Self-defense poll for US Saints


NeuroTypical
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Self defense poll for US Saints only  

39 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you, or someone close to you, have a current conceal-carry permit?

    • Yes
      27
    • No
      8
    • I live outside the US, but I must say you people scare me.
      4
  2. 2. For those of you who carry, how often do you carry?

    • Rarely or never
      9
    • Occasionally
      9
    • Regularly/often
      14
    • I'm not in the US, but no really, you people are scaring me. Why is this poll even here?
      7
  3. 3. Have you ever carried in church?

    • Yes
      12
    • No
      20
    • (Person from outside the US unable to answer, having passed out from fear of their crazy US brethren)
      7


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37 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Believe me, I wish we lived in a world where saying "You leave us alone or I'm telling" worked-but criminals often need a bit more "persuasion" to act in a polite manner. 

Hi Gator,  I always enjoy your comments.  Just a thought on this and your mass shooter comment.  Don’t most mass shooters end up killing themselves or engaging in hopeless shootouts with police (or others) that they know will result in their death.  Since that’s the case, I’m not sure anyone being armed changes a mass shooter’s behavior.  

That said, as I mentioned above, I have no issue with someone who owns a gun.

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8 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Hi Gator,  I always enjoy your comments. ]

Thanks bud, really appreciate you saying that. 

 

8 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

 Since that’s the case, I’m not sure anyone being armed changes a mass shooter’s behavior.  

It doesn't, but more people, properly trained, might stop them from killing more innocent people. 

Edited by MormonGator
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1 hour ago, Scott said:

No, I did not see it.

His statement was that the Brethren chose the word "inappropriate" on purpose.  It was never meant to be an outright ban.  (his words).

The strictness with which this statement in the handbook is applied is to be administered at a local level considering the general guideline of being discouraged.

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7 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Hi Gator,  I always enjoy your comments.  Just a thought on this and your mass shooter comment.  Don’t most mass shooters end up killing themselves or engaging in hopeless shootouts with police (or others) that they know will result in their death.  Since that’s the case, I’m not sure anyone being armed changes a mass shooter’s behavior.  

That said, as I mentioned above, I have no issue with someone who owns a gun.

The recent incident at a McDonald's proves without a doubt that it does change a mass shooter's behavior.  It is even more so in a place where the mass shooter planned on not having anybody shoot back.

Edited by anatess2
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4 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Don’t most mass shooters end up killing themselves or engaging in hopeless shootouts with police (or others) that they know will result in their death.

That hasn't been the case in a great majority of cases.

4 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

 Since that’s the case,

Well, that's not the case.

4 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I’m not sure anyone being armed changes a mass shooter’s behavior.  

Have you not noticed that the great majority of mass shootings take place in gun free zones or areas where guns are less likely to be around?  Mass shooters like soft targets.  Don't believe me?

Go live in a high crime neighborhood.  Place a sign out front that says,"I own several guns and know how to use them.  But my neighbor owns no guns."  See what happens.

I'm kidding.  Don't actually do that.  But someone supposedly did this.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/london-ky/TGUHOQB48HP8AMGUR/my-neighbor-is-very-upset-with-my-yard-sign

Quote

Ralph, my neighbor is a "lefty" of sorts.(Obama bumper stickers, gung-ho socialized medicine, "guns should be banned", etc.).

So last week I put this sign up in my yard after one of his anti-gun rants at a neighborhood cocktail party. The sign wasn't up more than an hour before he called the police and wanted them to make me take down the sign.

Fortunately, the officer politely informed him that it was not their job to take such action without a court order and that he had to file a complaint "downtown" first, which would be reviewed by the city attorney to see if it violated any city, county, or state ordinances.

If there was a violation, a court order would be sent to the offending party (me) to "remove the sign in seven days".

After several weeks he was informed that the sign was legal (by a quarter of an inch) and there was nothing the city could do, which obviously made him madder.. I tried to smooth things over by inviting him to go shooting with me and my friends at the hunt club but that seemed to make him even more angry.

