Would You?

[Guest]

Let's pretend...

You hire someone to do some work.  You get to meet some of his employees.  They seem like a very nice and hard working bunch.  You then find out that half of them don't speak English.  As you can imagine, through investigation you find that many of them are not here legally.

Do you report them to immigration?

If not, would you say something to the employer?  Something along the lines of, "Make sure they don't work on my job again."?

If, upon that request, the man says that he can't do the project for you at the previously stated price without them.  What do you do?

[Fether]

22 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Let's pretend...

You hire someone to do some work.  You get to meet some of his employees.  They seem like a very nice and hard working bunch.  You then find out that half of them don't speak English.  As you can imagine, through investigation you find that many of them are not here legally.

Do you report them to immigration?

If not, would you say something to the employer?  Something along the lines of, "Make sure they don't work on my job again."?

If, upon that request, the man says that he can't do the project for you at the previously stated price without them.  What do you do?

An interesting note somewhat to do with this topic: The church will allow illegal immigrants to be baptized.

But to answer your question... sure, if I came across this situation just in every day life then I wouldn’t think much of it.

but that fact you you dedicated a thread to a question sparks thoughts that maybe that is not the right approach.

In real life: Yes, I would allow them to do work

As a thought experiment: I don’t know

In real life now that you brought up this bought experiment: Most Likely I would allow them to do the work

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Fether said:

An interesting note somewhat to do with this topic: The church will allow illegal immigrants to be baptized.

Yes, I agree with it.  I believe the crime of illegal immigration is on the same level as a traffic violation.  It is still illegal.  But do you really want to be killing people over this?  Destroy their lives over this?  No, they need to take care of it just as we pay a speeding ticket.  And, yup, they caught me fair and square.  But just how bad does someone have to be speeding before people would report them?  Even for cops... how much over the speed limit does it take before he turns on his lights and goes after the guy?

But what would be the equivalent for an illegal immigrant?  I dunno.

13 hours ago, Fether said:

But to answer your question... sure, if I came across this situation just in every day life then I wouldn’t think much of it.

Yup. Me too.

13 hours ago, Fether said:

but that fact you you dedicated a thread to a question sparks thoughts that maybe that is not the right approach.

I don't know.  I'm just wondering.  Often times we get stuck in a mode where we think we're doing just fine as it is.  But lately, I've been wondering if I need to step up my game in all aspects of my life.  That includes abiding by the law.

13 hours ago, Fether said:

In real life: Yes, I would allow them to do work

As a thought experiment: I don’t know

In real life now that you brought up this bought experiment: Most Likely I would allow them to do the work

Thanks for your response.  I'm still wondering.

[Iggy]

@Carborendumhad you paid this contractor much when you discovered he was employing illegals? If so then I would allow them to work until the $ amount had been used up, then I would fire the contractor and find another one who did NOT employ illegals.

 

[anatess2]

16 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Let's pretend...

You hire someone to do some work.  You get to meet some of his employees.  They seem like a very nice and hard working bunch.  You then find out that half of them don't speak English.  As you can imagine, through investigation you find that many of them are not here legally.

Do you report them to immigration?

If not, would you say something to the employer?  Something along the lines of, "Make sure they don't work on my job again."?

If, upon that request, the man says that he can't do the project for you at the previously stated price without them.  What do you do?

No need to pretend for me.   Lots of Filipinos work in California with tourist or expired visas.

Do you report them to immigration? 
It is part of an American Citizen's responsibility to report unlawful acts.  This would therefore be in the same vein as... if you see someone robbing a store, do you report them?  Depends on the situation, I guess?  I have not reported any of the Filipinos I know who are doing this.  I would be deemed a traitor to my countrymen.  If the law was such that it would be against the law not to report them, I would report them.

If not, would you say something to the employer?  Something along the lines of, "Make sure they don't work on my job again."?   
In this case, they are working for you.  It is illegal to knowingly hire people who do not have work permits, so you could get in big trouble.  You would do best not to hire the employer himself.

If, upon that request, the man says that he can't do the project for you at the previously stated price without them.  What do you do?
You are basically toying with the idea of paying people slave wages so you can save money.  Pay the market rate for your job and stop encouraging economic slavery.  Not only are you hurting the "economic slaves" you are also hurting the lawful people of the USA by driving down their fair wages.

