Conditions of the Spirit World

[Dantheman]

Over 20 years ago I married a beautiful woman from Peru who came from an active LDS family. But little did I know that there would be gospel doctrine mixed with spiritualism mixed into my in-laws belief system hat would come up that would be very difficult for me to manage on my own. This discussion is to help find some valid gospel centered resources and answers to these questions. My focus is on the conditions of the spirit world after death. 

From Duane S. Crowther's book 'Life Everlasting"A definitive Study of Life After Death'. Page 236 Heading - Evil spirits sometimes wander on Earth indiscriminately; righteous spirits return only for a purpose. 

"Spirits who reside in paradise are carefully organized and controlled through principles of righteousness. They are not free to wander about the earth without an assigned purpose. In contrast, the spirits in spirit prison are able to "wander aimlessly, not knowing where to go or what to do until they accept the gospel. Those spirits who are under Satan's influence are given ample opportunity to haunt the earth and create whatever mischief and evil they choose. Elder Parley P. Pratt wrote that. Many spirits of the departed, who are unhappy, linger in lonely wretchedness about the earth, and in the air, and especially about their ancient homesteads, and the places rendered dear to them by the memory of the former scenes."

Crowther goes on to quote more from Parely P. Pratt's book, Key to the Science of Theology. Which was published by the church up till somewhere about 1912 Which also contains for me a very surprising chapter on how the spirits of the dead can overtake and possess a mortal body, and that they are the cause of much demonic possession. 

This was all news to me and I can't wrap my head around this. Listed below are my basic fundamental understanding of what I understand the Gospel to be with regards to conditions of the post mortal spirit world and un-embodied spirits in this world.  

• There is a veil that separates this life from the next life. 
• Only priesthood power has the ability to allow  passage through a veil. 
• The spirit world is divided into Paradise and Prison. The prison is as much literal as figurative in that those in spirit prison would have to be limited in their sphere of movement and association because they were not preached the Gospel until after Christ had died on the cross. 
• The only un-embodied spirits roaming the earth on our side of the veil are Satan and his hosts. 
• That only messengers from God that visit from the pre-mortal and post-mortal realms can do so only because they are authorized by priesthood power. 

What I want to know is, are my above statements correct or not. And if not what authoritative Gospel resources can help to clarify.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Dantheman

[mikbone]

1) The veil seperates us from God’s presence.  We passed thru the veil when we left the pre-mortal existence.  So yes at birth we pass thru the veil.  But we do not pass back thru the veil at death.  We only get to pass back into God’s presence at a later time after completing some ordinances.  

Although at times we refer to death as a figurative “passing thru the veil” 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/veil?lang=eng

2)  Yes, transversing the veil requires priesthood power

3) Yes, D&C 138

4) Yes, Lucifer and his host were cast down to Earth.  

5) Yes, Michael the archangel directs angelic ministration under the direction of God.

From Joseph Smith, General Conference October 5,1840 -

therefore he set the ordinances to be the same for Ever and ever and set Adam to watch over them to reveal them from heaven to man or to send Angels to reveal them Hebrews 1 Chap. 16 verse. Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who shall be heirs of Salvation.  These angels are under the direction of Michael or Adam who acts under the direction of Christ.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by mikbone

[Guest]

9 hours ago, mikbone said:

1) The veil seperates us from God’s presence.  We passed thru the veil when we left the pre-mortal existence.  So yes at birth we pass thru the veil.  But we do not pass back thru the veil at death.  We only get to pass back into God’s presence at a later time after completing some ordinances.  

Although at times we refer to death as a figurative “passing thru the veil” 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/veil?lang=eng

I don't believe it is "figurative".  Instead, I see it as multiple layers of veils.  As we pass on, the first veil is parted.  And we have degrees of progression until final judgment, where the final veil is parted.

9 hours ago, mikbone said:

2)  Yes, transversing the veil requires priesthood power

I don't know if I agree or disagree on that one.  Do you have a reference for that?

9 hours ago, mikbone said:

3) Yes, D&C 138

I agree.  But I'm not sure if the application the OP intended is clearly addressed by 138.

9 hours ago, mikbone said:

4) Yes, Lucifer and his host were cast down to Earth.  

Yes, they were.  But are they the "ONLY" unembodied spirits as the OP suggests?  I'd like to see a reference defining that.

