Spectrum of Adherence to the Letter of the Law

[Guest]

Lately, I've seen/heard a ton of people who seem to be at polar opposites regarding permissiveness regarding certain commandments.  While many abide by the notion of "moderation in all things", I wonder how to talk to someone about topic (that THEY bring up) where we think things are extreme?

Obviously we're supposed to be guided by the Spirit.  But, ya know... It isn't all that reassuring when written word says one thing and we "feel" that we just need to moderate it a bit.

We've had posters here wondering about women showing calves in skirts that are below the knee.  We've had posters condemning the Church for building such lavish temples as being too costly/worldly/whatever.

I really couldn't understand a woman who declared with such pride that she just HAD to walk out of the movie "Field of Dreams".  Still trying to figure that one out.  But what do yo do with that?  Just smile and nod?

There is also the other extreme where people are all about supporting gay marriage to the point that they declare the Brethren are "on the wrong side of history". 

I'd even say that all these people I'm speaking of are faithful Latter-day Saints (defined as: They still believe the basic tenets, attend Church regularly, are pretty much obedient, and fulfill their callings).  So, while we do have individual guidance from the Spirit, I really have to wonder how much adherence or lack thereof to the letter means anything.

[Rob Osborn]

Personalities are different. People have different upbringings and influences. I think we will continue to have that spectrum for quite some time because we just aren't close to the spirit collectively- we just aren't all of one heart and mind....yet. 

A major problem is the stiffneckedness of the saints. We tend to take upon a holier than thou approach when we start seeing our own progress as being above another and think we are special. It's pridefulness. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Lately, I've seen/heard a ton of people who seem to be at polar opposites regarding permissiveness regarding certain commandments.  While many abide by the notion of "moderation in all things", I wonder how to talk to someone about topic (that THEY bring up) where we think things are extreme?

Obviously we're supposed to be guided by the Spirit.  But, ya know... It isn't all that reassuring when written word says one thing and we "feel" that we just need to moderate it a bit.

We've had posters here wondering about women showing calves in skirts that are below the knee.  We've had posters condemning the Church for building such lavish temples as being too costly/worldly/whatever.

I really couldn't understand a woman who declared with such pride that she just HAD to walk out of the movie "Field of Dreams".  Still trying to figure that one out.  But what do yo do with that?  Just smile and nod?

There is also the other extreme where people are all about supporting gay marriage to the point that they declare the Brethren are "on the wrong side of history". 

I'd even say that all these people I'm speaking of are faithful Latter-day Saints (defined as: They still believe the basic tenets, attend Church regularly, are pretty much obedient, and fulfill their callings).  So, while we do have individual guidance from the Spirit, I really have to wonder how much adherence or lack thereof to the letter means anything.

I think the concept of "The Word" reconciles the letter and the spirit of the law quite nicely. This entails so much more than literal and spiritual information, but personal attributes as well, such as grace and charity, both of which work well with justice and mercy.

[zil]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I wonder how to talk to someone about topic (that THEY bring up) where we think things are extreme? 

I think it depends on the participants.  Some people are open to additional understanding; different interpretation; demonstration that in the context of other prophetic writings, their interpretation may not be correct; etc.  With such people, discussion can be fruitful.  Other people have read a single verse, decided what they think, and no power under heaven will move them.  If either party falls in this second category, you either walk away, or you say your piece and walk away.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

moderation in all things

So the scriptural "temperate" in all things get's often translated to this. But it doesn't mean this. Temperance is to be moderate. It should be "Be moderate in all things", that is so say, "Show restraint in all things". That is a very different meaning than, "don't do anything to the extreme".

[Anddenex]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Lately, I've seen/heard a ton of people who seem to be at polar opposites regarding permissiveness regarding certain commandments.  While many abide by the notion of "moderation in all things", I wonder how to talk to someone about topic (that THEY bring up) where we think things are extreme?

Obviously we're supposed to be guided by the Spirit.  But, ya know... It isn't all that reassuring when written word says one thing and we "feel" that we just need to moderate it a bit.

We've had posters here wondering about women showing calves in skirts that are below the knee.  We've had posters condemning the Church for building such lavish temples as being too costly/worldly/whatever.

I really couldn't understand a woman who declared with such pride that she just HAD to walk out of the movie "Field of Dreams".  Still trying to figure that one out.  But what do yo do with that?  Just smile and nod?

There is also the other extreme where people are all about supporting gay marriage to the point that they declare the Brethren are "on the wrong side of history". 

I'd even say that all these people I'm speaking of are faithful Latter-day Saints (defined as: They still believe the basic tenets, attend Church regularly, are pretty much obedient, and fulfill their callings).  So, while we do have individual guidance from the Spirit, I really have to wonder how much adherence or lack thereof to the letter means anything.