[omegaseamaster75]

17 hours ago, Carborendum said:

As you can imagine, through investigation you find that many of them are not here legally.

Do you report them to immigration?

No I would not report them. I am not immigration enforcement. You don't follow every speeder you see and report them to the police do you? do you chase after a litter bug and enforce the no littering codes that many cities have? 

17 hours ago, Carborendum said:

If not, would you say something to the employer?  Something along the lines of, "Make sure they don't work on my job again."?

Only if I wanted the contractor to quit. I better have a backup plan.

17 hours ago, Carborendum said:

If, upon that request, the man says that he can't do the project for you at the previously stated price without them.  What do you do?

No kidding? the price is lower because of illegal labor? I'm shocked!!!!!

[omegaseamaster75]

17 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Let's pretend...

You hire someone to do some work.  You get to meet some of his employees.  They seem like a very nice and hard working bunch.  You then find out that half of them don't speak English.  As you can imagine, through investigation you find that many of them are not here legally.

Do you report them to immigration?

If not, would you say something to the employer?  Something along the lines of, "Make sure they don't work on my job again."?

If, upon that request, the man says that he can't do the project for you at the previously stated price without them.  What do you do?

What is the overall purpose of your hypothetical? 

Maybe the question should be: Is it morally correct to hire someone who uses illegal labor? 

 

 

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

What is the overall purpose of your hypothetical?

Like I said,

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Often times we get stuck in a mode where we think we're doing just fine as it is.  But lately, I've been wondering if I need to step up my game in all aspects of my life.  That includes abiding by the law.

I'm basically hoping for thoughts about the topic that I haven't already considered.

33 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Maybe the question should be: Is it morally correct to hire someone who uses illegal labor?

If you wan to go down the path of that question, I wouldn't mind a bit.

As I replied to Fether, I also believe as you do that the status of being an illegal immigrant, while still illegal, is a very minor crime tantamount to minor traffic violations or (as you say) littering.  So, let's compare:

• Is it morally correct to hire a courier service to take a package from A to B when you know that the only way they can do it in time is to severely speed? (Smokey and the Bandit).
• Is it morally correct to hire someone to haul away junk in and around your office if you know the method they use would be to dump everything on some unused lot?

[omegaseamaster75]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Like I said,

I'm basically hoping for thoughts about the topic that I haven't already considered.

If you wan to go down the path of that question, I wouldn't mind a bit.

As I replied to Fether, I also believe as you do that the status of being an illegal immigrant, while still illegal, is a very minor crime tantamount to minor traffic violations or (as you say) littering.  So, let's compare:

• Is it morally correct to hire a courier service to take a package from A to B when you know that the only way they can do it in time is to severely speed? (Smokey and the Bandit).
• Is it morally correct to hire someone to haul away junk in and around your office if you know the method they use would be to dump everything on some unused lot?

Sure, when I hire a contractor say to pave my driveway I don't grill him about his hired help. My assumption is that they are legal.

When I hire a courier I assume that all traffic laws are being obeyed 

When I hire someone to haul away my junk I don't grill  him and ask where it is going to be dumped I assume a safe and legal space.

Now if I KNOW prior to my engagement then yes I have a moral quandary, and I will not hire. If I find out subsequently I may not use their services in the future or recommend them.

 

 

[omegaseamaster75]

Since we are on the topic of hiring illegals, what do we do? They perform services at a price which legal residents are not willing to do. If we want to go after someone we need to go after the employers. Mandate that they put these people on payroll, pay a fair wage, pay the taxes associated. (the laws already exist)

From the employers side I totally get it they are motivated by greed. The workers are grateful for a few american dollars. The consumers like paying $1.00 for a head of lettuce. Everyone is happy.  If the law is enforced than you the consumer will feel the pain.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by omegaseamaster75

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Since we are on the topic of hiring illegals, what do we do? They perform services at a price which legal residents are not willing to do. If we want to go after someone we need to go after the employers. Mandate that they put these people on payroll, pay a fair wage, pay the taxes associated. (the laws already exist)

From the employers side I totally get it they are motivated by greed. The workers are grateful for a few american dollars. The consumers like paying $1.00 for a head of lettuce. Everyone is happy.  If the law is enforced than you the consumer will feel the pain.