9 hours ago, mikbone said:

5) Yes, Michael the archangel directs angelic ministration under the direction of God.

From Joseph Smith, General Conference October 5,1840 -

therefore he set the ordinances to be the same for Ever and ever and set Adam to watch over them to reveal them from heaven to man or to send Angels to reveal them Hebrews 1 Chap. 16 verse. Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who shall be heirs of Salvation.  These angels are under the direction of Michael or Adam who acts under the direction of Christ.

He was asking about pre-mortal and post-mortal.  Your reference is about the mortal world.

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I don't believe it is "figurative".  Instead, I see it as multiple layers of veils.  As we pass on, the first veil is parted.  And we have degrees of progression until final judgment, where the final veil is parted.

I don't know if I agree or disagree on that one.  Do you have a reference for that?

I agree.  But I'm not sure if the application the OP intended is clearly addressed by 138.

Yes, they were.  But are they the "ONLY" unembodied spirits as the OP suggests?  I'd like to see a reference defining that.

He was asking about pre-mortal and post-mortal.  Your reference is about the mortal world.

Believe it or not, my original intent is not to have arguments here.

Dantheman is a first time poster and seems to have a legitimate question.  I served in rural areas in Chile and I know that sometimes they can get superstition mixed up with doctrine...

His is pretty much right on the mark, I was trying to give him what authoritative gospel resources that I could find.

The question on priesthood power allowing passage through the veil can be found in the Temple.  

There is probably some good information in Boyd K. Packers The Holy Temple

[theplains]

15 hours ago, Dantheman said:

What I want to know is, are my above statements correct or not. And if not what authoritative Gospel resources can help to clarify.

Alma 34:32-35 has a good explanation.

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life 
is the day for men to perform their labors. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so 
many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance 
until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we 
do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be 
no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, 
that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your 
bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your 
body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even 
until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; 
therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil 
hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked."

Jim

[Anddenex]

15 hours ago, Dantheman said:

This was all news to me and I can't wrap my head around this. Listed below are my basic fundamental understanding of what I understand the Gospel to be with regards to conditions of the post mortal spirit world and un-embodied spirits in this world.  

• There is a veil that separates this life from the next life. 
• Only priesthood power has the ability to allow  passage through a veil. 
• The spirit world is divided into Paradise and Prison. The prison is as much literal as figurative in that those in spirit prison would have to be limited in their sphere of movement and association because they were not preached the Gospel until after Christ had died on the cross. 
• The only un-embodied spirits roaming the earth on our side of the veil are Satan and his hosts. 
• That only messengers from God that visit from the pre-mortal and post-mortal realms can do so only because they are authorized by priesthood power. 

What I want to know is, are my above statements correct or not. And if not what authoritative Gospel resources can help to clarify.

There is a veil that separates this life from the next life.  True; although the veil has multiple meanings or as some shared here "degrees" that can be removed.

Only priesthood power has the ability to allow  passage through a veil. This from my understanding, as of right now, is correct.

The spirit world is divided into Paradise and Prison. The prison is as much literal as figurative in that those in spirit prison would have to be limited in their sphere of movement and association because they were not preached the Gospel until after Christ had died on the cross. 

The spirit world is divided into two parts paradise and prison; although these parts are more figurative than literal. The Earth is the spirit world, and probably the two parts have more to do with the same notion on earth, people choose who they congregate with. Those in paradise will congregate with those in paradise, and vice-versa.

I am not sure regarding a "limitation" regarding movement within the spirit world as to who they associate with. I gather it is by personal choice. As of now, it appears correct from scripture that the gospel wasn't preached until Christ was resurrected and visited the spirit world (those in paradise state of mind and heart).

The only un-embodied spirits roaming the earth on our side of the veil are Satan and his hosts. I think your term "roaming" is where I find my hesitation to agree. Gabriel who visited Mary was an un-embodied spirit (unless of course we know not of his translated state). I am in understanding that both those in paradise and prison are able to "roam" the earth. The difference, those in paradise will only interact as given authority to do so. Those in prison (if they can act like Satan's minions -- fallen angels), they only have power according to the moral agency of humankind, and what the sons and daughters allow.

That only messengers from God that visit from the pre-mortal and post-mortal realms can do so only because they are authorized by priesthood power.

