Spectrum of Adherence to the Letter of the Law


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2 minutes ago, Vort said:

I could not agree more. It's criminal. And I believe it's a fairly natural outgrowth of modern public education, whose feminist philosophy asserts that boys are a behavioral problem to be solved.

Boys aren't the only ones prescribed drugs for no good reason.  Not that the feminists aren't part of the problem, but I think the "everyone must learn the same things in the same ways at the same ages in the same schools" fad that's been getting stronger for the past couple hundred years is to blame:

(Should start at 15:14, but the whole video discusses the concept further.)

https://www.youtube.com/embed/iG9CE55wbtY?start=914

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

@Carborendum, I'm just asking a practical question. Why does it matter? Outside of your own daughter (And I don't even know if you have one. I know you have kids don't know their genders, it's none of my business anyway, strictly hypothetical) do you really think you can lecture/nag/scold someone into wearing something that isn't immodest? If you can, than you should quit your job immediately and go into sales. You can make a killing with those powers of persuasion. 

Fair question.

  • It is human nature (at least my nature) to try to figure people out.  What on earth is driving this behavior I'm seeing?  I really wonder.  I'd like to understand it.  When people take the time to make the comment on that end of the spectrum, I tend to want to address it.  But I have no idea what drives this position (or mine for that matter) other than "this is how I feel about it."  And that doesn't really help understanding anything.
  • The fact that I could go even "more conservative" (conservative is the best word I can think of at the moment) makes me wonder if perhaps I'm the one who needs to change his attitude.
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9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

What on earth is driving this behavior I'm seeing? 

My view-

For American women-When a girl wears really, really skimpy clothing it generally (key word, generally) means she's trying to show off her body. Maybe because she's proud of it or maybe because she's secretly insecure and trying to seek body positivity from the outside. Sort of like "If I get a man to pay attention to me, it'll make me feel beautiful, loved and appreciated. So I'm going to wear this mini skit and halter top." 

For European women-they basically go around naked because Europeans aren't as prudish and hung up on sexuality as Americans are. When I go to certain beaches 99% of the people are vacationing Europeans who want to relax. 1% are shocked Americans gawking in horror about what they see. 

Just my thoughts. 

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Just now, MormonGator said:

My view-

For American women-When a girl wears really, really skimpy clothing it generally (key word, generally) means she's trying to show off her body. Maybe because she's proud of it or maybe because she's secretly insecure and trying to seek body positivity from the outside. Sort of like "If I get a man to pay attention to me, it'll make me feel beautiful, loved and appreciated. So I'm going to wear this mini skit and halter top." 

For European women-they basically go around naked because Europeans aren't as prudish and hung up on sexuality as Americans are. When I go to certain beaches 99% of the people are vacationing Europeans who want to relax. 1% are shocked Americans gawking in horror about what they see. 

Just my thoughts. 

I didn't realize they offered citizenship tests at European Beaches.

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Just now, Carborendum said:

I didn't realize they offered citizenship tests at European Beaches.

:: snickers :: they don't, but when you hear people speaking with thick Dutch accents, you can safely assume they aren't from Topeka. 

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

:: snickers :: they don't, but when you hear people speaking with thick Dutch accents, you can safely assume they aren't from Topeka. 

But they could be from Pennsylvania :P

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Hopefully this is not too far removed from the OP (it is a bit out of place where the discussion has since gone). I find it sometimes difficult to judge between letter of the law and spirit of the law questions. I have no answers, but perhaps the WoW could serve as an example:

Letter of the law: Abstain from alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, illicit drug use (whatever "illicit use" is). In other dietary choices, make healthy choices. It might even illustrate the difficulties in getting a consensus on what the letter of the law is, because I am not sure everyone will agree with my summary here.

Spirit of the law: Promote good health and make choices consistent with good stewardship over our physical bodies. Again, I'm not sure everyone will agree with me, so perhaps part of the problem with these issues is the simple matter of deciding exactly what the letter and spirit of the law are.

With that framework, how might the spirit of the law be used

Some might say that a cup of joe or Earl Gray is certainly no worse than the caffeinated, carbonated sugar waters we consume -- maybe even better -- so they will allow themselves the occasional cup even if it is against the letter of the law of the WoW, because they judge that it is not against the spirit of the law.

Others might say that white bread and GMOs are as bad as poisons, so they interpret the WoW as not only forbidding the 5 categories mentioned above, but the spirit of the law also prohibits all breads except whole grain non-GMO organic breads (or whatever diet fad the person is following). (personally, I fear that donuts and ice cream and other such yumminess would also get axed in such attitudes -- illustrating how unspiritual I must be to be so addicted to my favorite treats that I cannot give them up).

Perhaps it shows that the "live the letter of the law in the right spirit" is the best answer so far?

One thought as I composed this -- perhaps it shows that we make too many of our choices into "moral" choices and fail to recognize which of our choices are not rooted in morality (right vs. wrong). (I don't think the loaf of bread I choose has moral implications).

Another thought -- I am reminded of the verses around the scriptures that warn against adding to or taking away from God's word/law. My examples suggest hypothetical people who seem to use the spirit of the law to add to or take from the letter of the law.

my penny's worth of thoughts so far.