I then asked him if he wanted to go to a Tea Party rally, but again he declined my outreach efforts to bring about a better understanding between political and social opponents. I am at a loss how to reconcile our long relationship (notice I did not say friendship).

My sign says: "My next door neighbor wants to ban all guns. His house is unarmed. Out of respect for their opinions, I promise not to use my guns to PROTECT THEM".

I say "supposedly" because I don't see anything like this verified by any police reports or such.  But it went viral a while back.

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58 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Hi Gator,  I always enjoy your comments.  Just a thought on this and your mass shooter comment.  Don’t most mass shooters end up killing themselves or engaging in hopeless shootouts with police (or others) that they know will result in their death.  Since that’s the case, I’m not sure anyone being armed changes a mass shooter’s behavior.  

That said, as I mentioned above, I have no issue with someone who owns a gun.

Most mass killers stop when confronted with an armed opponent, whether that is a police officer or armed citizen.

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37 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That hasn't been the case in a great majority of cases.

Well, that's not the case.

Have you not noticed that the great majority of mass shootings take place in gun free zones or areas where guns are less likely to be around?  Mass shooters like soft targets.  Don't believe me?

Go live in a high crime neighborhood.  Place a sign out front that says,"I own several guns and know how to use them.  But my neighbor owns no guns."  See what happens.

I'm kidding.  Don't actually do that.  But someone supposedly did this.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/london-ky/TGUHOQB48HP8AMGUR/my-neighbor-is-very-upset-with-my-yard-sign

I say "supposedly" because I don't see anything like this verified by any police reports or such.  But it went viral a while back.

A couple of thoughts.

My impression is that mass shooting sites seems to have much more to do with a shooter’s background and agenda...students shooters choose schools, hate crime shooters choose sites where they find those they hate...that’s true even when their background involves hard targets, i.e. shootings at military bases.

Based on what I know of you from this site, I think you’d be a fine neighbor.  If you were my neighbor I’d have no problem with you putting up a sign directed to me.  Of course for it to be accurate, it would have to say.  “I own several guns and know how to use them.  My neighbor owns no guns, but has no issue with me owning mine.  Out of respect for his wishes I’ve promised not to use my guns to protect him.  But, of course, I can’t say I always keep my promises.”

l’d leave it to you as to whether you want to include the last sentence. 😀

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20 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Anything to help! 

Gosh!  I love you!

Please note that this is not intended to be romantic in anyway and should not be construed as an overture of such affection.

Edited by Guest
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33 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

A couple of thoughts.

My impression is that mass shooting sites seems to have much more to do with a shooter’s background and agenda...students shooters choose schools, hate crime shooters choose sites where they find those they hate...that’s true even when their background involves hard targets, i.e. shootings at military bases.

And where do you get that impression from?

The military bases, yes.  Fort Hood was a military attack on a military target. Tah Dah.  Big surprise.

Columbine?  Nope.  They actually felt like outcasts wherever they went.  School was just another place they spent a lot of time.

Sandy Hook?  Nope.  He was just crazy and wanted a soft target.

Aurora, CO theater?  Nope.  He was just crazy and wanted a soft target.

Las Vegas concert?  Nope.  He was just crazy and wanted a soft target.

Gay Night Club?  Yes, for motivation of target.  But he chose the location because it was a soft target.

Virginia Tech?  No idea.

Sutherland Springs?  Could argue he was mad at his Mother-in-law.  But it would have been simple enough to go to her home and kill her.  Why this public, soft target?  Why?  I just can't figure that out?  Why a soft target?

Austin, TX? He was just crazy and wanted to go in a blaze of glory.

We could go on.  But the fact is that your impression is correct for SOME cases.  And except for the military targets, most are soft targets with lots of people that are like fish in a barrel.