I am not sure this is accurate. Those who follow God will not act without his permission in these realms. This doesn't mean they couldn't by choice interact without authority given. They act with authority given because they choose to follow God. Thus a proper order is kept through righteous choice and discipline. (thus we have ways to tell good spirits from bad spirits, or better said from resurrected beings, the spirit of the just, and the spirits of the unjust)

I am in understanding the spirits of the unjust are under the same obligations but simply do not care and will move upon the earth until God commands otherwise and they must obey.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, mikbone said:

Believe it or not, my original intent is not to have arguments here.

Dantheman is a first time poster and seems to have a legitimate question.  I served in rural areas in Chile and I know that sometimes they can get superstition mixed up with doctrine...

His is pretty much right on the mark, I was trying to give him what authoritative gospel resources that I could find.

The question on priesthood power allowing passage through the veil can be found in the Temple.  

There is probably some good information in Boyd K. Packers The Holy Temple

I wouldn't call what I was doing "arguing" either.  But if Dan was asking questions, and you offered explanations, I thought that if we had a discussion about it, that would help him think through the ideas at hand as well.

BTW, when I was asking for references, it was sincere, not a challenge.  I wonder if you might be right.  But I can't just take your word for it. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Guest

[mikbone]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I wouldn't call what I was doing "arguing" either.  But if Dan was asking questions, and you offered explanations, I thought that if we had a discussion about it, that would help him think through the ideas at hand as well.

BTW, when I was asking for references, it was sincere, not a challenge.  I wonder if you might be right.  But I can't just take your word for it. 

I did offer references (four).  You on the other hand offered zero.  

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I did offer references (four).  You on the other hand offered zero.  

I wasn't aware it was a competition. 

I was looking at your "answers" and found them interesting.  I even considered they might be right.  The references I asked for were the items for which you did NOT provide a reference.

You did not ask for references.  Why?  Because I didn't make any declarations of truth.  I merely offered questions or doubts for thought.  It hardly seems fair for you to cry foul because I didn't provide anything that you never asked for.

[mikbone]

33 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I wasn't aware it was a competition. 

I was looking at your "answers" and found them interesting.  I even considered they might be right.  The references I asked for were the items for which you did NOT provide a reference.

You did not ask for references.  Why?  Because I didn't make any declarations of truth.  I merely offered questions or doubts for thought.  It hardly seems fair for you to cry foul because I didn't provide anything that you never asked for.

Its not a competition.  Just that the OP asked for "authoritative Gospel resources can help to clarify."

I would always prefer reference btw, otherwise you are just giving opinions.

And you know what the General Authorities have been stating about various opinions from anonymous internet sites...

 

Quote

We live in a time of greatly expanded and disseminated information. But not all of this information is true. We need to be cautious as we seek truth and choose sources for that search. We should not consider secular prominence or authority as qualified sources of truth. We should be cautious about relying on information or advice offered by entertainment stars, prominent athletes, or anonymous internet sources. Expertise in one field should not be taken as expertise on truth in other subjects.

Dallin H. Oaks - October Conference 2018 Truth and the Plan

Edited October 31, 2018 by mikbone

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Just that the OP asked for "authoritative Gospel resources can help to clarify."

Ok.  So what's the problem?

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

If you are a good person then it will be nice. If you are a bad person then it will be less nice.

[CACO12]

On 10/31/2018 at 10:51 AM, theplains said:

Alma 34:32-35 has a good explanation.

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life 
is the day for men to perform their labors. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so 
many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance 
until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we 
do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be 
no labor performed.” 

Jim

Performing temple ordinances for the dead anyone? I think this has a lot of insight into the next chapter of our eternal progression. Spirit paradise/prison will be a place of teaching and learning. 

I think those in paradise and prison will walk and talk together and inhabit the same sphere. Prison is just a state of darkness and uncertainty. It’s a life without light and knowledge of the savior and knowledge received in the temple. Paradise being the opposite, being full of light and knowledge being able to rest in that assurance of the savior and being able to share that knowledge with those who are in darkness. It will be a state in prelude to the millennial reign of the Messiah on the earth. 

[Rob Osborn]

9 hours ago, CACO12 said:

Performing temple ordinances for the dead anyone? I think this has a lot of insight into the next chapter of our eternal progression. Spirit paradise/prison will be a place of teaching and learning. 