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On 10/31/2018 at 1:26 PM, Carborendum said:

Perhaps I should have titled this thread "Spectrum of judging the extent and meaning of a commandment was actually intended to be."  e.g.  What is "immodest"?  Showing a woman's shoulders and cleavage?  Or are calves immodest?

Personally, I truly believe, if we all put away the natural man all of us would draw the same conclusion regarding modesty. I would assume in the post-mortal realm we will not be viewing women's cleavage from the robes we will have on.

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5 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Personally, I truly believe, if we all put away the natural man all of us would draw the same conclusion regarding modesty. I would assume in the post-mortal realm we will not be viewing women's cleavage from the robes we will have on.

You're assuming women will have cleavage. :D

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I used to be pretty judgmental until I really looked at me in the mirror and saw someone that needed a lot of improvement.

Just because one person does it, doesn't make it right to do

Just because you have perfected living a commandment doesn't mean everyone has.

 

Did Jesus stone the prostitute?  Why do we think we have any more right to do so than Jesus?  Be kind and gentle to those trying to find their way on the path or even those trying to find the path.  We each have our demons that we have to contend with.

I have done some pretty dumb things in my life and I am grateful to those who have forgiven me.  I try to do likewise.

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You're assuming women will have cleavage. :D

Well, it seems like the body will be resurrected to its perfect form. I mean if not one hair on the body is lost, I think the assumption is safe for women to still maintain their breasts. :blush:

 

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7 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Personally, I truly believe, if we all put away the natural man all of us would draw the same conclusion regarding modesty. I would assume in the post-mortal realm we will not be viewing women's cleavage from the robes we will have on.

I think I see where you're going with this.  And I'd agree.  But I'm going to be ornery for a moment.  One could argue that if we put away the natural man, there really is no need for such.

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10 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Letter of the law: Abstain from alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, illicit drug use (whatever "illicit use" is). In other dietary choices, make healthy choices. It might even illustrate the difficulties in getting a consensus on what the letter of the law is, because I am not sure everyone will agree with my summary here.

Spirit of the law: Promote good health and make choices consistent with good stewardship over our physical bodies. Again, I'm not sure everyone will agree with me, so perhaps part of the problem with these issues is the simple matter of deciding exactly what the letter and spirit of the law are.

 

It is interesting that you used this comparison because...

10 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Perhaps it shows that the "live the letter of the law in the right spirit" is the best answer so far?

To nit pick for the purposes of making a point:  There is no prohibition against alcohol.  There is prohibition against "wine and strong drink" which now includes beer and the like.  Yet it does not include bread (which has a small amount of alcohol) or vanilla extract or kefer soda or...or...or...or...

I'm sure you're aware of all that.  But some people will take that "letter" and extrapolate to include things like vanilla ice cream or chocolate chip cookies.

The point I was making is that sometimes I see those people and think,"What on earth makes them so extreme?"  But other days I consider,"Could they be right?  Do I need to change?"  It's that second question that makes me wonder about this in the first place.

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Funny you should mention walking out for PG movies.  i actually would ask the teacher or substitute to leave class whenever a PG movie was shown.  had a band teacher that was rather fond of Mr Holland's Opus and Forrest Gump - and i spent more than a few days red-faced in the library because of those movies.  :) 

i actually believed that my staying and watching them was a moral failing.  No doubt, i came across as a very self-righteous prick.  In reality, i was just horribly embarrassed.  

The subtle differences between word sets like law and justice, knowledge and wisdom - seem to all point to some kind of an inner acknowledgment that the hard and cold facts have to be fed through something else that is so complex and nuanced that it cannot be fully written or delineated -  to make them come out more reasonable.  i think each of us interprets the so-called cold and hard facts in a way that let us survive without going crazy.  

It's probably better to just validate them and show genuine interest in their point of view, and then be kind and live yourself in the way you believe.  Anything else usually ends up being something their subconscious is blocking out because they simply can't deal with it then, or things that just convince them that you (and by extension your point of view) is mean, cruel, unreasonable, and every other negative term available - and fully deserves to be summarily rejected.

Perhaps let God do the changing, and just try and create a loving environment in which change can happen.  And then perhaps be a little more ready to doubt that we, ourselves, with 1 out of 7-billionth part of the total experiences in this world right now, actually know what ought to be changed for anyone other than ourselves.  

Or if you want to feel what i am trying to say, watch the Bells of St Mary's....

Edited by lostinwater
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1 minute ago, lostinwater said:

had a band teacher that was rather fond of Mr Holland's Opus and Forrest Gump - and i spent more than a few days red-faced in the library because of those movies.  :) 

I never saw either. Forrest Gump was rated R, which put it forever beyond my view. But I heard lots of good things about Mr. Holland's Opus. What did you think would be so objectionable in that movie?

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Well, it seems like the body will be resurrected to its perfect form. I mean if not one hair on the body is lost, I think the assumption is safe for women to still maintain their breasts. :blush:

 

But....what is "perfect"?

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6 minutes ago, Vort said:

I never saw either. Forrest Gump was rated R, which put it forever beyond my view. But I heard lots of good things about Mr. Holland's Opus. What did you think would be so objectionable in that movie?

Just that it had the PG rating label.  i was too focused on the label and how that label related to who i thought i was and who i thought i needed to be to look past it.  Really, i guess that was the problem.  

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