33 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Based on what I know of you from this site, I think you’d be a fine neighbor.  If you were my neighbor I’d have no problem with you putting up a sign directed to me.  Of course for it to be accurate, it would have to say.  “I own several guns and know how to use them.  My neighbor owns no guns, but has no issue with me owning mine.  Out of respect for his wishes I’ve promised not to use my guns to protect him.  But, of course, I can’t say I always keep my promises.”

l’d leave it to you as to whether you want to include the last sentence. 😀

Hey, if you don't have a problem with me carrying, I'd be happy to use it to protect you if you want.  But I wouldn't "force" it on you if it bothers you that badly.

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32 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Please note that this is not intended to be romantic in anyway and should not be construed as an overture of such affection.

I'm telling Mrs. @Carborendum

You see dude, the key to polygamy is being open with all the wives. I think that wives/girlfriends tend to get irritated when you do it the other way.  

Edited by MormonGator
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21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And where do you get that impression from?

The military bases, yes.  Fort Hood was a military attack on a military target. Tah Dah.  Big surprise.

Columbine?  Nope.  They actually felt like outcasts wherever they went.  School was just another place they spent a lot of time.

Sandy Hook?  Nope.  He was just crazy and wanted a soft target.

Aurora, CO theater?  Nope.  He was just crazy and wanted a soft target.

Las Vegas concert?  Nope.  He was just crazy and wanted a soft target.

Gay Night Club?  Yes, for motivation of target.  But he chose the location because it was a soft target.

Virginia Tech?  No idea.

Sutherland Springs?  Could argue he was mad at his Mother-in-law.  But it would have been simple enough to go to her home and kill her.  Why this public, soft target?  Why?  I just can't figure that out?  Why a soft target?

Austin, TX? He was just crazy and wanted to go in a blaze of glory.

We could go on.  But the fact is that your impression is correct for SOME cases.  And except for the military targets, most are soft targets with lots of people that are like fish in a barrel.

Hey, if you don't have a problem with me carrying, I'd be happy to use it to protect you if you want.  But I wouldn't "force" it on you if it bothers you that badly.

I appreciate you being willing to respect my wishes.

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4 hours ago, Scott said:

I am surprised by results of question #3.  Unless you are in law enforcement and carrying at church is required, carrying to church is against Church policy.

21.2.4

Firearms

Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.

I've noticed three kinds of responses from my fellow 2nd amendment enthusiasts (for lack of a better term - sounds better than 'gun nutter'):

1- "I can live with being found "inappropriate" at the last day.  Totally willing to meet my maker with such a label.  Doesn't even rise to the level of 'sin' in my book."

2- "I've checked with my bishop and he's fine with me carrying, so I often do."

3- "The priesthood is more powerful than a pistol, and I sustain our leaders, so yes, I follow this policy."

 

I guess I've encountered all three kinds of responses in equal proportions, so I'm not too surprised at the results so far.

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3 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Don’t most mass shooters end up killing themselves or engaging in hopeless shootouts with police (or others) that they know will result in their death.  Since that’s the case, I’m not sure anyone being armed changes a mass shooter’s behavior.  

From what I've read, yes, many/most mass killers go into the thing with an understanding they won't be coming out alive.  So they tend to keep on killing until he/she is finally opposed by a good guy with a gun.   The New Life Church incident in my neck of the woods is a perfect example.  Bad guy shot up Denver and wasn't stopped.  Then he drove down to Colorado Springs and started shooting up the church.  A concealed-carry permit holder started firing back, so dood dove behind cover and killed himself.  So yeah, the body count probably would have been higher except for that random good guy with a gun.

This pattern seems to happen a lot.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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7 hours ago, let’s roll said:

My viewpoint is best illustrated by the experience of President Oaks when he and his wife were carjacked/mugged at gunpoint (related in his profile in the latest Ensign).  I can’t imagine ever owning, carrying or using a gun and I’ve lived in East LA and NY.

My viewpoint is best illustrated by Joseph Smith when he was set upon and killed by a mob at Carthage jail.

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5 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Hi Gator,  I always enjoy your comments.  Just a thought on this and your mass shooter comment.  Don’t most mass shooters end up killing themselves or engaging in hopeless shootouts with police (or others) that they know will result in their death.  Since that’s the case, I’m not sure anyone being armed changes a mass shooter’s behavior. 

