration and take it up again through Christ (whosoever shall lose his life for Jesus’ sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.). The Father had to learn the same lessons in His time and the bounds of His habitation (Acts 17:26), Jesus in His, and us in ours. We are literally joint-heirs with Christ when we do with what we have to the extent He did with what He had.

I think our general teaching is that we knew the Father in our premortal estate, and He showed us how He became God, including what to expect for our own mortal experience and progression, which includes laying down our lives, being saviors in our own right, and taking our lives up again, or "finding" them (as Matthew 16:25 puts it) through the Atonement of Christ.

The Father certainly gave Jesus the keys of atonement, resurrection, judgement and exaltation, and at some point, we can expect to have them given to us also. And we can say as Jesus, we only do what we have seen the Father do: we can already say that now, through faith in the plan of salvation as the scriptures and the Church teaches it and through faith in Christ’s personal representation of the Father through precept and example.

As far as #2 and #3, a plain reading is that the Father may not have been a savior any more than we are asked to be, and that He atoned no more than we do. The common process for all, and the main point of the discourse / address, is of “going from one small capacity to a great one, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation…” no matter who we are or what we have to work with.

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Do we witness Jehovah's atonement?

3 Nephi 27:21  Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

 

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12 hours ago, mikbone said:

Do we witness Jehovah's atonement?

3 Nephi 27:21  Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

Absolutely. We witness Jehovah (in His mortal tabernacle as Jesus Christ) atone, and we witness His atonement in many ways here in the flesh, especially by doing for others (both the living and the dead) what they cannot possibly do for themselves.

We saw the Father’s example of this in our pre-mortal estate, where we were instructed on how to progress and Jesus’ role in that in the Grand Council. The Father taught us how he became God and we wanted to be like Him. In that way we do the same things we saw the Father do by following Jesus' perfect example. We strive to be perfect with the wherewithal we possess, receiving Christ's grace to make up the difference.

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Something interesting is that we all can be Saviors in Mount Zion.

We must be perfect (at least in some ways) to get a Temple Recommend.  In this, once we have such a Temple Recommend and go to the Temple, we are acting in proxy for the ordinances which others cannot do themselves.

In this role, we take on the mantle of a Savior (though not the same thing he did obviously) in that we perform things for others that they themselves cannot perform.  In this we justify the demands of justice (that the ordinance MUST be done) while at the same time enabling mercy (they cannot do these things themselves, even if they want, but as it is done by proxy, they are able to attain the rewards thereof if they accept them).

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30 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

How are you defining "witnessed"?

John 5:19  The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do

Somehow, Jehovah was able to see, witness, experience, and possibly even partake of Heavenly Father's Atonement.

Jehovah is exceptional.  There is something about his character that is different than the remainder of Heavenly Father's spirit children.

Jehovah is the Firstborn - His spirit predates our spirits.  And perhaps by a significant amount.  Jehovah likely had an intense training program that we did not experience.

Jehovah is the Only Begotten -  When we are baptized we are begotten of Jesus Christ.  I believe that Jehovah is the Only Begotten, for more than the events culminating with his birth at Bethlehem.  Jehovah most probably made covenants with Elohim that made him special and thus the Only Begotten.  

 

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1 hour ago, mikbone said:

John 5:19  The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do

Somehow, Jehovah was able to see, witness, experience, and possibly even partake of Heavenly Father's Atonement.

Jehovah is exceptional.  There is something about his character that is different than the remainder of Heavenly Father's spirit children.

Jehovah is the Firstborn - His spirit predates our spirits.  And perhaps by a significant amount.  Jehovah likely had an intense training program that we did not experience.

Jehovah is the Only Begotten -  When we are baptized we are begotten of Jesus Christ.  I believe that Jehovah is the Only Begotten, for more than the events culminating with his birth at Bethlehem.  Jehovah most probably made covenants with Elohim that made him special and thus the Only Begotten.  

 

Exactly what do you mean by Heavenly Father's atonement, and Jehovah (Jesus Christ) witnessing it?

