Goals + Abraham + Scrum

[zil]

(Sorry.  I made it as short as possible, but no shorter, so it's long.)

Recent years have been disruptive, for lack of a better word, forcing me to rethink an awful lot.  Next year will only be more disruptive (but, by choice).  And I'm just going to cut out all the personal explanations and jump straight to the three things in the thread title and how they have come together inside my brain.  In reverse.

Scrum, for those who don't know, is a project management approach.  There are lots of variants to how it's done, and I'm taking liberties for the purposes of this post.  The relevant points are:

• You start by defining "epics" - project milestones, such as "code version 2.0" or "test version 2.0"
  • The epics cover everything required to complete the project, including required things, optional things, and wish-for-the-stars things
• You break down each epic by defining bite-sized tasks (as in, it will take days to complete a task, not weeks) which, when all done, will complete the "epic"
• You break the project into small time-frames (a few weeks) called "sprints", decide what will be accomplished in each sprint, and meet briefly, multiple times per week to track progress / solve problems
• All this tracking is done by moving cards on a board (from "backlog" to "to do" to "doing" to "done")

The relevant bits can be summarized as: Visually tracking progress toward "epics" broken down into "tasks" which can be accomplished in days during short "sprints".  In this way, the epic isn't daunting, but you also never lose sight of it.

Abraham, as we recently discussed in another thread, seems somewhat unique as evidenced in this verse:

Quote

Abraham 1:2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

Rather than receiving from his father (the presumed norm), he set out with the intent of obtaining these blessings of which he had heard.  In other words, Abraham had a goal - an epic goal.

Which brings us to goals.  I have come to the conclusion that I was taught, surely by those who meant no harm, but only good, that tasks are goals.  It may be that I misunderstood the lesson, but I don't think so.  I think generations of us were taught the wrong lessons and honestly believe that the completion of tasks is the same as accomplishing goals.  For example, I see people talking about things like "reading the entire Book of Mormon in X days" as a goal.  That's not a goal.  It's a task.  And though it's a worthy task, it cannot accomplish (as) great things unless it is deliberately, consciously coupled with an epic goal.

I know the YW "Personal Progress" program is intended to teach girls to set and accomplish goals.  I have no idea whether it does this in its current incarnation, but when I was that age, it failed miserably.  Rather, it taught the definition, accomplishment, and categorization of tasks.  If I failed to see the categorization as defining "epic goals", I'm sure I wasn't alone in that.  I think more, it failed to teach "epic".  Maybe young women aren't capable of learning these things.  Maybe I'm dense and everyone else figured it out on their own.  (I do tend to be extremely detail-oriented and sometimes miss the obvious.)

Regardless, I'm going to share, in hopes that someone might benefit - perhaps the children of parents who read this - and to help me solidify these ideas in my head in a useful way.

What I have concluded is that I did not learn to set epic goals related to the gospel (or anything else, really).  I learned to expect good things to result from the accomplishment of tasks.  I learned to expect and hope for epic things (like resurrection and exaltation) as a consequence, but not to label them as epic goals, nor to willfully define and execute tasks for the express purpose of accomplishing the epic goals.  Perhaps the end result would be the same, but I'm not sure of that, and I am sure that the journey and rate of accomplishment are not the same.

I fear that we don't do this (teach the setting of epic goals and the pursuit of smaller goals and tasks for the express purpose of accomplishing the epic) because we worry people will feel overwhelmed by the magnitude and scope of the epic.  (Or perhaps because people will think they are earning salvation, or others will accuse us of it.)  Yet I think the opposite is true - we feel overwhelmed by the multitude of tasks because we don't perceive them as tightly coupled to the epic goal.  When a task doesn't seem to have a purpose that we personally are passionate about, it's just work to be done.  But when it has genuine, personal meaning, the task is at least "worth it", if not enjoyable or desirable in and of itself.

