Would You?

[Just_A_Guy]

All I know is, I started out paying the kid across the street $8/week to mow my lawn, and he just raised his rates to $15/week.  Next year, Just_A_Kid #1 will be doing it—for free.  

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

All I know is, I started out paying the kid across the street $8/week to mow my lawn, and he just raised his rates to $15/week.  Next year, Just_A_Kid #1 will be doing it—for free.  

Slave wages at their finest.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Wow, elitist much?

Gardeners are not uneducated.  Gardening is a TRADE much like plumbers and electricians.  You pay plumbers and electricians in my neck of the woods $80/hr.  That's because they don't work straight shot 8 hours a day.  They work on PROJECT basis and, therefore, the project includes advertising, transportation, equipment, transport time between projects, etc. etc.

My "yard guy" is a crew of 3 people.  Their "leader" has a MASTERS DEGREE in horticulture.  I pay the crew $35/week to keep my yard nice... whatever they have to do.  One year, I redid my entire yard because I got tired of spending oodles of money on watering the thing.   They showed up for 2 hours one day to kill my grass and fungi, then spent sun-up to sun-down for 3 days two weeks later to do everything else.  I paid them $8,000.

I'm an engineer.  I don't make $8,000 in 4 days.  I don't need to redo my yard every 4 days either.  And I am completely against hiring illegal aliens for slave wages.

I understand and accept everything you've said here.  I wish I could be that dedicated to not hiring illegal workers.  But how am I supposed to do that when I can't find any legal companies who will even give me a bid?

[anatess2]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I understand and accept everything you've said here.  I wish I could be that dedicated to not hiring illegal workers.  But how am I supposed to do that when I can't find any legal companies who will even give me a bid?

That's what's called a conundrum... different from elitist. 

 

[Lost Boy]

29 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Wow, elitist much?

Gardeners are not uneducated.  Gardening is a TRADE much like plumbers and electricians.  You pay plumbers and electricians in my neck of the woods $80/hr.  That's because they don't work straight shot 8 hours a day.  They work on PROJECT basis and, therefore, the project includes advertising, transportation, equipment, transport time between projects, etc. etc.

My "yard guy" is a crew of 3 people.  Their "leader" has a MASTERS DEGREE in horticulture.  I pay the crew $35/week to keep my yard nice... whatever they have to do.  One year, I redid my entire yard because I got tired of spending oodles of money on watering the thing.   They showed up for 2 hours one day to kill my grass and fungi, then spent sun-up to sun-down for 3 days two weeks later to do everything else.  I paid them $8,000.

I'm an engineer.  I don't make $8,000 in 4 days.  I don't need to redo my yard every 4 days either.  And I am completely against hiring illegal aliens for slave wages.

Where did I say gardeners are uneducated?  I did not.  I said "uneducated gardners"  There is a difference.  There are educated gardners and there are uneducated gardners.  Pulling bushes out of the ground doesn't require a degree from MIT.

$35/week for a 3 man crew is not crazy prices.

$8,000 for redoing a yard does not indicate anything about the labor rates.  The bulk of that price could have been materials, so you aren't giving a good comparison. Pulling bushes required a pickup truck a chain and some shovels and about three hours work.  There were three guys.  I paid them a little over $200 for the job.  That equates to $22/hr per person.  I am guessing the forman made more like a $120 and the paid the other 2 guys $40/each.  For uneducated manual labor, that is decent wages.

I know the contractors that wanted $600+ would only be paying their guys no more than $12/hr as well.  And chances are there would be illegals on their crew as well.  So I am opposed to hiring illegals at slave labor rates, too.  I don't believe that is what happened.  But then again, this guy could have screwed his two employees as well.  This is a free country.  You are not forced to work for labor rates you don't agree with.  If you don't like what you are paid, you find better employment.

[anatess2]

23 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Where did I say gardeners are uneducated?  I did not.  I said "uneducated gardners"  There is a difference.  There are educated gardners and there are uneducated gardners.  Pulling bushes out of the ground doesn't require a degree from MIT.

$35/week for a 3 man crew is not crazy prices.

$8,000 for redoing a yard does not indicate anything about the labor rates.  The bulk of that price could have been materials, so you aren't giving a good comparison. Pulling bushes required a pickup truck a chain and some shovels and about three hours work.  There were three guys.  I paid them a little over $200 for the job.  That equates to $22/hr per person.  I am guessing the forman made more like a $120 and the paid the other 2 guys $40/each.  For uneducated manual labor, that is decent wages.

I know the contractors that wanted $600+ would only be paying their guys no more than $12/hr as well.  And chances are there would be illegals on their crew as well.  So I am opposed to hiring illegals at slave labor rates, too.  I don't believe that is what happened.  But then again, this guy could have screwed his two employees as well.  This is a free country.  You are not forced to work for labor rates you don't agree with.  If you don't like what you are paid, you find better employment.