Actually, I've found something rather interesting.  It isn't about the wage.  There are some jobs that US citizens are simply not willing to do.

There was an interview with a farmer on Denver's Kaplis and Silverman back when I lived there.  The farmer hired workers at a piece rate to pick his heads of lettuce.  Kaplis asked:

Quote

K:  Ok.  So, I'm young, I'm strong, I have the reflexes of a panther.  What kind of money could I make if I really hustle?

F: Well, the really good ones can make around $20 to $25/hr.

K: But that's a perfectly good wage!  I'm certain many college students would love to do some seasonal work at that wage.

It turned out ... no.  Americans don't want to do dirty jobs anymore.  Ask Mike Rowe.

My example:  I was looking for someone to do some remodeling for me.  I got several references.  Two never showed up.  A third showed up and was upset that the "bathroom remodel" wasn't just a bathroom remodel.  Even though I had told them that we're moving and shrinking the bathroom so that we can make another small bedroom, all they wrote on the paperwork was "bathroom remodel".  So, this guy got all upset that I was beginning to describe more work than he was expecting.

All he wanted to do was take off the tile, flooring and drywall, and replace.  Anything more involved and he simply wasn't interested.

I tried to clarify and ask if his company does electrical.  Yes.  Plumbing?  Yes.  Wood framing?  Yes.  Ductwork? Yes.  So, what's the problem?

"You're not giving me enough information to do all the rest.  What happens when I you tell me that you want this and this and this... And you'll have to pay for that.?"

I informed him that I was perfectly willing to pay for all that.  I then proceeded to hand him a complete set of plans, itemized scope of work, itemized bill of materials, project description, etc.  He looked at it and said that would work.  But he'd have to return with his electrical and HVAC guy to do a complete estimate.  He left and never came back.

It's not like I'm hurting for cash.  I was perfectly willing to pay for it all at current rates.  But no one wanted to do it.

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

No I would not report them. I am not immigration enforcement. You don't follow every speeder you see and report them to the police do you? do you chase after a litter bug and enforce the no littering codes that many cities have? 

Interesting that you equate illegal immigrant with "speeders" and "litter bugs".

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

It turned out ... no.  Americans don't want to do dirty jobs anymore.  Ask Mike Rowe.

Why do dirty jobs when you can sit in your air-conditioned home with your big screen TV and your smartphone and collect a government paycheck of the same amount?

Raise the price of that dirty job or reduce the amount of that government paycheck and you'll be talking something else.  Capitalism at its finest.

Or you can hire illegal immigrants...  to pick your cotton... vegetables.

Edited November 7, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Why do dirty jobs when you can sit in your air-conditioned home with your big screen TV and your smartphone and collect a government paycheck of the same amount?

Raise the price of that dirty job or reduce the amount of that government paycheck and you'll be talking something else.  Capitalism at its finest.

Or you can hire illegal immigrants...  to pick your cotton... vegetables.

Nope.  I was perfectly willing to pay higher wages for legal workers.  The guy simply didn't want to do it.

Slothful generation of snowflakes at its finest.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Guest

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Nope.  I was perfectly willing to pay higher wages for legal workers.  The guy simply didn't want to do it.

Slothful generation of snowflakes at its finest.

Well, he wasn't hungry enough.  Mama probably providing the tendies in her basement. 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Well, he wasn't hungry enough.  Mama probably providing the tendies in her basement. 

That's the point.  I tried getting a couple others to give me a quote.  They didn't even want to come out.  They set appointments and were no shows.

I've been looking for others.  But most are busy ripping people off in the Harvey debacle.

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That's the point.  I tried getting a couple others to give me a quote.  They didn't even want to come out.  They set appointments and were no shows.

I've been looking for others.  But most are busy ripping people off in the Harvey debacle.

Ohh... you could be a Floridian.  That's like... standard operating procedure here.

I have "my guy" for anything to do with the house and car.  I have a guy that does construction, I have a guy that does yard, I have a guy that does electric, etc. etc.  They've been "my guys" ever since I bought my first house so we know each other.  The only time I didn't have "my guy" was when I had to replace my roof, once when it got hit by lightning and again after Matthews blew off my shingles.  Both times, the insurance company provided "their guy".

[omegaseamaster75]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Interesting that you equate illegal immigrant with "speeders" and "litter bugs".

