Self-defense poll for US Saints

[anatess2]

16 hours ago, jdf135 said:

I guess I'm the only LDS who thinks there are unhealthily gun-obsessed people or that carrying death machines all over the place may not be safe.   I have heard about the 2nd amendment.  I seem to recall it says something about "organized" militia.   Regardless, I will resign myself to the apparent fact that I am the only "Mormon" who believes there are just too many disorganized minds in this world carrying too many crazy death tools in disorganized ways (sigh).  

This is the crux of the argument.  We have COMPLETELY DIFFERENT views of a firearm.  You think firearm you think "death tool".  It's the exact same as thinking "car" you think "Death tool".  I don't know the statistics but cars have killed a lot of people - a lot of them children.  So, why do you still have a car?

My 15-year-old looks at his firearm, he thinks "Olympics".

My husband looks at his firearm, he thinks "Food, Defense".  And by the way, defense does not have to mean Death.

Now, criminals - yeah, they'll kill you with anything - guns, bombs, pressure cookers, fertilizers, trucks...  so, why should my son's Olympics and my husband's Food, Defense have to be sacrificed because a criminal (a very small minority of gun owners) use their guns to kill people?  Do you want pressure cookers, fertilizers, and trucks thrown out too?  Why not?

And I'm going to go back to snakes... because this is the exact same phobic view.  People think snakes and they think "KILL IT!".  My kids think snakes, they think... pet!  Or... lovely creatures important to our ecosystem.

Edited November 7, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Colirio said:

As someone who has been trained and has done the training for these types of situations, I can somewhat understand the hesitation some people have with armed citizens trying to deal with these situations. Even highly trained professionals make the wrong call sometimes in how to respond.

Interesting that you responded to this.  I had no idea you were in law enforcement or training thereof.  When I wrote about people with divine protction, I was also considering Ammon among them.  And your avatar...

[NeuroTypical]

17 hours ago, let’s roll said:

I was in a laundromat when a man robbed a woman after brandishing a weapon.  He had her purse in hand when I stepped in front of him, took hold of the purse and said, you don’t want to do this.  He let go of the purse and I stood aside.

i was in a grocery store parking lot when I saw a woman being robbed at knife point about 30 yards away from me. I started walking towards them and about half way there made eye contact with the robber.  I kept walking towards them and when I was about 5 or 6 steps away he turned towards me briefly, knife in hand and then turned and ran.

 

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I've spent some time wondering why was @let’s roll protected?  And, let's be as honest as @MormonGator.  Most of us were wondering if he made it up.  I honestly don't know.  But I have now come to the conclusion that it is highly believable.  But I don't think he had "protection" (in the traditional sense). Here's why.

 

For me, the explanation is simple.  Both instances had robbers picking women.  Any good robber looks for a soft, easy target.  They don't want a fight, they want money/stuff.  Robbers aren't killers if they can help it, the same way that you and I aren't killers if we can help it.   I'm just guessing here, but both robbers might well have passed over a dozen or more other female targets before picking these women.  I'm guessing these women were showing signs of being an easy target.   (Not saying they are bad people, just looking at the situation from the eyes of the armed robbers.)   So, up comes a guy forcing a confrontation, and the armed robbers end the encounter.  They probably moved a few blocks over, waited an hour or two, and started looking for the next victim.  I figure the most likely explanation isn't that there was any divine intervention or special protection - just lazy robbers who like easy targets with no complications.  

(Now, I'm specifically sayingthat @let’s roll IS a good person who did the right thing here.  Bad guys looking for soft targets are intimidated by direct eye contact and self-assurance, maybe even more than they are big muscles and tallness and whatever.)

Edited November 7, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[anatess2]

37 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 

 

For me, the explanation is simple.  Both instances had robbers picking women.  Any good robber looks for a soft, easy target.  They don't want a fight, they want money/stuff.  Robbers aren't killers if they can help it, the same way that you and I aren't killers if we can't help it.   I'm just guessing here, but both robbers might well have passed over a dozen or more other female targets before picking these women.  I'm guessing these women were showing signs of being an easy target.   (Not saying they are bad people, just looking at the situation from the eyes of the armed robbers.)   So, up comes a guy forcing a confrontation, and the armed robbers end the encounter.  They probably moved a few blocks over, waited an hour or two, and started looking for the next victim.  I figure the most likely explanation isn't that there was any divine intervention or special protection - just lazy robbers who like easy targets with no complications.  

(Now, I'm specifically sayingthat @let’s roll IS a good person who did the right thing here.  Bad guys looking for soft targets are intimidated by direct eye contact and self-assurance, maybe even more than they are big muscles and tallness and whatever.)

If @let’s roll was a responsible concealed carrier, like my husband for example, he would still have done the same thing and the outcome would still have been the same thing.  The weapon would remain sheathed and unused.