I think those in paradise and prison will walk and talk together and inhabit the same sphere. Prison is just a state of darkness and uncertainty. It’s a life without light and knowledge of the savior and knowledge received in the temple. Paradise being the opposite, being full of light and knowledge being able to rest in that assurance of the savior and being able to share that knowledge with those who are in darkness. It will be a state in prelude to the millennial reign of the Messiah on the earth. 

Paradise and spirit prison are two separte physical places.

[Jane_Doe]

14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Paradise and spirit prison are two separte physical places.

We actually don't know that.

By default, it's habit to them as physically separate places, but we don't actually have that confirmed.  Our confirmed knowledge on post-mortal-life happenings is actually very slim.  And honestly, our focus should be on best follow God today.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

It is a sandbox level filled with roller coasters and pony rides, duh.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

It is a sandbox level filled with roller coasters and pony rides, duh.

I was thinking that spirit prison was that sandbox that I had in kindergarten with no swings or anything.  And Paradise was that Centennial Center Park in South Denver (Centennial, duh).

[Dantheman]

Great input from you all. There may be no right or wrong for this answer since not everything has been revealed. Sometimes we just don't know. 

I am trying to reconcile really what D&C 138 means. 

"The Savior opened the door for the salvation of the dead. Before that time the unworthy dead were shut up in prison and were not visited. (Moses 7:38–39; Isaiah 24:22.) We have good reason to believe that the righteous spirits in paradise did not mingle with the unrighteous spirits before the visit of our Lord to the spirit world. He declared that there was a gulf fixed that could not be crossed which separated the righteous from the unrighteous [see Luke 16:26], therefore there was no sound of the voice of prophets and the Gospel was not declared among the wicked until Christ went into that world before his resurrection. He it was who opened the prison doors. —Isaiah 42:6–7; 61:1." (Introduction to Family History, Student Manual)

I interpret this to mean that in the Spirit World, there wasn't always free association. Those in spirit prison didn't associate with those in paradise untill Christ died and organized the righteous in Paradise to begin preaching the gospel to them. I understand this to mean that currently, the ability of righteous spirits and unrighteous spirits can now freely mingle - to what degree I don't know. (By unrighteous I merely mean those in spirit prison - not necessarily wicked)

I am assuming that spirits in spirit prison can't visit us in this life because if they could - then they would have been able to listen to the prophets from the days of Adam till the time of Christ. This would have allowed those spirits to listen to the Gospel and choose to follow it. But it doesn't appear to be the case up to the death of Christ. 

Christ organized his righteous followers in Paradise to preach to those in Prison - If the spirits of those in prison were then released from their "confinement" as it were and allowed to visit us in this existance - whether we are aware of them or no - they would be able to listen to our missionaries just by hanging around them. But that doesn't appear to be the case. They are preached by Christs followers who are in Paradise. 

Therefore, the unembodied spirits that we deal with in this life are of two kinds - angels sent by God (either from pre-mortal or post-mortal realms) to communicate messages under priesthood authority from God. And the other kind is Satan and his followers.

[Rob Osborn]

11 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

We actually don't know that.

By default, it's habit to them as physically separate places, but we don't actually have that confirmed.  Our confirmed knowledge on post-mortal-life happenings is actually very slim.  And honestly, our focus should be on best follow God today.

The scriptures actually teach they are separate places. After Christ died he went to Paradise and shared the gospel message and commissioned Messengers to go into spirit prison of which he personally couldn't go. Those in Spirit prison are in that place until they repent and show obedience to the gospel laws and ordinances. After they pay their penalty they can be released from the prison and go into Paradise.

[askandanswer]

On 11/22/2018 at 6:52 AM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

It is a sandbox level filled with roller coasters and pony rides, duh.

Im thinking that engineers like @Carborendum might disapprove of roller coaster rides being constructed in sand boxes for reasons that have something to do with inadequate foundations. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, askandanswer said:

Im thinking that engineers like @Carborendum might disapprove of roller coaster rides being constructed in sand boxes for reasons that have something to do with inadequate foundations. 

Believe it or not, sand foundations can be quite stable.

[askandanswer]

if anybody else had told me that.............

[askandanswer]

26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
 

[mordorbund]

On 11/22/2018 at 7:11 PM, Carborendum said:

Believe it or not, sand foundations can be quite stable.

#thingsjesusneversaid

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

#thingsjesusneversaid

True.  But so is my statement.