It sometimes comes across as Our Heavenly Father having been a Jehovah and a Jesus Christ as part of His eternal progression, carrying out in His mortal estate the exact same mission that the Jesus Christ of our world carries out in ours, and that Jehoval witnessed this from some vantage point prior to Our Heavenly Father having us as spirit children. Some people read the King Follett Discourse / "Joseph Smith’s final general conference talk of April 7, 1844" in this way. While I understand such an interpretation, I don't think the record we have explicitly spells it out that way.

John 5:19 is about healing on the sabbath and like expressions of divine love (as opposed to Pharisaical obedience to hedges about the law), something the Father does (and had been doing up until the time of this conversation), something Jesus did in demonstrating His fulfillment of the law, and we are asked to do.

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2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Exactly what do you mean by Heavenly Father's atonement, and Jehovah (Jesus Christ) witnessing it?

It sometimes comes across as Our Heavenly Father having been a Jehovah and a Jesus Christ as part of His eternal progression, carrying out in His mortal estate the exact same mission that the Jesus Christ of our world carries out in ours, and that Jehoval witnessed this from some vantage point prior to Our Heavenly Father having us as spirit children. Some people read the King Follett Discourse / "Joseph Smith’s final general conference talk of April 7, 1844" in this way. While I understand such an interpretation, I don't think the record we have explicitly spells it out that way.

John 5:19 is about healing on the sabbath and like expressions of divine love (as opposed to Pharisaical obedience to hedges about the law), something the Father does (and had been doing up until the time of this conversation), something Jesus did in demonstrating His fulfillment of the law, and we are asked to do.

Joseph Smith's final General Conference talk is an absolute masterpiece.  I love the address and have studied it at length.  Even going so far as to devote a chapter to it in a book that I have attempted to write.  

This is Truman G. Madsen's commentary for the address

Quote

The King Follett Discourse, for example, which until now has seemed unprecedented, is here shown to be the outcome of earlier teachings. Its brilliance and stature emerge from its combining strands of prior insights of the Prophet into one majestic, comprehensive statement. 

The following is commentary from Ehat and Cook's, The Words of Joseph Smith
 

Quote

 

Traditionally considered the Prophet's greatest sermon, the King Follett discourse was delivered at a time when both anti-Mormon and apostate sentiment was intensifying. "Accusations were repeatedly being made," notes B. H. Roberts, "that President Smith was a fallen prophet." On this occasion he coolly claimed that this single discourse would vindicate his prophetic calling. Although the sermon contains no new doctrine, never before had Joseph Smith so thoroughly, eloquently, and with such power presented what by now had become the very life-blood of Mormon theology. B. H. Roberts added that "The Prophet lived his life in a crescendo. From small beginnings, it rose in breadth and power as he neared its close. As a teacher he reached the climax of his career in this discourse (Teachings, pp. 355-56). Joseph Fielding, one who knew all that the dissenters knew of the Prophet's private teachings, including plural marriage, the endowment, and the Council of Fifty, had "evidence enough [from the discourse] that Joseph [was] not fallen." So affected was he by this sermon that he asserted "any one that could not see in him the Spirit of Inspiration of God must be dark. They might have known that he was not a fallen Prophet even if they thought he was fallen."

 

In the address, Joseph Smith does not use any scriptural reference from the D&C or the Book of Mormon.  I personally believe that Sidney Rigdon challenged the Prophet to only use New Testament scriptures.  And within the address Joseph never quotes a single scripture but it is obvious that he used multiple, see the following (John 5:19, Philippians 2:12, John 10:17-18, and Revelations 3:21).  The following statement is from the address and is directed at none other than Sidney Rigdon.  

Quote

I will show it from the Bible. I wish I were in a suitable place to tell it. I wish I had the trump of an archangel. If I had the privilege, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. The scriptures inform us (Mark it, Brother Rigdon) 

Sidney Rigdon had had a falling out at this time btw...