As pertaining to the Letter/Spirit of the Law I have found Elder Scott's definition from my mission to be the most accurate statement, "Living the Spirit of the Law is living the Letter of the Law in the right spirit." The Spirit of the Law is impossible to live if you haven't lived the Letter of the law, and you cannot live the Spirit of the Law until you have lived the Letter of the Law. This is why I, personally, do not like (oxymorons) that specify I am a spirit of the law follower or a letter of the law follower (it is a contradiction of terms). I AM BOTH, and will always be both.

Obviously we're supposed to be guided by the Spirit.  But, ya know... It isn't all that reassuring when written word says one thing and we "feel" that we just need to moderate it a bit.

Especially if the command or direction is an extreme (i.e Nephi and Laban). This though is a true example of Spirit in contradiction to Letter. However, the command we have received is to live by "every" word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

As to living life daily I do not judge if a person wants to extend themselves (like your example with Field of Dreams). With this, I do what I have done since my mission and the Lord's teachings from my mission. I rejoice anytime a person feels they are living their religion further (if their decision is good). If they then judge me for not doing the same, well, this is when I simply "smile and nod." I have friends who will not watch anything above PG. I applaud them and rejoice in their decision. If they begin to judge me that I watch Avengers, or other PG-13 movies, well, I smile and nod. They aren't my judge.

There is also the other extreme where people are all about supporting gay marriage to the point that they declare the Brethren are "on the wrong side of history". 

This isn't the Spirit of the Law, this is the wrong spirit. I know of no scriptural reference that would highlight this as "good." There are plenty of scriptural references regarding who "thought" the prophets were on the wrong side, and sadly they were on the "wrong" side with God. Some caused a whole nation to wander for 40 years. Some caused the earth to open up on them as they were separated from the saints who followed. Some, thought Nephi and Lehi were on the wrong side of history but scriptural history speaks otherwise.

I am not referring to a person supporting gay marriage as the wrong spirit, the wrong spirit being those who come out against the prophet.

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Anddenex

[anatess2]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I really couldn't understand a woman who declared with such pride that she just HAD to walk out of the movie "Field of Dreams".  Still trying to figure that one out.  But what do yo do with that?  Just smile and nod?

There's this quote I got from a book... I think it was from that book Gung Ho, a book on how to improve organizational productivity (my favorite book on the subject).

Anyway, this is the quote as I remember it:

"I don't scold.  I'm too busy improving myself to be concerned that God saw it fit to deprive some people with the gift of intelligence."

[The Folk Prophet]

@Carborendum and @anatess2, re the woman walking out on Field of Dreams (for moral reasons...I could see it for boredom's sake...):

I don't think anyone is going to lose their exaltation for having walked out on any movie made by Hollywood for any reason.

[Guest MormonGator]

Read "Billy Budd" by Herman Melville. It shows the struggle between the letter of the law and spirit of the law. 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@Carborendum and @anatess2, re the woman walking out on Field of Dreams (for moral reasons...I could see it for boredom's sake...):

I don't think anyone is going to lose their exaltation for having walked out on any movie made by Hollywood for any reason.

Regarding this and your earlier response, I wonder what you think of the person who scolded the woman for showing her calves as "immodest".

[Guest]

Perhaps I should have titled this thread "Spectrum of judging the extent and meaning of a commandment was actually intended to be."  e.g.  What is "immodest"?  Showing a woman's shoulders and cleavage?  Or are calves immodest?

[The Folk Prophet]

FWIW, as far as I can recollect there is no such principle in the gospel as "the spirit of the law". There is merely law. God's law. God's law is to love Him with all your heart, soul, and mind. Everything else is encompassed therein. We are either obedient to this law or we are not. Any "spirit of the law" is well within the boundaries set up in that command.

[The Folk Prophet]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Regarding this and your earlier response, I wonder what you think of the person who scolded the woman for showing her calves as "immodest".

Scolding another is obedient and rigth if the Spirit guides you to do so.

[Guest MormonGator]

53 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Perhaps I should have titled this thread "Spectrum of judging the extent and meaning of a commandment was actually intended to be."  e.g.  What is "immodest"?  Showing a woman's shoulders and cleavage?  Or are calves immodest?

@Carborendum, I'm just asking a practical question. Why does it matter? Outside of your own daughter (And I don't even know if you have one. I know you have kids don't know their genders, it's none of my business anyway, strictly hypothetical) do you really think you can lecture/nag/scold someone into wearing something that isn't immodest? If you can, than you should quit your job immediately and go into sales. You can make a killing with those powers of persuasion. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by MormonGator

[Vort]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

@Carborendum, I'm just asking a practical question. Why does it matter? Outside of your own daughter (And I don't even know if you have one. I know you have kids don't know their genders) do you really think you can lecture/nag/scold someone into wearing something that isn't immodest? If you can, than you should quit your job immediately and go into sales. You can make a killing with those powers of persuasion. 

The practical is often the enemy of the good. There is a time for practical consideration, but sometimes virtue and simple integrity demand that you take a stand, even when you know (or think you know) no one will stand with you. Remember Abinadi. He died in torturous pain, alone and utterly rejected, yet look at his legacy.

I would also point out that holding and even openly preaching a standard is not the same as (1) lecturing, (2) nagging, (3) scolding, or (4) trying to make anyone do anything.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Vort said:

The practical is often the enemy of the good.

So is the perfect.  

If you preach someone into virtuous conduct, then job well done. And again, go into sales. Immediately.  

The issue with preaching is that you, in the well known but deadly accurate saying, usually preach to the already converted. 

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

The issue with preaching is that you, in the well known but deadly accurate saying, usually preach to the already converted.

Am I the only one who thinks that preaching to the choir is profitable, and in fact a natural blessing of being a choir member?

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Am I the only one who thinks that preaching to the choir is profitable, and in fact a natural blessing of being a choir member?

 

@Vort, pay your tithing. Don't cheat on your wife.  Don't start smoking cigarettes. Don't use meth. Read your book of Mormon. 

I'm not sure how profitable that preaching is. I'm 100% sure that @Vort pays his tithing, doesn't cheat on his wife, doesn't have any desire to start smoking meth or cigarettes and reads his book of Mormon. So....I think I've just wasted his and my time. 

[Vort]

18 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Vort, pay your tithing. Don't cheat on your wife.  Don't start smoking cigarettes. Don't use meth. Read your book of Mormon. 

I'm not sure how profitable that preaching is. I'm 100% sure that @Vort pays his tithing, doesn't cheat on his wife, doesn't have any desire to start smoking meth or cigarettes and reads his book of Mormon. So....I think I've just wasted his and my time. 

I appreciate the compliment, but I assure you that no one gets more out of General Conference (or at least no one should get more out of General Conference) than I do. I desperately need the preaching I receive on a weekly basis, from my leaders and fellow congregants alike.

[Guest MormonGator]

14 minutes ago, Vort said:

I appreciate the compliment, but I assure you that no one gets more out of General Conference (or at least no one should get more out of General Conference) than I do. I desperately need the preaching I receive on a weekly basis, from my leaders and fellow congregants alike.

And actually, after dealing with my responses to your posts, you probably feel like you need a to smoke a little meth...

[classylady]

41 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 

@Vort, pay your tithing. Don't cheat on your wife.  Don't start smoking cigarettes. Don't use meth. Read your book of Mormon. 

I'm not sure how profitable that preaching is. I'm 100% sure that @Vort pays his tithing, doesn't cheat on his wife, doesn't have any desire to start smoking meth or cigarettes and reads his book of Mormon. So....I think I've just wasted his and my time. 

I have often heard others say “Church is so boring. It’s the same lessons, time after time.” And, I think to myself I need those same lessons time after time. I need to be reminded of the importance of obeying the commandments. If I’m not reminded it would be so easy for me to start with: it won’t hurt if I shop on Sundays; tithing is so hard, I’m going to skip this month because I need Christmas money; a little flirtation with my co-worker won’t hurt; I’m going on a Sunday drive in the mountains instead of attending church, I can feel the Spirit that way; telling off-color jokes isn’t so bad; etc. The list can go on and on. There are so many ways the Spirit can leave us. I personally need to be reminded to choose to do right. I need to hear the message of being more Christlike. It isn’t a waste of time to be preaching to the choir. I’m in the choir and I need the preaching. Maybe, it’s because I’m just like the Israelites, who need the constant preaching and call to repentance. It would be so easy for me to slip and stop following the commandments. I hope it doesn’t sound like I think I’m perfect. I have so many weaknesses I need to improve on. That’s again why I need to be preached to. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by classylady

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

And actually, after dealing with my responses to your posts, you probably feel like you need a to smoke a little meth...

When I was a kid, they called it "speed". Then it was "meth". These days, I think it's called "Adderall" and "Ritalin".

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

When I was a kid, they called it "speed". Then it was "meth". These days, I think it's called "Adderall" and "Ritalin".

We agree 100%, and ironically-I was on Ritalin as a child (I'm sure everyone here is shocked-shocked! to learn that I had a serious ADHD growing up). It worked for me, but I think it's massively over perscribed. Little boys are basically given it to make them behave. Incredibly disturbing. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by MormonGator

[zil]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

are calves immodest?

Apparently so!  Just look at these four, running about without a stitch on!   (And no, the bells don't count!)

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I think it's massively over perscribed. Little boys are basically given it to make them behave. Incredibly disturbing.

I could not agree more. It's criminal. And I believe it's a fairly natural outgrowth of modern public education, whose feminist philosophy asserts that boys are a behavioral problem to be solved.