Okay, so $200 for non-illegal labor is just capitalism.

"Uneducated manual labor" is still elitist.  There's this story about the person who rows the boat to and from each bank of the river and the engineer who rode the boat.  The engineer complained about how much he had to pay the rower when he's an engineer while the other guy is just an uneducated boat rower.  So the rower jumped into the water and swam for shore so the engineer can row himself to shore and be happy he got more than he paid for.

P.S.  That eliticism is actually part of the reason illegal immigrants are fought for in the USA:

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

There's this story about the person who rows the boat to and from each bank of the river and the engineer who rode the boat.  The engineer complained about how much he had to pay the rower when he's an engineer while the other guy is just an uneducated boat rower.  So the rower jumped into the water and swam for shore so the engineer can row himself to shore and be happy he got more than he paid for.

I actually had a real life example of this in my life.

I had a client who invited me to work at his office to get a particularly onerous job complete.  While I was there, he noticed me entering the variables into the software.  The entire process seemed simple enough to my client.

So, he started mocking me and saying that a monkey could do the work I was doing.  Why on earth did he have to pay me "outrageous" rates?

"Because a monkey can't really do this."

"Yes he could.  All you're doing is hitting keys on the keyboard."

I immediately stood up and offered him the chair, inviting him to sit in it.

"What are you doing?"

"You said that a monkey could do this.  Can you?"

He took a moment to then look at the screen and realize that all the inputs had labels next to them that he had never seen before.  Yes, he could punch some numbers in.  But he had no idea what he was doing.

"What's the problem?  Are you not as smart as a monkey?"

Normally I wouldn't treat a client this way.  But the guy just had a habit of mocking everyone and everything.  And he never apologized for it.  And he had already beat me down on price so far that I was barely making a living on what he paid me.  So, if he tried to fire me, he'd have a hard time replacing me for the rate I was offering.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Guest

[jerome1232]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Okay, so $200 for non-illegal labor is just capitalism.

"Uneducated manual labor" is still elitist.  There's this story about the person who rows the boat to and from each bank of the river and the engineer who rode the boat.  The engineer complained about how much he had to pay the rower when he's an engineer while the other guy is just an uneducated boat rower.  So the rower jumped into the water and swam for shore so the engineer can row himself to shore and be happy he got more than he paid for.

P.S.  That eliticism is actually part of the reason illegal immigrants are fought for in the USA:

 

See I don't get it.. the engineer then rows to shore just fine, if a bit tired after. The boat rower however couldn't take over the engineers project at the drop of a hat proving the "elitest" viewpoint.

Edited November 8, 2018 by jerome1232

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, jerome1232 said:

See I don't get it.. the engineer then rows to shore just fine, if a bit tired after. The boat rower however couldn't take over the engineers project at the drop of a hat proving the "elitest" viewpoint.

From the capitalist perspective, that's the whole point, isn't it? Physical health and strength enough to do manual labor are common traits. Knowing how to engineer stuff is much less common. Ergo, it pays more.

The kingdom of God does not operate on such principles. But that is the way of this world, and those who do not recognize (or refuse to recognize) this central fact do so to their own detriment and the detriment of anyone who listens to them, ultimately to their entire society.

[anatess2]

43 minutes ago, jerome1232 said:

See I don't get it.. the engineer then rows to shore just fine, if a bit tired after. The boat rower however couldn't take over the engineers project at the drop of a hat proving the "elitest" viewpoint.

Sure, he could do it.  But he didn't.  THAT's the point.  You could pull your own bushes too.  But you didn't.  @Just_A_Guy got his son to do it for free.

Edited November 8, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest]

So, for all the high talk about sticking to principles and so forth, no one can prescribe any process by which I can have a perfectly legal thing done by a perfectly legal process.  But there is this method of getting a ferfectly legal thing done that will require breaking what most have agreed is a trivial law that has nothing to do with morality.

It reminds me when my wife and I decided that we'd only buy things that were made in the U.S.  HAH!  Were we surprised!  While there were some things that were made in the US, about 80% of the things we bought over the next six months weren't even available by US manufacturers, much less "made in the USA".  Many "US manufacturers" still had things actually fabricated abroad.

So, it was nigh impossible to stick to that decision.  We quit.  Trying to "help the American worker" simply wasn't worth it.

I'm really looking for a way to stay legal here.  But I'm finding it impossible for me to do so.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Guest

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

 what most have agreed is a trivial law

That's where the problem is.

[Lost Boy]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Okay, so $200 for non-illegal labor is just capitalism.