Quote

The Prophet Joseph essentially lost confidence in Elder Rigdon’s leadership, as evidenced by the Prophet’s desire as early as 1843 not to have him as a counselor. After Hyrum pleaded in Elder Rigdon’s behalf and the Church sustained him, Joseph responded, “I have thrown him off my shoulders, and you have put him on me. … You may carry him, but I will not.”

You may be correct that John 5:19 has the superficial intent to discuss healing on the sabbath as you have mentioned, but when Joseph Smith read the verse with the Spirit of Prophecy he received a different understanding.  The fact that John 5:19 is constantly quoted in current General Conferences gives credence to Joseph Smith's interpretation.  

 

First off - we are well into the realm of esoteric doctrine so take the following with a grain of salt.

There are multiple ways to look at the Big Picture.

1) Elohim is the one Eternal Father and there are none other above him.  He is God and has always been God.  (This is a belief of some LDS - I dont like it at all).

2) Jehovah is the only Savior.  Jesus Christ's Atonement is Eternal and thus works backwards and forwards in time.  (Thus in the future, if perhaps Abraham rises to the level of God and starts to produce spirit children and those spirits embark upon a mortal probation, their salvation as well will depend upon Jesus Christ).  Bruce R. McConkie seems to champion this theory - I also dislike it greatly.

3) The Eternal Round concept.  There is a process that continues to repeat over and over.  Within this plan the same roles continue to be played by different participants.  Thus Elohim had a Father and He learned how to become a  God by observing and following our Heavenly Grandfather...  A variation of this process is the one that I recognize.  It not only explains much of Joseph Smith's observations and teachings, it gives me great hope.

 

 

Many LDS believe that we will have the potential to eventually become as God is.  But when you get down to the How, it becomes cloudy.

If you are eventually able to create spirit children, do you think they will need to go through a mortal probationary state.  And if so do you think that they will look to Jesus Christ for their salvation or to your spiritual firstborn?  

 

It spawns many questions.  

I like Joseph Smith's take on it.  

 

sorry about the length

 

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1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Joseph Smith's final General Conference talk is an absolute masterpiece.  I love the address and have studied it at length.  Even going so far as to devote a chapter to it in a book that I have attempted to write.  

This is Truman G. Madsen's commentary for the address

The following is commentary from Ehat and Cook's, The Words of Joseph Smith

In the address, Joseph Smith does not use any scriptural reference from the D&C or the Book of Mormon.  I personally believe that Sidney Rigdon challenged the Prophet to only use New Testament scriptures.  And within the address Joseph never quotes a single scripture but it is obvious that he used multiple, see the following (John 5:19, Philippians 2:12, John 10:17-18, and Revelations 3:21).  The following statement is from the address and is directed at none other than Sidney Rigdon.  

Sidney Rigdon had had a falling out at this time btw...

You may be correct that John 5:19 has the superficial intent to discuss healing on the sabbath as you have mentioned, but when Joseph Smith read the verse with the Spirit of Prophecy he received a different understanding.  The fact that John 5:19 is constantly quoted in current General Conferences gives credence to Joseph Smith's interpretation.  

First off - we are well into the realm of esoteric doctrine so take the following with a grain of salt.

There are multiple ways to look at the Big Picture.

1) Elohim is the one Eternal Father and there are none other above him.  He is God and has always been God.  (This is a belief of some LDS - I dont like it at all).

2) Jehovah is the only Savior.  Jesus Christ's Atonement is Eternal and thus works backwards and forwards in time.  (Thus in the future, if perhaps Abraham rises to the level of God and starts to produce spirit children and those spirits embark upon a mortal probation, their salvation as well will depend upon Jesus Christ).  Bruce R. McConkie seems to champion this theory - I also dislike it greatly.

3) The Eternal Round concept.  There is a process that continues to repeat over and over.  Within this plan the same roles continue to be played by different participants.  Thus Elohim had a Father and He learned how to become a  God by observing and following our Heavenly Grandfather...  A variation of this process is the one that I recognize.  It not only explains much of Joseph Smith's observations and teachings, it gives me great hope.

