Would you date or marry a woman who had an abortion?

[anatess2]

18 minutes ago, marge said:

No I wouldn't ask that, and if it was asked of me I would leave the situation.  I would be horrified if I found out my son had asked a lady such a question, but I believe I have done a good job as a mother and raised him better than that.

So... just curious... (just because this fascinates me)... so, your son is taught to be polite so he's not to ask these kinds of questions right?  So, how would he know if the girl has cobwebs in her past that might affect the marriage?  Or, is he supposed to just not worry about anything in the past and just marry the girl even if these things might eventually crop up later?  

I didn't teach my kids that lesson.  But then I'm Bisaya - we have a completely different idea of what is "polite".  I did teach my kids to open the door for a woman and carry her bags.  If she takes offense to the gesture, don't marry that woman.... 

 

[Fether]

2 hours ago, marge said:

No I wouldn't ask that

Why?

2 hours ago, marge said:

if it was asked of me I would leave the situation.

Why?

2 hours ago, marge said:

 I would be horrified if I found out my son had asked a lady such a question

Why?

 

2 hours ago, marge said:

I believe I have done a good job as a mother and raised him better than that.

Why?

Edited November 7, 2018 by Fether

[zil]

Fether, reliving the good old days when he was 2:

10 minutes ago, Fether said:

Why?

Why?

Why?

Why?

[Fether]

1 minute ago, zil said:

Fether, reliving the good old days when he was 2:

I never left those good old days

[NeedleinA]

On 11/3/2018 at 5:44 PM, Lost Boy said:

The woman had the abortion before she became a member of the church...What if you never asked and you got married and then found out?

Exact thing happened to me. I found out about 16 yrs into our marriage. Never once crossed my mind to ask. 
If you need me to expand I will, but know that we are still happily married years later with 4 kids of our own and she is a wonderful Primary Pres. right now.

[marge]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Why?

Why?

Why?

 

Why?

I said my point of view, you don't have to like it I don't agree with your view on it and that's fine, I find this why why why why thing pretty childish so I won't engage in it

[marge]

4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So... just curious... (just because this fascinates me)... so, your son is taught to be polite so he's not to ask these kinds of questions right?  So, how would he know if the girl has cobwebs in her past that might affect the marriage?  Or, is he supposed to just not worry about anything in the past and just marry the girl even if these things might eventually crop up later?  

I didn't teach my kids that lesson.  But then I'm Bisaya - we have a completely different idea of what is "polite".  I did teach my kids to open the door for a woman and carry her bags.  If she takes offense to the gesture, don't marry that woman.... 

 

This has nothing to do with teaching him to being polite at all, I think you are mis-understanding me completely.  

My son will more than likely marry someone from our church, who would be a virgin like him, so the question is completely insulting in my mind.  Even if she wasn't a virgin asking someone if they have murdered a person is not an acceptable question to just ask, I think its very insensitive and judgmental.

My church also has pre marital counselling so what ever they need to work out before marriage is part of that counselling.  If something comes up in counselling that can't be worked out or resolved, then they don't have to go ahead with the wedding.  Counselling also deals with a lot of the practical things in marriage too, expectations about to raise children, handle money etc

Edited November 7, 2018 by marge

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, marge said:

I said my point of view, you don't have to like it I don't agree with your view on it and that's fine, I find this why why why why thing pretty childish so I won't engage in it

While he was being a bit jovial, I don't think he was being childish.  The fact is that many people are baffled at your position.  So, asking you "why" is his version of simply asking you to expound a bit.

I'm kinda in the middle on that score.  I can kind of see it.  But at the same time... meh...

 

[marge]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

While he was being a bit jovial, I don't think he was being childish.  The fact is that many people are baffled at your position.  So, asking you "why" is his version of simply asking you to expound a bit.

I'm kinda in the middle on that score.  I can kind of see it.  But at the same time... meh...

 

I think its a rude, horrible, judgmental question to ask a woman, if she has not done it she will be highly insulted and rightly so, and if she has she will be devastated and heartbroken so the question is still awful.  That's my opinion.  I don't see what's so baffling about it.

[Fether]

2 minutes ago, marge said:

I think its a rude, horrible, judgmental question to ask a woman, if she has not done it she will be highly insulted and rightly so, and if she has she will be devastated and heartbroken so the question is still awful.  That's my opinion.  I don't see what's so baffling about it.

Well any young man would be very lucky to be dumped by a woman who is offended at the disgusting sophistry of having open communication in a relationship.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, marge said:

I think its a rude, horrible, judgmental question to ask a woman, if she has not done it she will be highly insulted and rightly so, and if she has she will be devastated and heartbroken so the question is still awful.  That's my opinion.  I don't see what's so baffling about it.

Maybe stick around a while longer.  Carb is right - it was a light-hearted way of asking you to please explain your views.