"Uneducated manual labor" is still elitist.  There's this story about the person who rows the boat to and from each bank of the river and the engineer who rode the boat.  The engineer complained about how much he had to pay the rower when he's an engineer while the other guy is just an uneducated boat rower.  So the rower jumped into the water and swam for shore so the engineer can row himself to shore and be happy he got more than he paid for.

P.S.  That eliticism is actually part of the reason illegal immigrants are fought for in the USA:

 

Except that is not at all what happened.  I didn't complain about how much I paid.  I was quite content to pay that.  At the end of the job, they asked if there was any more work that they could do for me.  I could have had them redo the flower bed where the bushes were pulled from, but I did that myself.  I did refer him to a friend or two.

Everyone was happy or content.  Those wanting $600+ were content because they weren't hurting for work.  The guy that did the work got paid what he requested and I got the bushes pulled that I wanted pulled.  

So how is that Elitism?  

I personally would rather have those laborers here legally.  But the laws are screwed up and no one is willing to fix them.  Give a means for laborers to come here legally and most would.  Then you could tax them and keep track of them and for those that want to become a citizen you provide a path to citizenship.  Right now you have a situation that does very little to promote legal immigration and a lot to promote illegal immigration.

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Except that is not at all what happened.  I didn't complain about how much I paid.  I was quite content to pay that.  At the end of the job, they asked if there was any more work that they could do for me.  I could have had them redo the flower bed where the bushes were pulled from, but I did that myself.  I did refer him to a friend or two.

Everyone was happy or content.  Those wanting $600+ were content because they weren't hurting for work.  The guy that did the work got paid what he requested and I got the bushes pulled that I wanted pulled.  

So how is that Elitism?  

I personally would rather have those laborers here legally.  But the laws are screwed up and no one is willing to fix them.  Give a means for laborers to come here legally and most would.  Then you could tax them and keep track of them and for those that want to become a citizen you provide a path to citizenship.  Right now you have a situation that does very little to promote legal immigration and a lot to promote illegal immigration.

Like I said... that's capitalism.

The eliticism is the condescension on the value of "uneducated gardners".  Like, you automatically have more value because you went to college and got "educated".

Edited November 8, 2018 by anatess2

[Lost Boy]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Like I said... that's capitalism.

The eliticism is the condescension on the value of "uneducated gardners".  Like, you automatically have more value because you went to college and got "educated".

Well if you think that me thinking my time is more valuable because I have 7 years of college and several degrees, then yes, I guess I am an elitist.  But I don't view it as such.  I view it as spending 7 years educating myself and sending much of my own money to get there.   And yes, I believe in paying more to someone who has more capability.  

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Well if you think that me thinking my time is more valuable because I have 7 years of college and several degrees, then yes, I guess I am an elitist.  

Great, we now agree.

 

I also have 7 years of college and a Master's Degree.  That's not why my time is valuable.  My time is valuable because I'm freaking awesome at what I do and I can produce more at top-notch quality for the money they pay me per hour than the $35/hr guy in India.

Many  millenials are sitting in their mama's basement eating tendies and playing War of Warcraft because they think their time is valuable for their 7 years of college.

Edited November 8, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

My time is valuable because I'm freaking awesome at what I do

No.  You're only "sorta" awesome because you campaigned for elections all year.

I'm "Freaking" Awesome because I sent my kids to their room for a time out.

(Bashing Anatess while free-threading  --  Oh yeah!!).

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

No.  You're only "sorta" awesome because you campaigned for elections all year.

I'm "Freaking" Awesome because I sent my kids to their room for a time out.

(Bashing Anatess while free-threading  --  Oh yeah!!).

Ohh... I'm "freaking" awesome because my kid got barred from entering Sea World because he was carrying a pocket knife!  Kinda like your kid.  Oh yeah!

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Ohh... I'm "freaking" awesome because my kid got barred from entering Sea World because he was carrying a pocket knife!  Kinda like your kid.  Oh yeah!

"Barred"?  Why didn't they simply tell him to go back and put it in his car like they did to my entire family?  I told that story, right?

[anatess2]

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

"Barred"?  Why didn't they simply tell him to go back and put it in his car like they did to my entire family?  I told that story, right?

Yep!

We didn't enter together.  My husband was already inside with the other kid who wanted to be there 30 minutes before opening to get infront of the new rollercoaster line.  I was still at the hotel working.  My son and his girlfriend went in together when there were already so many people in line.  They just said you can't come in with that.  So he buried his pocket knife under the bush out by the trolley and went back through the inspection.  I didn't find out about it until we left that night and we missed the trolley because my son couldn't remember which bush his knife was buried under.  He eventually found it before the last trolley left.

Now, you got to tell your kid this... my kid has a new pocket knife that is made of some kind of plastic... it doesn't trigger the metal detector alarm!  He went to Carowinds and didn't remember it was in his pocket until we put everything in our pockets in the locker to ride the rollercoaster!