Yes, but they tend to choose targets where they know people are less likely to be armed. 

Edit: I see this has already been addressed by others.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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34 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

My viewpoint is best illustrated by Joseph Smith when he was set upon and killed by a mob at Carthage jail.

And I think both viewpoints are valid which is why I appreciated NeuroTypical’s response to my first post on this thread stating that the gospel pavilion is big enough for a variety of views on this topic.

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As a Canadian, I have different rules to abide and concealed carry permits are not allowed for civilians if I understand the current state of affairs correctly, so owning a gun is really only for hunting or shooting targets. Self Defense usage is a gray area all around as we don't even allow pepper spray to be carried, and while bear spray is legal, it is not legal to use for self defense against humans - just bears. To my understanding, by the numbers, having a gun in the home in Canada is far more likely to end the life of a loved one by suicide or accident than to ever prevent a crime in the home. I grew up in a home with firearms and have a dad who felt it was important to teach his children how to shoot, however, unless we were out shooting targets the firing pins were removed and the ammo locked up - so we'd never have been able to access them reasonably for defense in the home other than to butt someone with the stock or to bluff. 

With all of that as background information, I haven't really felt like it would be worth the time and expense to get licensed to have a firearm in my home that I would also feel the need to keep unloaded with the safety in place locked away with the firing pin removed just so I can occasionally enjoy target shooting. Instead, I have two air rifles for target shooting and have dedicated many hours of my life to hand to hand defense and continue to learn ways to make my home and family less inviting targets. 

So to the questions above:

1. No. It isn't legal for me to do so. However, I find no fault or craziness in those who are allowed to do so choosing to.

2. Disqualified from giving any answer, but had to choose one to submit. Not living in the US seemed the most appropriate, but I still don't find the idea of packing insane or disturbing for a law-abiding citizen.

3.Again disqualified from answering on account of not carrying - not being US seems most accurate, but didn't pass out in the process.

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I find it odd that so many here have carried in church.  What is the chance of there being a mass shooting in an LDS church?  Very low.  What is the chance of you being in that particular church if it ever does happen?  Much lower.  You have far greater chance dying in a car accident going to and returning from church.

If I am taken to heaven while attending church, then that is where my maker wants me.  Things don't happen by chance.  The man upstairs knows the end from the beginning.

And while I would never take away the right to carry, I won't carry and trust the Lord is watching over us.

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3 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I find it odd that so many here have carried in church.  What is the chance of there being a mass shooting in an LDS church?  Very low.  What is the chance of you being in that particular church if it ever does happen?  Much lower.  You have far greater chance dying in a car accident going to and returning from church.

If I am taken to heaven while attending church, then that is where my maker wants me.  Things don't happen by chance.  The man upstairs knows the end from the beginning.

And while I would never take away the right to carry, I won't carry and trust the Lord is watching over us.

I feel more or less as you do.  But I suspect that, sooner or later, a mass shooting is going to happen in an LDS Church (maybe even inside a temple); and it’ll be interesting to see what Church policies change as a result.  

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7 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

3.Again disqualified from answering on account of not carrying - not being US seems most accurate, but didn't pass out in the process.

Are you kidding me?  I thought I heard the clanking of your CTR shield as it hit the floor all the way up there in TGWN.  I had PTSD from the noise, man!

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22 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I find it odd that so many here have carried in church.  What is the chance of there being a mass shooting in an LDS church?  Very low.  What is the chance of you being in that particular church if it ever does happen?  Much lower.  You have far greater chance dying in a car accident going to and returning from church.

If I am taken to heaven while attending church, then that is where my maker wants me.  Things don't happen by chance.  The man upstairs knows the end from the beginning.

And while I would never take away the right to carry, I won't carry and trust the Lord is watching over us.

I didn't realize we were playing a lottery.

Look, with safety, with being prepared. We don't usually play this game of "what are the chances of a fire, you don't *need* that extinguisher" We just take reasonable safety precautions against the unlikely but devastating such as a fire, or being attacked by a rampant gunman in a public place.