Where @let’s roll is put at a disadvantage is if... like what happens a lot of times in the Philippines... you are faced with a desperate robber.  These robbers are either starting to get withdrawal symptoms from having no money to buy their next drug hit, or the robbers are under quota by their ISIS/NPA/Communist masters and would be killed if they come back empty-handed, or they're ideologically supportive of these masters, etc. and they are willing to kill you to get to that purse.  If you trust you can incapacitate them with hand-to-hand combat then that's what you do.  If that doesn't work, using a weapon to incapacitate the robber is an option open to you.  If you're Jackie Chan, there would be a pipe or bamboo or chair or something conveniently placed that you can use to incapacitate the robber.  We are not all Jackie Chan.  You can use your firearm without having to kill the other guy unless it becomes absolutely necessary.

This is what happened at the McDonald's... the guy walked in shooting his weapon.  A father with 2 children was walking out... guy shot the father and one of his children but not fatally.  Father didn't hesitate - he pulled his weapon and shot the guy dead.  So here you have 2 firearms - one used to commit a crime, the other used to defend people from the crime.  We can discuss if it was absolutely necessary to kill the guy.  But the fact remains... the problem is not the weapon.  The problem is the criminal.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by anatess2

[Colirio]

29 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Interesting that you responded to this.  I had no idea you were in law enforcement or training thereof.  When I wrote about people with divine protction, I was also considering Ammon among them.  And your avatar...

 

Private contractor for Homeland Security and was (at one point) working on a criminal justice degree. I was requested multiple times to take a job with the state of Utah to work with adult probation and parole as a result of going with them on their in-home visits so often. (At their requests.) In the end, I felt that Heavenly Father wanted me in a different profession and so I moved on from government work. 

 

In terms of divine protection, for the five years I worked with the government, I never once had a physical altercation. I was the only one with my company who didn't. Drug arrests, removal of perps from properties, armed offenders, and some very dangerous situations, but it was always resolved with talking. (And sometimes yelling...) I never even had to draw my firearm. Although I was a combatives instructor, the Lord always blessed me to de-escalate the situation with words. 

 

I have my concealed carry permit and do carry on occasion, but when I bought the gun I prayed and felt that I would never need to use it. 

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, Colirio said:

 

Private contractor for Homeland Security and was (at one point) working on a criminal justice degree. I was requested multiple times to take a job with the state of Utah to work with adult probation and parole as a result of going with them on their in-home visits so often. (At their requests.) In the end, I felt that Heavenly Father wanted me in a different profession and so I moved on from government work. 

 

In terms of divine protection, for the five years I worked with the government, I never once had a physical altercation. I was the only one with my company who didn't. Drug arrests, removal of perps from properties, armed offenders, and some very dangerous situations, but it was always resolved with talking. (And sometimes yelling...) I never even had to draw my firearm. Although I was a combatives instructor, the Lord always blessed me to de-escalate the situation with words. 

 

I have my concealed carry permit and do carry on occasion, but when I bought the gun I prayed and felt that I would never need to use it. 

You have a fascinating background.

I was a Justice Administration undergrad (thought I might go into criminal law, ended up a litigator and corporate lawyer) and did an internship with Adult Probation and Parole.  The parole officer I worked with took me on lots of what he jokingly referred to as home teaching visits— warrantless, no-knock searches of parolee places of residence, looking for guns, drugs, porn (for sex offenders). 

He had the same gift you seem to have to be able to de-escalate with words...although most parolees were astute enough to know if they acted out their parole could be revoked, so they were generally very deferential.

[NeuroTypical]

You guys are both cool.  All I did was help put a felon behind bars for 5-life, and worry about what he might want to do to my wife and kids when he got out. 

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

You guys are both cool.  All I did was help put a felon behind bars for 5-life, and worry about what he might want to do to my wife and kids when he got out. 

You all are.  All I did was send my kids to their room for a time out.

[zil]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

All I did was send my kids to their room for a time out.

Hmm.  All I did was lecture myself about how if I was too lazy to go to the store and get ice cream I couldn't have any ice cream for dessert.

Edited November 7, 2018 by zil

[NeuroTypical]

Although I just can't understand how people are so anti-gun.  Guns just solve so many problems!

[mirkwood]

All I did was take a gun off the streets yesterday.  

 

[anatess2]

I got you all beat.  All I did was campaign for elections every year.

Well, you really wouldn't know how much tougher it was when I stomped instead of the internet days where I can sit in the luxury of my couch and campaign online.  And that's not counting that only 35 were killed and 47 injured related to this year's election.  Those are waaaaay rookie numbers.