Edited November 8, 2018 by anatess2

[Just_A_Guy]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I actually had a real life example of this in my life.

I had a client who invited me to work at his office to get a particularly onerous job complete.  While I was there, he noticed me entering the variables into the software.  The entire process seemed simple enough to my client.

So, he started mocking me and saying that a monkey could do the work I was doing.  Why on earth did he have to pay me "outrageous" rates?

"Because a monkey can't really do this."

"Yes he could.  All you're doing is hitting keys on the keyboard."

I immediately stood up and offered him the chair, inviting him to sit in it.

"What are you doing?"

"You said that a monkey could do this.  Can you?"

He took a moment to then look at the screen and realize that all the inputs had labels next to them that he had never seen before.  Yes, he could punch some numbers in.  But he had no idea what he was doing.

"What's the problem?  Are you not as smart as a monkey?"

Normally I wouldn't treat a client this way.  But the guy just had a habit of mocking everyone and everything.  And he never apologized for it.  And he had already beat me down on price so far that I was barely making a living on what he paid me.  So, if he tried to fire me, he'd have a hard time replacing me for the rate I was offering.

Ain’t that always the way?  The clients with who need the most convoluted jobs done, also think they deserve to pay the least.

When I first started private practice, an office-sharing attorney warned me:  “Don’t be the cheapest lawyer in town.”  It took me a few months before I understood what he meant.

By the way:  I grew up in and around rowboats.  To me, it feels simple.  And to watch someone rowing—it *looks* simple. But if you know how to row, it’s simultaneously amusing and aggravating to watch a first-timer try to do it.  For whatever reason, in my experience it doesn’t seem to come naturally to many/most people.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[NightSG]

57 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

When I first started private practice, an office-sharing attorney warned me:  “Don’t be the cheapest lawyer in town.”  It took me a few months before I understood what he meant.

Best bit of advice I got on setting prices was to overprice yourself out of quite  bit of work.  No one will complain if you offer them a discount after the exact job is laid out, and most of the ones who won't even ask would complain about any price.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Ain’t that always the way?  The clients with who need the most convoluted jobs done, also think they deserve to pay the least.

When I first started private practice, an office-sharing attorney warned me:  “Don’t be the cheapest lawyer in town.”  It took me a few months before I understood what he meant.

By the way:  I grew up in and around rowboats.  To me, it feels simple.  And to watch someone rowing—it *looks* simple. But if you know how to row, it’s simultaneously amusing and aggravating to watch a first-timer try to do it.  For whatever reason, in my experience it doesn’t seem to come naturally to many/most people.

That's odd.  I always found it natural as well.  And I didn't grow up around them.  I was a city boy.  I just had to take a moment to figure out why the blades were curved and which way would be most efficient.  I didn't figure out the rotating the blades thing without someone telling me so.  But it didn't seem to hamper me.  I imagine it doesn't make much difference for casual boating scenarios.

Yes, don't be the cheapest anything -- except in the beginning.  When I was starting out and had no experience, that was the only way to get work.  But after a couple decades of experience, I was in a much stronger position.

An architect called me up asking me for an engineering quote.  I gave it to him.

A: Well, the owner was expecting half that amount.
B: If he can get it, then he'll get what he pays for.
A: I think you'll need to tell them yourself.  Can you come with me?
B: Sure thing.

***With the owner***

I gave my quote
O: But that's a lot more than we thought it would be.
A: Well, we thought there was less scope then.  Now we're aware of more scope...

They begin arguing back and forth as I simply stand there disinterested, looking around...

Finally the owner realizes I can take it or leave it.  I'm just waiting for a yes or no.  He needs me more than I need him.  So, he relents and gives me my rate.
Then I discover through investigation that there is further scope.  I gave him a 5% discount at that point.  He felt SO much better.

The fact is that there simply are not that many engineers who do what I do.  Don't get me wrong, many "could".  But they just don't.  The fact that he was able to find ANYone was good.  Yes, it does feel much better than working with Mr. Monkey man.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I would report the employer to the authorities. He is the one breaking the law. Yes the illegals are breaking the law too, but I see the tax avoidance of the employer to be the greater evil because he is aware of his crime.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I would report the employer to the authorities. He is the one breaking the law. Yes the illegals are breaking the law too, but I see the tax avoidance of the employer to be the greater evil because he is aware of his crime.

Well, as a libertarian, I think from a moral perspective, tax evasion is about as petty a crime as traffic violations.  However, I do see that they have a stiffer legal consequence.  Hence I don't do that.  But I take every opportunity to use legal means to avoid paying any more than I'm legally required to pay.

So, from my perspective, I don't see the difference between the crime of the employer vs. the crime of the employees.