My house is not likely to catch on fire, and to defeat my point I actually don't have a fire extinguisher, ha!

I'm unlikely to get shot tomorrow, and again, I actually don't own a gun, haha.

But that's because I'm in debt and I need to pay that off before I go buy fancy things like guns and fire extinguishers. I probably had a point but now I'm just rambling incoherently and contradicting myself.

Edited by jerome1232
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7 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I find it odd that so many here have carried in church.  What is the chance of there being a mass shooting in an LDS church?  Very low.  What is the chance of you being in that particular church if it ever does happen?  Much lower.  You have far greater chance dying in a car accident going to and returning from church.

If I am taken to heaven while attending church, then that is where my maker wants me.  Things don't happen by chance.  The man upstairs knows the end from the beginning.

And while I would never take away the right to carry, I won't carry and trust the Lord is watching over us.

You are making a false assumption that we carry because we expect a mass shooting at our church or that somehow having a gun is there to protect us or others.  That's not why we carry.  Actually, I think that's why NT carries.  But that's not why I carry.  Nor is it why many others do.

We carry because it is as natural as putting our wallets in our pockets.  It's what we do.  It's not like we're even conscious of it.  It's what we do.  Put your pants on.  It's what we do.  Put a belt on.  It's what we do.  Put a shirt on.  It's what we do.  Get your wallet, keys, and weapon.  It's what we do.

Do you actually put your wallet in your pocket thinking,"OK.  So, when I get pulled over by a cop today, I'll have my license ready."  I don't think so.  You just do it.

Do you really believe that every time I place my gun in my holster that I'm thinking,"Alright, so when the bad guy comes in, I'll be sure to get him right between the eyes."  Do you realize how deluded & agoraphobic someone would have to be to say that to themselves every day?  If you're a cop, maybe.  Because that is an occupational thing.  But the average carrier doesn't do so.  They just pick it up as instinctively as picking up your keys and wallet.

That's why it doesn't effect our worship service at all.  We aren't thinking about it any more than we think about our wallet or keys.

And your analogy about car accidents is appropriate as well.  How often do you think about car accidents while driving?  Every time you get too close to another car or object that could hurt you, right.  What about on a country road where there really isn't much traffic?  I bet you never think about it in that condition.

Likewise, when you're in a peaceful setting, you just don't think about your weapon.  But if you were to go into a bad part of town, you may think about it more.  And the truth is that the gun actually makes you think,"Do I REALLY need to go there?" It will make a responsible person even more responsible.

Carrying is a responsibility as much as it is protection and a right.  When I took my handgun class, they really emphasized the legal ramifications and the responsibilities of carrying a gun.  This was done so well, that I had to consider for a long time before I would apply for my license.  Did I really want that responsibility?  When I considered driving my car was just as much of a responsibility (you now have the power to kill someone) I realized I already had that responsibility.

Edited by Guest
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8 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I find it odd that so many here have carried in church.  What is the chance of there being a mass shooting in an LDS church?  Very low.  What is the chance of you being in that particular church if it ever does happen?  Much lower.  You have far greater chance dying in a car accident going to and returning from church.

If I am taken to heaven while attending church, then that is where my maker wants me.  Things don't happen by chance.  The man upstairs knows the end from the beginning.

And while I would never take away the right to carry, I won't carry and trust the Lord is watching over us.

Keep in mind that the question didn't include "on Sunday during the 3-hour block".  I doubt I've carried then.  I took the question as "inside the church building", and I suspect some others did as well.

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Carrying is a responsibility as much as it is protection and a right.  When I took my handgun class, they really emphasized the legal ramifications and the responsibilities of carrying a gun.  This was done so well, that I had to consider for a long time before I would apply for my license.  Did I really want that responsibility? 

Plus, it's not like a gun is an Erlenmeyer flask or something.  Thank heaven the great state of Texas doesn't let just anyone buy those!

cole-parmer-elements-3450256-erlenmeyer-

Edited by zil
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