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, marge said:

I think its a rude, horrible, judgmental question to ask a woman, if she has not done it she will be highly insulted and rightly so, and if she has she will be devastated and heartbroken so the question is still awful.  That's my opinion.  I don't see what's so baffling about it.

You know, the more offended you get at being asked a simple question, the more I don't want to be on your side.

[marge]

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You know, the more offended you get at being asked a simple question, the more I don't want to be on your side.

I'm not offended by being asked a question as to what I think at all.  The why why why why thing did come across as condescending and immature though.

The topic of this thread is about asking a woman if she has had an abortion to decide if she is worthy to date or marry.

I would be horrified and insulted if my husband had ever asked me a question like that in an effort to determine if I was 'marriage material'. And I would have dumped him.  That's my opinion.  I don't see what's so confusing about it.  

If you are going to marry someone you should know their heart, you should know what sort of person they are.  If you know so little about who they really are that you feel the need to ask them if they are a murderer then I don't think you know enough about that person to be entertaining marrying them in the first place.

Edited November 7, 2018 by marge

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, marge said:

The topic of this thread is about asking a woman if she has had an abortion to decide if she is worthy to date or marry..

Actually, not is isn't.  You misread the OP.  It was two things.

1) Would you marry a woman who...  It didn't say anything about having to ask to find out.

2) If you never asked, but found out later, after you were married...

You spoke of your expectation that your son would marry a virgin.  So, therefore...  And that's a fine thing.  It may be that because you have lived your life like that, you would be offended at such a question.  But that wouldn't really be the case in this hypothetical.

How would this actually play out?

A man would not actually ask such a question unless there were some red flags along the way.  If you lived in such a manner that no red flags came up and the man just asked anyway, I can see why you'd be offended at such a question.

But what if there were red flags that showed up?  What if your son saw many red flags with the girl he was dating?  It sounds like you have three options.

1) Drop her.
2) Ask her.
3) Proceed into a marriage with suspicion.

Which of those three would you suggest?

[marge]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Actually, not is isn't.  You misread the OP.  It was two things.

1) Would you marry a woman who...  It didn't say anything about having to ask to find out.

2) If you never asked, but found out later, after you were married...

You spoke of your expectation that your son would marry a virgin.  So, therefore...  And that's a fine thing.  It may be that because you have lived your life like that, you would be offended at such a question.  But that wouldn't really be the case in this hypothetical.

How would this actually play out?

A man would not actually ask such a question unless there were some red flags along the way.  If you lived in such a manner that no red flags came up and the man just asked anyway, I can see why you'd be offended at such a question.

But what if there were red flags that showed up?  What if your son saw many red flags with the girl he was dating?  It sounds like you have three options.

1) Drop her.
2) Ask her.
3) Proceed into a marriage with suspicion.

Which of those three would you suggest?

my first post on this thread simply said 

"As a woman, if someone I was dating asked me a question like that, I'd probably dump them!"

I've had questions after that post as to why I think this way, I've answered them.  

[Vort]

46 minutes ago, marge said:

The topic of this thread is about asking a woman if she has had an abortion to decide if she is worthy to date or marry.

No, it's not. The topic of worthiness was never mentioned. The question was: Would you marry her? (The "you" would ostensibly be a man.) The "worthiness" aspect was purely your (marge) own inference.

47 minutes ago, marge said:

If you are going to marry someone you should know their heart, you should know what sort of person they are.

And how do you find that out? By hiring a private detective to do a background search? Or maybe by, I don't know, talking to them? Asking them questions? You know, that sort of old-fashioned thing?

I never asked my wife if she had had an abortion. She was a 20-year-old virgin when we got engaged. It never occurred to me to ask such a question. But if I were to try to get married at 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 and I had some idea that the object of my affection might have engaged in such activities, sure I'd ask. If you thought it was an important question and could not divine the answer, what kind of a moron would you have to be NOT to ask?

[NightSG]

On 11/3/2018 at 9:24 PM, Carborendum said:

Look above.

The question presupposes actual people.

[NightSG]

On 11/4/2018 at 1:41 AM, Scott said:

Abortion is still forgivable; at least according to our Church leaders:

That only applies to God, not to His self-appointed superiors on here.

[lostinwater]

i think others could understand @marge's point of view a bit better if they were to ask themselves a question like whether or not it is appropriate for a woman to ask a man she was dating sort of seriously who had served in war if he had ever killed someone - and if yes, explain the how, and the why, and where, etc.,.  And maybe under the pretext that she needed to know this information to see if the man could be trusted to correctly discipline any potential children that might come along.  

People have a right to ask such questions - but i wouldn't be too surprised if the person you are asking feels deeply hurt by them, and responds in a way that reflects that hurt.  

[Guest]

7 hours ago, marge said:

my first post on this thread simply said 

"As a woman, if someone I was dating asked me a question like that, I'd probably dump them!"