Many LDS believe that we will have the potential to eventually become as God is.  But when you get down to the How, it becomes cloudy.

If you are eventually able to create spirit children, do you think they will need to go through a mortal probationary state.  And if so do you think that they will look to Jesus Christ for their salvation or to your spiritual firstborn?  

It spawns many questions.  

I like Joseph Smith's take on it.  

sorry about the length

The length is fine!

The superficial reading of John 5:19 is healing on the sabbath, but by extension it is a condemnation of the hedges about the law and an advocacy of “true religion” in anticipation of the fulfilment of the law. Followed by a description of the redemptive mission of Christ.

Joseph Smith’s discourse does not offer the interpretation that Heavenly Father was an erstwhile Jesus Christ in another world, nor necessarily any of the other esoteric “Big Picture” doctrines you listed. All he says is that God was once a man and we can become gods by following Him through Christ, as Christ followed Him. The eternal round as you describe it seems to come closest to what the talk seems to say.

But for the Father to have a Spirit Child such as Jehovah/Christ (or any of us lesser stars) witness in real time His own mortal mission and eternal progress I think puts things out of order, unless you are saying we witnessed His estates of soteriological progress as pre-spirit, co-eternal intelligences as He became a God and our Father (but Joseph is hardly saying that).

If we are to do what the Father does and we haven’t done it yet, we can only expect to do what has been revealed as His role and works in the plan of salvation. As far as the extent of Christ’s Atonement, it would pertain to the works of His hands, which seem specific to those souls that were present and prepared to be tested on planets or earths to be made of the same order as ours at that stage in which He stepped forward as described in Abraham 3. However many these are (and we cannot be number them), I think Joseph’s message is that we will replicate what the Father did to bring this all about and preside over “Abraham 3” scenarios of our own in every respect.

While Abraham and Adam have entered their exaltation and are gods, we do not know how far “beyond the beyond” they’ve gotten or whether they have reached the stage where they have activated an “Abraham 3” of their own. When they do, I think there will be Firstborns and Christs for every Father (and Mother!), and a Firstborn and Christ for every generation of “Abraham 3” that follows after the first. We might even all join in on ever-growing Council of Gods (Church of the Firstborn) to accomplish this. But I don’t think Joseph is saying that, either. I think his message is simple: we become like Our Father through Christ, and we can have a taste of the joy of this redemption while yet in the flesh.

I’ll make a plug here for ministering as a disciple's way of life and that is how we see and become like the Father. It has to be real!

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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Joseph Smith’s discourse does not offer the interpretation that Heavenly Father was an erstwhile Jesus Christ in another world, nor necessarily any of the other esoteric “Big Picture” doctrines you listed. All he says is that God was once a man and we can become gods by following Him through Christ, as Christ followed Him. The eternal round as you describe it seems to come closest to what the talk seems to say.

that He [God the Father] once was a man like one of us and that God Himself, the Father of us all, once dwelled on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did in the flesh and like us.

What did Jesus say?—As the Father has power in Himself, even so has the Son power in himself. To do what? Why, what the Father did. That answer is obvious; even in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? “To lay down my life as my Father laid down His body that I might take it up again.” Do you believe it? If you don’t believe it, you don’t believe the Bible.

Two of the passages from the April 7, 1844 discourse.

From the first line I get that, 1) the Father was once a man.  2) He once dwelt on an Earth like Jesus Christ. 3) He also dwelt on an Earth like us.   It must be obvious that the type of Earth Life that Jesus experienced was radically different from the remainder of mankind.

From the second passage:  Jesus will lay down his body and take it up again just as the father did.    To me lay down this body is the atonement, and take it up again is the resurrection.  Jesus' death and resurrection is unlike any other human beings.  Of this there is no doubt.  Joseph Smith did not say that Elohim died and was raised like Joe Schmo.   What does the Son have power in himself to do???     Please See John 10:17-18, Joseph Smith was not making this stuff up ad lib.  He was constructing a big picture.  Everyone who reads John 10:17-18 understands that Jesus is describing the atonement and resurrection, but when many of us read the KFD we neglect to make this association and assume that he means something much less grand...   