I can see how you got that, but my intention was to point out that we are not the enforcers of the law, just like how we don't chase down every speeder or hassle every litter bug. 

[anatess2]

Just now, omegaseamaster75 said:

I can see how you got that, but my intention was to point out that we are not the enforcers of the law, just like how we don't chase down every speeder or hassle every litter bug. 

So, you see your neighbor's house being broken into you're not going to call the cops because you're not the enforcer.  Ok.

[omegaseamaster75]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

So, you see your neighbor's house being broken into you're not going to call the cops because you're not the enforcer.  Ok.

That's different and you know it. Stop it.

[anatess2]

Just now, omegaseamaster75 said:

That's different and you know it. Stop it.

THAT'S MY POINT.

[Lost Boy]

I don't need to pretend. I needed 4 bushes removed from in front of my house. I had 5 business quote the job. I figured about 3 hours worth of work. 4 of the places quoted me over $600 for the job. 

I guy said he could do it for a bit over $200. I suspected he had a Mexican crew. I hired him and he and his crew had it done in less than 3 hours. And I am pretty that they were here illegally. 

So if it were one of the other companies, it would have been over $60/hr per person. I don't make that much as an engineer. I am not going to pay uneducated gardeners more than I make per hour. 

[Just_A_Guy]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Nope.  I was perfectly willing to pay higher wages for legal workers.  The guy simply didn't want to do it.

Slothful generation of snowflakes at its finest.

 

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That's the point.  I tried getting a couple others to give me a quote.  They didn't even want to come out.  They set appointments and were no shows.

I've been looking for others.  But most are busy ripping people off in the Harvey debacle.

Maybe.  Then again, maybe the no-shows have other work or other estimates in more convenient locations; and maybe the guy who did come out has run the math and figures there is a bigger profit margin for the quick cosmetic-type job he was expecting.  (I remember reading an analysis by a New York cabbie who figured out that while most cabbies preferred long, costly trips; he could somewhat counterintuitively make more money by doing a lot of very short cheap trips because of the way the billing structure was calibrated.)

Here in Utah, there are plenty of native-born Americans who take dirty, laborious high-paying jobs out in the oil fields.  But it tends to be kind of a drug-filled profession, so most conscientious parents don’t want their teenagers/college kids out there no matter how much it pays.  (The same, so I’m told, is true of the crews of fishing boats that work out of Alaska.)  A sister-in-law of mine did work in fast-food for a time during high school, and was basically driven out by migrant co-workers because of her race and middle-class background. 

So yes, I agree with you that it’s not just a simple matter of “if you pay them well, they will come”; but “lazy white people” (which seems to be the go-to explanation of many folks—not you, @Carborendum—and seems pretty darned racist to me) isn’t necessarily the major complicating factor here.  

As to the OP generally: 

—I don’t think illegal immigration is primarily a moral issue per se as far as God is concerned.  But it is a political issue that is important to me insofar as it entails my social voice in this democracy being diluted by newcomers who to a significant degree do not share my ideological heritage and cultural values; and who are often more interested in redistributing *my* income to themselves (or to their children, under their management) via government social programs and preserving and promoting their own ethnic communities, rather than in uniting under traditionally American founding principles and making it a better country for everyone.  So yeah, I’d be inclined to report illegals to ICE if I had any faith that doing so would actually result in federal action; just as I’d report a drunk driver.  They’re both direct threats to me and my lifestyle; it’s just that one is a much more subtle and less immediate threat.  (Professionally, I deal with illegals a couple times a month, and as a matter of policy my employer does *not* make a point of getting the feds involved.  I do follow that policy.)

—Yes, I’d have that conversation with the employer.  

— @anatess2 speaks wisdom here.  You tell him you won’t be party to the exploitation of poor folk who, if they were legal, would be demanding and getting a much higher wage.

12 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

From the employers side I totally get it they are motivated by greed. 