I think this ties into motivation, especially for young people these days.  I have come to the conclusion that each individual must find their own epic goal or personal motivation for the epic goal.  Whether, like Abraham, they want to be the father (or mother) or nations, or whether they love God or their fellow humans, or whether they act for some other motivation, everyone needs their own (not that it won't change over a lifetime, but they need their own).  Other people's promises that "heaven will be fabulous" are not, I think, sufficiently motivating for most to continue the difficult climb when trials hit.  Even testimony itself may not be enough when things get seriously hard.  And other people's motivations or promises are not, I think, sufficient to produce conversion - one needs one's own, personal motivations in order to set and pursue the epic and appreciate the internal changes which happen along the way.

Google's dictionary includes this definition of "goal": "the object of a person's ambition or effort; an aim or desired result", and more interestingly, this for the origin: "Middle English (in the sense ‘limit, boundary’): of unknown origin."  What is the limit of an eternal being?  Where are his or her bounds?  What is the potential of one with divine heritage?  Surely our goals should be epic and every task defined for the purpose of accomplishing the epic.

(I have a lot of work, and rework, to do.)

[anatess2]

35 minutes ago, zil said:

I have come to the conclusion that I was taught, surely by those who meant no harm, but only good, that tasks are goals.  It may be that I misunderstood the lesson, but I don't think so.  I think generations of us were taught the wrong lessons and honestly believe that the completion of tasks is the same as accomplishing goals.  For example, I see people talking about things like "reading the entire Book of Mormon in X days" as a goal.  That's not a goal.  It's a task.  And though it's a worthy task, it cannot accomplish (as) great things unless it is deliberately, consciously coupled with an epic goal.

Love your OP! 

Just wanna disagree with this bolded one here.  A task is also a goal.  A goal is simply the thing you are focusing on/striving for at a particular time.  Let's put it in the context of sports (which is the first thing I think of when I hear the word goal... maybe because my husband is deep in football season)... every single NFL team has the "epic goal" of winning the Superbowl.  They have the "next-to-epic goal" of winning the AFC/NFC to get to the epic goal of winning the Superbowl.  They have the "next-to-the-next-to-epic goal" of winning their division to get to the AFC/NFC championships to get to the Superbowl championships.  They have the "next-to-the-next-to-the-next-to-epic goal" of winning the game to win their division to get to the AFC/NFC to get to the Superbowl.  Then they have the "next-to-the-next-to-the-next-to-the-next-to-epic goal" of getting a touchdown so you can win the game to win the division to get to the AFC/NFC to get to the Superbowl.  Those are goals, not just tasks.  The TASK is - to train, to execute plays, to be a cohesive team, to run/throw/tackle/etc., to get to that 100-yard goal.

Getting that 100-yard-goal may not be a Superbowl Championship.  But you cannot get to that Championship unless you can make that goal of 100-yards first.

So, putting this in church terms... Baptism is a goal.  Endowment is a goal.  Salvation is goal.  Exaltation is a goal.  If you feel you can't get there unless you read the Book of Mormon in X days, then you can make that a goal, not just a task.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

A task is also a goal.  A goal is simply the thing you are focusing on/striving for at a particular time.

I know technically they can be the same thing (or "completion of this task" can be a goal), but for my purposes, as I suspect you realize, I'm distinguishing the two because we don't have a better word for the "epic goal".  (Or I haven't figured out the better word.)  Just trying to use terms to distinguish the intent, emphasis, focus, thinking behind the action.

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, zil said:

I know technically they can be the same thing (or "completion of this task" can be a goal), but for my purposes, as I suspect you realize, I'm distinguishing the two because we don't have a better word for the "epic goal".  (Or I haven't figured out the better word.)  Just trying to use terms to distinguish the intent, emphasis, focus, thinking behind the action.

You don't need to distinguish the two.  Each and every goal leads towards "It is Finished".  If it is not leading you there, then it shouldn't be a goal.  The Finish Line is the end goal.  This is where after you have crossed it, you have to either find a new goal or stop tasking.  So, for every single goal you put your sights to, you're gonna have to think of how it contributes to your finish line.

P.S.  Of course, the first task is to know what your finish line is... otherwise, you're just making useless goals.

Edited November 5, 2018 by anatess2

[mikbone]

I have always use Long, Intermediate, and Short term goals.  Worked for me

Something that I learned long ago, was from a Cleon Skousen talk wherein he shared some advice from John A. Widtsoe.  Widtsoe basically hammered into Skousen the importance of the following scripture.

2 Ne 2:14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

Man is the thing that was created to act and to not be acted upon.   Once you lock this scripture into your noggin and understand the importance of the concept the whole world begins to change in your mind.  And I notice that this scripture is quoted or at least alluded to about 3-6 times in each General Conference.  

Goals assist us in acting and accomplishing much good.

[Fether]

@zil

Having served a full time mission and now working full time selling solar door to door, I have had various concepts of “goals” shoved down my mental, spiritual and emotional throat  for a long long time.

I cannot put into words my distaste for this because we are all motivated SO differently and we all want different things. So sure we can define and debate meanings of goals and how to set/accomplish them... but none of that matters. 

What matters is what does it take to get myself from point A to point B and then use that momentum to get to point C and D.

What I hate seeing is a leader presenting some formula for goal setting and achieving and telling everyone to do it. Then a week later 20% of thepeople succeed greatly and the rest don’t. The instant response is “You 80% aren’t doing it right or even not doing it at all!”

The church does this in some aspects when it teaches goal setting...

...and... I’ll say it... I don’t think the church is the best at everything it does...

I SAID IT!

The church told me that setting and achieving goals is important and coincides with constant progression. Who is teaching me how to do this effectively? Tony Robbins, Robert Kiyosaki, Grant Cardon, Tyler Williams, Jocko, Sam Taggart, Lewis Howes and other highly successful leaders in various industries.

I don’t think you will ever find everything you need to be successful at setting and achieving goals in a single place, even if that place is the one true church on the Earth.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Fether

[zil]

I think I'm not communicating clearly - no shocker there.

1) I don't recall ever hearing the idea presented in Church that we should set as our ultimate goal "obtaining exaltation in the Celestial kingdom" (perhaps because it seems so obvious when stated like that).  Let alone any instruction on how to set meaningful goals designed to bring about that ultimate goal, and then identify tasks which will accomplish those.  This idea of breaking out the goals like this, and of tying all our tasks, actions, goals directly, consciously to that ultimate goal is something that I think is lacking and would greatly benefit all of us.

2) I think I'm not alone in lacking #1 because I often hear the following:

• That someone feels overwhelmed by all the tasks expected of a member of the Church
• That someone doesn't know why this task or that task required of active members is important

Those two things seem to me to be a indicative of a disconnect between the tasks and the ultimate goal.  Connect them, and the member stops doing tasks defined by others and start being an agent unto themselves, making their own decisions about how best to accomplish the goal rather than how to manage a checklist of tasks someone else came up with.

It seems to me that all the changes in Church policy over the past couple of decades have actually been moving us in this direction - helping members to find their own way forward rather than just doing the tasks that have been defined as "good".

[zil]

9 minutes ago, Fether said:

@zil

Having served a full time mission and now working full time selling solar door to door, I have had various concepts of “goals” shoved down my mental, spiritual and emotional throat  for a long long time.

I cannot put into words my distaste for this because we are all motivated SO differently and we all want different things. So sure we can define and debate meanings of goals and how to set/accomplish them... but none of that matters. 

What matters is what does it take to get myself from point A to point B and then use that momentum to get to point C and D.

What I hate seeing is a leader presenting some formula for goal setting and achieving and telling everyone to do it. Then a week later 20% of thepeople succeed greatly and the rest don’t. The instant response is “You 80% aren’t doing it right or even not doing it at all!” 

The church does this in some aspects when it teaches goal setting...

...and... I’ll say it... I don’t think the church is the best at everything it does...

I SAID IT!

The church told me that setting and achieving goals is important and coincides with constant progression. Who is teaching me how to do this effectively? Tony Robbins, Robert Kiyosaki, Grant Cardon, Tyler Williams, Jocko, Sam Taggart, Lewis Howes and other highly successful leaders in various industries.

I don’t think you will ever find everything you need to be successful at setting and achieving goals in a single place, even if that place is the one true church on the Earth.

I actually agree with you - apologies if it doesn't seem that way.  This idea I've taken from Scrum of identifying the big goals and breaking them into manageable pieces does seem like a no-brainer to me, but we each have to do the defining ourselves - what is my motivation?  What are my "epics"?  How do I want to break this one down?  How long do I think I need to accomplish it?  Which ones are more important than others?

I guess my lament is how long it took me to figure out what now seems obvious.  I trusted that what I was being taught was goal-setting, but I no longer believe that for a minute.

Edited November 5, 2018 by zil

[Fether]

1 hour ago, zil said:

I actually agree with you - apologies if it doesn't seem that way. 

I was mostly just using your OP as a stool to get up on my soap box

1 hour ago, zil said:

I guess my lament is how long it took me to figure out what now seems obvious.  I trusted that what I was being taught was goal-setting, but I no longer believe that for a minute

I too feel that way. 

But perhaps there is wisdom in it??? Maybe that’s foundation set ya up for success later?? I don’t know.

 

[zil]

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

But perhaps there is wisdom in it??? Maybe that’s foundation set ya up for success later?? I don’t know. 

Or maybe I was a snotty teenager who wouldn't have learned anything anyway.  Hard to tell now.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 hours ago, zil said:

I know technically they can be the same thing (or "completion of this task" can be a goal), but for my purposes, as I suspect you realize, I'm distinguishing the two because we don't have a better word for the "epic goal".  (Or I haven't figured out the better word.)  Just trying to use terms to distinguish the intent, emphasis, focus, thinking behind the action.

Maybe you should have included "Stories".

[zil]

52 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Maybe you should have included "Stories".

Meh.  Doesn't fit the shift in usage, at least, not in my mind.

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, zil said:

(Sorry.  I made it as short as possible, but no shorter, so it's long.)

Recent years have been disruptive, for lack of a better word, forcing me to rethink an awful lot.  Next year will only be more disruptive (but, by choice).  And I'm just going to cut out all the personal explanations and jump straight to the three things in the thread title and how they have come together inside my brain.  In reverse.

Scrum, for those who don't know, is a project management approach.  There are lots of variants to how it's done, and I'm taking liberties for the purposes of this post.  The relevant points are:

• You start by defining "epics" - project milestones, such as "code version 2.0" or "test version 2.0"
  • The epics cover everything required to complete the project, including required things, optional things, and wish-for-the-stars things
• You break down each epic by defining bite-sized tasks (as in, it will take days to complete a task, not weeks) which, when all done, will complete the "epic"
• You break the project into small time-frames (a few weeks) called "sprints", decide what will be accomplished in each sprint, and meet briefly, multiple times per week to track progress / solve problems
• All this tracking is done by moving cards on a board (from "backlog" to "to do" to "doing" to "done")

The relevant bits can be summarized as: Visually tracking progress toward "epics" broken down into "tasks" which can be accomplished in days during short "sprints".  In this way, the epic isn't daunting, but you also never lose sight of it.

Abraham, as we recently discussed in another thread, seems somewhat unique as evidenced in this verse:

Rather than receiving from his father (the presumed norm), he set out with the intent of obtaining these blessings of which he had heard.  In other words, Abraham had a goal - an epic goal.

Which brings us to goals.  I have come to the conclusion that I was taught, surely by those who meant no harm, but only good, that tasks are goals.  It may be that I misunderstood the lesson, but I don't think so.  I think generations of us were taught the wrong lessons and honestly believe that the completion of tasks is the same as accomplishing goals.  For example, I see people talking about things like "reading the entire Book of Mormon in X days" as a goal.  That's not a goal.  It's a task.  And though it's a worthy task, it cannot accomplish (as) great things unless it is deliberately, consciously coupled with an epic goal.

I know the YW "Personal Progress" program is intended to teach girls to set and accomplish goals.  I have no idea whether it does this in its current incarnation, but when I was that age, it failed miserably.  Rather, it taught the definition, accomplishment, and categorization of tasks.  If I failed to see the categorization as defining "epic goals", I'm sure I wasn't alone in that.  I think more, it failed to teach "epic".  Maybe young women aren't capable of learning these things.  Maybe I'm dense and everyone else figured it out on their own.  (I do tend to be extremely detail-oriented and sometimes miss the obvious.)

Regardless, I'm going to share, in hopes that someone might benefit - perhaps the children of parents who read this - and to help me solidify these ideas in my head in a useful way.

What I have concluded is that I did not learn to set epic goals related to the gospel (or anything else, really).  I learned to expect good things to result from the accomplishment of tasks.  I learned to expect and hope for epic things (like resurrection and exaltation) as a consequence, but not to label them as epic goals, nor to willfully define and execute tasks for the express purpose of accomplishing the epic goals.  Perhaps the end result would be the same, but I'm not sure of that, and I am sure that the journey and rate of accomplishment are not the same.

I fear that we don't do this (teach the setting of epic goals and the pursuit of smaller goals and tasks for the express purpose of accomplishing the epic) because we worry people will feel overwhelmed by the magnitude and scope of the epic.  (Or perhaps because people will think they are earning salvation, or others will accuse us of it.)  Yet I think the opposite is true - we feel overwhelmed by the multitude of tasks because we don't perceive them as tightly coupled to the epic goal.  When a task doesn't seem to have a purpose that we personally are passionate about, it's just work to be done.  But when it has genuine, personal meaning, the task is at least "worth it", if not enjoyable or desirable in and of itself.

I think this ties into motivation, especially for young people these days.  I have come to the conclusion that each individual must find their own epic goal or personal motivation for the epic goal.  Whether, like Abraham, they want to be the father (or mother) or nations, or whether they love God or their fellow humans, or whether they act for some other motivation, everyone needs their own (not that it won't change over a lifetime, but they need their own).  Other people's promises that "heaven will be fabulous" are not, I think, sufficiently motivating for most to continue the difficult climb when trials hit.  Even testimony itself may not be enough when things get seriously hard.  And other people's motivations or promises are not, I think, sufficient to produce conversion - one needs one's own, personal motivations in order to set and pursue the epic and appreciate the internal changes which happen along the way.

Google's dictionary includes this definition of "goal": "the object of a person's ambition or effort; an aim or desired result", and more interestingly, this for the origin: "Middle English (in the sense ‘limit, boundary’): of unknown origin."  What is the limit of an eternal being?  Where are his or her bounds?  What is the potential of one with divine heritage?  Surely our goals should be epic and every task defined for the purpose of accomplishing the epic.

(I have a lot of work, and rework, to do.)

This past weekend we had the privelege of meeting with President M. Russell Ballard and a couple other General Authorities. Basically, the message was that our focus and desires in our area had become too casual, that the work wasnt progressing in our area. Enough so that we had direct meetings with a senior Apostle and other upper leaders. I went to three meetings with them and learned quite a bit. The church rolls out various programs and policies that allow quite a bit of individual adjustments by local congregations to adapt their circumstances to. The problem is generally in the local leadership being too casual and not preparing their own programs to make goals and be successful. We as leaders are to use our own intellect to make goals and measure success for our individual programs that fit within the guidelines of the church. The hardest part is getting an adult presedency all on tge same page setting the same goal and then carrying it out. We notoriously fail. Why? Because our desire to truly serve the Lord is lacking. We are too casual with our callings. Worldly things always seem to take priority and the Lord comes second. Tasks or goals the church reccomends as guidelines are to help us. We can adapt various measuring sticks and programs with goals that bring about end purposes for those reccomended tasks. Largely, the church if looked at from a business perspective of individuals carrying out setting and keeping goals gets a pretty big failing grade. We just arent motivated enough to serve the Lord. We lack the right desires in our hearts to follow through and be successful in our callings. The Duty to God program for the YM is one instance where it largely fails. Why? Is it be ause of tge way the church set the program up? 😕 No, its because leaders do not take the time to properly take the time to understand it fully and implement it correctly. Not only that but generally, li'l Johnn's basketball game is far more important than his priesthood duties. And because of tye failure of both leaders and parents, the youth learn the same bad habits that get perpetuated to the next generation, over and over again. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, zil said:

because we don't have a better word for the "epic goal".

How about "vision"?  or "calling"? or "quest"? Vision quest?

I don't remember if I've talked about this already or not.  But I found out something about myself in the past year or so.  I have been almost entirely motivated by two things (not in any particular order):

• I wanted to be an accomplished engineer.  I wanted to be the engineer that other engineers came to when no one else could do it.
• I wanted to be a good father.

These are not things one accomplishes in one month or year or even one decade.  They are life-long goals.  I honestly don't know where I get the motivation for them.  I just know that I've always been focused on these things.  It's instinctive.  You'll notice that I didn't list "Being a good husband."  I do spend time thinking about it and pursuing that characteristic.  But it isn't as instinctive as these other two.  And, sadly, the same thing can be said about keeping my eye single to the Glory of God.  I do spend time on it.  But it isn't instinctive yet.  Maybe that is what having your calling and election made sure really is about.  That goal has become instinctive to the point that you can never shove it aside or place something above it.  "how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?"

In pursuing these two goals, I never really sat down and figured out exactly how to get there.  I just always saw it as a goal.  I had a vision.  I did try to pursue them as best I could.  But truly, there was very little I knew about either of them as a kid.  All I knew was that I wanted these things.  Instead, I just always thought about them and whenever something came up that could possibly get me closer, I jumped at it.

Now, I'm still working on the father thing.  I've learned a lot being a father of seven children.   I know where I messed up a bunch.  But to be quite honest, I don't know if I'd do better if I could have a second chance.  Does that mean I didn't really learn?  Maybe.

As an engineer, I'm almost where I want to be.  I am, however, coming to understand that as experienced and knowledgeable as I am in my profession, no one can know it all.  I'm actually disappointed by that.  But I'm beginning to accept it.

The big lesson I've learned about pursuing a quest is that when the Lord guides you, the little goals take care of themselves.  The medium goals become evident.  You have to be conscious of them and work towards them. But there are always tasks that you have to do.

All through my career, I've tried to make the best decisions for my path.  But I kept having to make turns off the path and get on another path.  All these roadblocks got in the way.  What I've learned is that you never actually get off that path.  It's merely a turn in the road that has been paved for you and you just didn't realize it.  I look back on that path and wonder what path I could have taken that would have been more efficient.  And I can't think of one.  Having hindsight, I see where the roadblocks are, the forests, streams, mountains, etc.  I see where the passes, bridges, and trails are.  And I only had to make a turn so I could get to the place of passage.

I could not have planned it better.  But the Lord knew what I wanted.  The Lord knew what he wanted me to do and become.  And he has forged me into that tool that he needs.  All I did was keep my eye on the ball.

Now, if I can only apply that to the Glory of God and the love of my wife.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Guest

[classylady]

Losing my father to death at an early age (I was 6 years old) sort of warped me. I won’t say I was warped in a bad way, but I experienced profound grief at such a critical age that it changed me. As a teenager, I felt old for my age. I couldn’t bring myself to do some of the things that my peers did. I knew I wasn’t invincible/immortal like many teens think. I knew I could die today or tomorrow. And, I knew that if I wanted to see and or be with my father again I needed to obey the commandments. At a young age I made up my mind that I wanted to “go to heaven.” At a young age I had faith in God and I learned later to have faith in Jesus Christ.

According to Zil, (I think) my desire to “go to heaven” would be an Epic goal. I call it a commitment. And there are a lot of steps to reach that specific commitment. I have called those steps short term goals. Always, in the back of my mind, I have known what my end desire is. It is to obtain the highest degree of glory. I want that more than anything! I want to be with my loved ones whe have passed on before me. I miss my father. I miss my daughter. I miss my grandparents and my mother. What bothers me, is that I still fall short of some of my short term goals. I’m grateful for repentance. Because without repentance there wouldn’t be any hope for me. I truly wish I was like those in the Book of Mormon, when they were converted had no more desire to do evil, but to do good continually. 

Also, I want to add, that in my mind, a commitment is something you don’t give up on. It’s something that you don’t fall short on. A commitment is something that you will achieve.

Edited November 6, 2018 by classylady