 

 

I am saying that We (those who pray to Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ and ask for and receive forgiveness and partake of the sacrament and all ordinances) witness Jesus Christ and his atonement.  I believe similarly, that Jehovah was able to witness Elohim's atonement (and this happened prior to any of the rest of our brethren being organized into spirit children).

 

 

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

When they do, I think there will be Firstborns and Christs for every Father (and Mother!), and a Firstborn and Christ for every generation of “Abraham 3” that follows after the first. We might even all join in on ever-growing Council of Gods (Church of the Firstborn) to accomplish this.

Here is the problem.  If you can't do what Jesus did...  How can you ask your firstborn to what you cannot comprehend?  Will you say to your Firstborn, I want you to go have a conversation with my Savior Jesus Christ, He will instruct you on what you need to do so that you can save the rest of my spirit children.   And if this is your solution then you might wonder if the glory will be vectored to Jesus Christ instead of yourself...

 

My point is that God through Joseph Smith radically changed Latter-Day Saint understanding of eternal progression.  The Protestants believe that we will hang out on clouds with harps for eternal adoration, or some such.

LDS doctrine is radically different.  We believe in self-improvement, hard work, and perfection.

In reading D&C 122: 7-9 one might ask, what in the heck is Jesus trying to teach Joseph Smith???   And if these things shall give Joseph experience, and shall be for his good, then what kind of trials will he be called upon to perform in his future???

I think I have an inkling.   And it is sobering.  

 

 

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9 hours ago, mikbone said:

Here is the problem.  If you can't do what Jesus did...  How can you ask your firstborn to what you cannot comprehend?  Will you say to your Firstborn, I want you to go have a conversation with my Savior Jesus Christ, He will instruct you on what you need to do so that you can save the rest of my spirit children.   And if this is your solution then you might wonder if the glory will be vectored to Jesus Christ instead of yourself...

So you believe in a second mortal experience - at least for men?

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11 hours ago, CV75 said:

Joseph Smith’s discourse does not offer the interpretation that Heavenly Father was an erstwhile Jesus Christ in another world, nor necessarily any of the other esoteric “Big Picture” doctrines you listed. All he says is that God was once a man and we can become gods by following Him through Christ, as Christ followed Him. The eternal round as you describe it seems to come closest to what the talk seems to say.

In Truman Madsen’s discourse on Joseph Smith, he quite plainly states that Heavenly Father was a savior of his world.

9 hours ago, mikbone said:

If you can't do what Jesus did...  How can you ask your firstborn to what you cannot comprehend?  Will you say to your Firstborn, I want you to go have a conversation with my Savior Jesus Christ, He will instruct you on what you need to do so that you can save the rest of my spirit children.   And if this is your solution then you might wonder if the glory will be vectored to Jesus Christ instead of yourself...

I think CV75’s initial comment was spot on.

VVVVVVVVVV

On 10/28/2018 at 4:22 PM, CV75 said:

We can choose to sacrifice and consecrate ourselves to our maximum capacity through selfless extremity and be strengthened by angels in our sphere, in the same way that He was tested and strengthened in His. It doesn't matter that we are not actual Atoning Christs, we just have to be as intent as He was in meeting the Father's expectations. This is the essentiality of what I believe He saw His Father do, and was not necessarily a lock-step copy though some assert that He was.

Just how I chose to serve God and give up the sin ‘X’, I can expect and teach my children to serve God and give up their sin ‘Y’. I imagine ANY pain experienced in this life is comparatively a sliver when out into context of the Celestial Kingdom. All you would need to teach the savior of your world would be to fully obey you, trust you, and sacrifice all. Things we covenant to do in the temple.

If I am a bishop and the worst sin I ever had to repent of was raising my voice when I got angry at my dog, I imagine I would still be able to counsel a man on his addiction to opioids. I don’t believe prior experience with every sin is necessary to expect righteousness of others. 

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