I don’t know that “greed” is quite the word I’d use.  “Self-interest”, sure.  But it’s not like most of these employers are charging as though their employees were legal, paying them as illegals, and pocketing the difference.  I think it’s mostly, as you go on to suggest, a matter of those who initially hire illegals being able to lower their prices, which then leads consumers to expect those same low prices from all producers, which forces competing producers to either hire illegal workers or shut down. On the whole, I’d tend to label the employers as “desperate” rather than “greedy”. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Maybe.  Then again, maybe the no-shows have other work or other estimates in more convenient locations; and maybe the guy who did come out has run the math and figures there is a bigger profit margin for the quick cosmetic-type job he was expecting.  (I remember reading an analysis by a New York cabbie who figured out that while most cabbies preferred long, costly trips; he could somewhat counterintuitively make more money by doing a lot of very short cheap trips because of the way the billing structure was calibrated.)

That is most likely true.  But doesn't that amount to the same thing?  Bottom line: He was unwilling to do the job. So, if legal contractors are unwilling to do the job, then what am I left with?  You say he believes the profit margin would not be high enough.  Then raise the price and see if I'll bite.  He doesn't know.  Why did he just decide to drop it without even giving me a price?

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Here in Utah, there are plenty of native-born Americans who take dirty, laborious high-paying jobs out in the oil fields.  But it tends to be kind of a drug-filled profession, so most conscientious parents don’t want their teenagers/college kids out there no matter how much it pays.  (The same, so I’m told, is true of the crews of fishing boats that work out of Alaska.)  A sister-in-law of mine did work in fast-food for a time during high school, and was basically driven out by migrant co-workers because of her race and middle-class background. 

There are drug filled professions everywhere (and thanks to Prop B, soon to come to Utah).  But at least in the oil fields, there are random drug screenings to help curb that.

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

So yes, I agree with you that it’s not just a simple matter of “if you pay them well, they will come”; but “lazy white people” (which seems to be the go-to explanation of many folks—not you, @Carborendum—and seems pretty darned racist to me) isn’t necessarily the major complicating factor here.  

You give me too much credit, while also misdirecting at the same time.  I don't blame "white people".  I blame a society that has created so much wealth for all, that the entire society has become indolent in comparison to their counterparts from less developed countries.

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

—I don’t think illegal immigration is primarily a moral issue per se as far as God is concerned.  

I agree.

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

But it is a political issue that is important to me insofar as it entails my social voice in this democracy being diluted by newcomers who to a significant degree do not share my ideological heritage and cultural values; and who are often more interested in redistributing *my* income to themselves (or to their children, under their management) via government social programs and preserving and promoting their own ethnic communities, rather than in uniting under traditionally American founding principles and making it a better country for everyone.  So yeah, I’d be inclined to report illegals to ICE if I had any faith that doing so would actually result in federal action; just as I’d report a drunk driver.  They’re both direct threats to me and my lifestyle; it’s just that one is a much more subtle and less immediate threat.  (Professionally, I deal with illegals a couple times a month, and as a matter of policy my employer does *not* make a point of getting the feds involved.  I do follow that policy.)

Good points.

[anatess2]

8 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I don't need to pretend. I needed 4 bushes removed from in front of my house. I had 5 business quote the job. I figured about 3 hours worth of work. 4 of the places quoted me over $600 for the job. 

I guy said he could do it for a bit over $200. I suspected he had a Mexican crew. I hired him and he and his crew had it done in less than 3 hours. And I am pretty that they were here illegally. 

So if it were one of the other companies, it would have been over $60/hr per person. I don't make that much as an engineer. I am not going to pay uneducated gardeners more than I make per hour. 

Wow, elitist much?

Gardeners are not uneducated.  Gardening is a TRADE much like plumbers and electricians.  You pay plumbers and electricians in my neck of the woods $80/hr.  That's because they don't work straight shot 8 hours a day.  They work on PROJECT basis and, therefore, the project includes advertising, transportation, equipment, transport time between projects, etc. etc.

My "yard guy" is a crew of 3 people.  Their "leader" has a MASTERS DEGREE in horticulture.  I pay the crew $35/week to keep my yard nice... whatever they have to do.  One year, I redid my entire yard because I got tired of spending oodles of money on watering the thing.   They showed up for 2 hours one day to kill my grass and fungi, then spent sun-up to sun-down for 3 days two weeks later to do everything else.  I paid them $8,000.

I'm an engineer.  I don't make $8,000 in 4 days.  I don't need to redo my yard every 4 days either.  And I am completely against hiring illegal aliens for slave wages.

Edited November 8, 2018 by anatess2