Moving the goal posts.

You said.

8 hours ago, marge said:

The topic of this thread is about asking a woman if she has had an abortion to decide if she is worthy to date or marry.

Now you're saying

7 hours ago, marge said:

my first post on this thread simply said

If you want to change topics, that's fine.  I do it all the time.  But when there are misunderstandings, we have to take a look and see how we got there.

7 hours ago, marge said:

I've had questions after that post as to why I think this way, I've answered them.  

Yes, you have.  And I thank you.  I think you've made that position clear.  And I actually agree with you when I see it from where you're coming from.  But is that all you wanted?  You wanted to be clear on YOUR position?

Part of participating in an open forum is to also understand OTHER people's point of view.  Are you not interested in understanding others?

Edited November 7, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

6 hours ago, lostinwater said:

i think others could understand @marge's point of view a bit better if they were to ask themselves a question like whether or not it is appropriate for a woman to ask a man she was dating sort of seriously who had served in war if he had ever killed someone - and if yes, explain the how, and the why, and where, etc.,.  And maybe under the pretext that she needed to know this information to see if the man could be trusted to correctly discipline any potential children that might come along.  

People have a right to ask such questions - but i wouldn't be too surprised if the person you are asking feels deeply hurt by them, and responds in a way that reflects that hurt.  

I understand it perfectly.  I even agree with it.  But her position and the OP don't actually cross.  We're still talking about the OP.  She threw in her position that is only tangentially associated with it.  That's where, I think, the misunderstanding comes from.

The OP presupposes that the woman had an abortion.  With that comes the fact that she was no longer a virgin.  Because of the wording of the OP, the implication was that it was an elective abortion, and it was not due to rape, incest, or life-threatening conditions.  IOW, she voluntarily had sex and voluntarily decided to terminate the pregnancy for convenience rather than other reasons.

With such a person, there would be tell-tale signs that some things were wrong.  In such a background, it might actually be fairly natural for such a question to come up.  In conversations she might drop the fact that she had to confess some things to her priest about her relationship with boys.

In Marge's case, she has been a virtuous woman all her life.  There would be NOTHING that would indicate that she would even be capable of such a thing.  So, WHY ON EARTH would anyone bring up such a question?  That's a very good question.  I don't think you ask such a question unless there is some sort of red flag that came up during courtship.  With Marge, there would be no red flag.  So, it wouldn't and shouldn't come up. 

But with the woman in this hypothetical question, there probably would be some red flags.  And with such such red flags, I find it foolish to believe that it would still be insulting in that situation.  How can you be insulted by the idea that you had fornicated, when you all but admit that you did?  That doesn't make sense.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

5 hours ago, NightSG said:

The question presupposes actual people.

You misunderstood "above".

[Lost Boy]

11 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Exact thing happened to me. I found out about 16 yrs into our marriage. Never once crossed my mind to ask. 
If you need me to expand I will, but know that we are still happily married years later with 4 kids of our own and she is a wonderful Primary Pres. right now.

When you found out, was it a bit of a blow? If it was, how did you deal with it? 

[Just_A_Guy]

6 hours ago, lostinwater said:

i think others could understand @marge's point of view a bit better if they were to ask themselves a question like whether or not it is appropriate for a woman to ask a man she was dating sort of seriously who had served in war if he had ever killed someone - and if yes, explain the how, and the why, and where, etc.,.  And maybe under the pretext that she needed to know this information to see if the man could be trusted to correctly discipline any potential children that might come along.  

People have a right to ask such questions - but i wouldn't be too surprised if the person you are asking feels deeply hurt by them, and responds in a way that reflects that hurt.  

I (think I) understand (I’m  a little unclear as to whether @marge‘s position is that it’s none of a spouse’s business, or merely that you shouldn’t have to ask because the partner’s character should make it beyond question that they’d ever have historically done such a thing.  But I’m sure she can clarify).

But my response to your question would be:  heck yeah, a woman needs to know if her fiancé has killed anyone; even in wartime.  It’s not something that needs to come up on a first date, of course; but it’s something that should be discussed before the wedding.  I am frankly appalled that anyone would seriously think “yeah, I killed some people; but my spouse doesn’t have a right to know about that, because I deem the killings justified and my judgment should be good enough that the little woman doesn’t need to worry her pretty little head about it . . .”

Marriage is hard enough without bringing baggage like this into it; and people should at least know what they’re getting into. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I (think I) understand (I’m  a little unclear as to whether @marge‘s position is that it’s none of a spouse’s business, or merely that you shouldn’t have to ask because the partner’s character should make it beyond question that they’d ever have historically done such a thing.  But I’m sure she can clarify).

While I certainly can't speak for Marge, I was operating under the impression that it was about the character speaking for itself.  That side I agreed with.  It was simply that the OP was talking about a different type of woman.