[NightSG]

On 11/5/2018 at 4:00 PM, mirkwood said:

I carry a Glock 17 and a reload ALL the time, except on duty, then I carry two reloads, plus all the extras in the vehicle. 

Maybe someday they'll even let you carry a real gun.

Best thing about a 1911 is that you don't have to remember to put it in the top rack of the dishwasher to keep it from melting.

[anatess2]

15 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Best thing about a 1911 is that you don't have to remember to put it in the top rack of the dishwasher to keep it from melting.

You know, that's what my son said about his 1911!  And it's AIRSOFT!  

By the way... the really weird thing which caused my husband and I to have an argument about that 1911 was the thing did not come with an orange tip. 

[NeuroTypical]

12 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Best thing about a 1911 is that you don't have to remember to put it in the top rack of the dishwasher to keep it from melting...

#fakenews

 

[zil]

1 hour ago, mirkwood said:

All I did was take a gun off the streets yesterday. 

Oh!  Thank heaven you found it!  I couldn't figure out for the life of me where I dropped it. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, zil said:

Oh!  Thank heaven you found it!  I couldn't figure out for the life of me where I dropped it. 

You say that like he's going to give it back to you.  Finders keepers.

[SpiritDragon]

7 hours ago, let’s roll said:

You have a fascinating background.

I was a Justice Administration undergrad (thought I might go into criminal law, ended up a litigator and corporate lawyer) and did an internship with Adult Probation and Parole.  The parole officer I worked with took me on lots of what he jokingly referred to as home teaching visits— warrantless, no-knock searches of parolee places of residence, looking for guns, drugs, porn (for sex offenders). 

He had the same gift you seem to have to be able to de-escalate with words...although most parolees were astute enough to know if they acted out their parole could be revoked, so they were generally very deferential.

6 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

You guys are both cool.  All I did was help put a felon behind bars for 5-life, and worry about what he might want to do to my wife and kids when he got out. 

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You all are.  All I did was send my kids to their room for a time out.

5 hours ago, zil said:

Hmm.  All I did was lecture myself about how if I was too lazy to go to the store and get ice cream I couldn't have any ice cream for dessert.

4 hours ago, mirkwood said:

All I did was take a gun off the streets yesterday.  

4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I got you all beat.  All I did was campaign for elections every year.

Well, you really wouldn't know how much tougher it was when I stomped instead of the internet days where I can sit in the luxury of my couch and campaign online.  And that's not counting that only 35 were killed and 47 injured related to this year's election.  Those are waaaaay rookie numbers.

 

 

 

 

I'm used to seeing one-upmanship, but not such one-downmanship. I feel like this turned into a humility contest. When I win I'll thank you all for recognizing that I'm at least 40 times more humble than all of you 😉

Joking aside, you really have all done important things which help make the world a better place. Whether it be campaigning for better governance, enforcing the laws that exist, teaching discipline to children to avoid future criminals, making important food decisions 😄 @zil, or stopping armed robberies in progress! I'm a little more glad to know you all today than I was yesterday.

[pwrfrk]

I don't need a gun.  Jesus will protect me.

 

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

I don't need a gun.  Jesus will protect me.

 

So, there was this guy who got shipwrecked on an island.  He prayed to God to save him.  One day, he stumbled on a boat on the island.  He thought to himself, "This boat is very dangerous, I could end up dead in the middle of the ocean.  I have faith that God will save me."  The guy eventually died.  So he railed at God, "God, why have you abandoned me!"  And God said, "I sent you a boat, how did you expect me to save you?".

[Highlander]

I dislike this poll. I live outside the US and my only option is that I think you guys are crazy. There should be an option that I wish I didn't have an unarmed populace. In Australia we have next to no gun rights and I think that's scary.

[anatess2]

On 11/10/2018 at 6:59 PM, Highlander said:

I dislike this poll. I live outside the US and my only option is that I think you guys are crazy. There should be an option that I wish I didn't have an unarmed populace. In Australia we have next to no gun rights and I think that's scary.

Contrary to popular opinion, you can own firearms in Australia.  And it's not that difficult to do either.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Contrary to popular opinion, you can own firearms in Australia.  And it's not that difficult to do either.

HuH???

I've known a man who was a bodyguard in Australia.  He spent the better part of a year trying to get permission to carry one.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Guest

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

HuH???

I've known a man who was a bodyguard in Australia.  He spent the better part of a year trying to get permission to carry one.

Yes.  The permitting process is at least 6 months (even if you clear investigations in under 6 months, you still have to wait at least 6 months because of that mandatory waiting period).  The application process is not difficult.  It simply takes time.

[askandanswer]

I don't know much about these things, but I believe that the process for getting a handgun is much more difficult than getting a rifle or shot-gun and there are fairly strict limitations on the kind of gun you can buy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia