Is anyone doing/recently done an undergraduate degree or college course?

[Sunday21]

Is anyone doing/recently done an undergraduate degree or college course?

I just  finished the lectures for a university course and I was wondering about student’s reactions to lectures. I can see that my students are tired of hearing lectures. I am throwing too much info at them in too short a period of time. 

We had a good lecture today in which we covered a tricky area of law that affected them personally. 

On the other hand we did not cover all of the info for the exam. 

What to do? 

I know that many profs cut out more and more information every year.

Perhaps I should do this? 

I can see that my students have information overload. They look exhausted. 

What do you think? Do you wish that your instructors taught less material per course? 

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Sunday21

[zil]

Can they not read the dull stuff before the lecture and then come and discuss the use of that dull stuff during class?  IMO, that interaction / engagement is what helps students learn.

[Sunday21]

23 minutes ago, zil said:

Can they not read the dull stuff before the lecture and then come and discuss the use of that dull stuff during class?  IMO, that interaction / engagement is what helps students learn.

I have occasionally had brief discussions with some of my students about their futures.

They telll me things like, I really want to work in ‘x’ but I would need to get an  A in this course and I am getting a C Plus.

I say, ‘Why not read the chapter before you go to class?

They look at me as if I had three heads and say, ‘I would never even think of doing that’. And they would not even  THINK of doing such a thing. The mere concept of reading the textbook obviously causes them pain. My guess is that about 1/2 in my course have not bought the textbook. I tried to cover all the material in class this term for this reason as this would allow most students to use the slides and not the text. Maybe I should cut material? 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Sunday21

[zil]

1 minute ago, Sunday21 said:

And they would not even  THINK of doing such a thing.

Then they deserve their C+.

2 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Maybe I should cut material? 

Why?  So ignorant, lazy ninnies can feel good about their "college degree" that's worth the same as something out of a Cracker Jacks box?

Reducing the requirements, unless the requirements are stupid, is not doing them any favors.  Let those willing to work learn and let those unwilling to learn fail.  Anything else is just delaying their pain and spreading it around to other people.

[Jane_Doe]

19 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Is anyone doing/recently done an undergraduate degree or college course?

Many.  I've spent 60+ hours/wk on a college campus for the last 14 years.  

19 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I just giving finished the lectures for a university course and I was wondering about student’s reactions to lectures. I can see that my students are tired of hearing lectures. I am throwing too much info at them in too short a period of time. 

We had a good lecture today in which we covered a tricky area of law that affected them personally. 

On the other hand we did not cover all of the info for the exam. 

What to do? 

I know that many profs cut out more and more information every year.

Perhaps I should do this? 

I can see that my students have information overload. They look exhausted. 

What do you think? Do you wish that your instructors taught less material per course? 

Students, being human, usually want the easiest road out.  So you're always going to get whining about how much material there is, regardless of how little you give.

Learning the right amount of material to teach, and which parts of that material to emphasize / put on the exam comes with practice.  People in your department can help you out finding that right balance.

[Jane_Doe]

6 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I have occasionally had brief discussions with some of my students about their futures.

They telll me things like, I really want to work in ‘x’ but I would need to get an  A in this course and I am getting a C Plus.

I say, ‘Why not read the chapter before you go to class?

They look at me as if I had three heads and say, ‘I would never even think of doing that’. And they would not even  THINK of doing such a thing. The mere concept of reading the textbook obviously causes them pain. My guess is that about 1/2 in my course have not bought the textbook. I tried to cover all the material in class this term for this reason as this would allow most students to use the slides and not the text. Maybe I should cut material? 

If that's what's going on, the answer is a solid: NO.  Your students needs actually do their student job and read the book.  You will be doing them a great disservice if you let them go yet another course with learning how to learn, and they will not be ready to work in 'x'. 

[Sunday21]

27 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

If that's what's going on, the answer is a solid: NO.  Your students needs actually do their student job and read the book.  You will be doing them a great disservice if you let them go yet another course with learning how to learn, and they will not be ready to work in 'x'. 

‘X’ would kill them for sure! 

The really annoying thing this term is that, Student Services used to be my staunch ally. Student Services used to nag them about getting grades so that the students would get jobs. Well no more of that! My area of about 2,400 students now has its own counselor, in addition to the University’s counselling service, and this counselor says students are too stressed.

So no more nagging about good grades because this will stress the students. The sad thing is that the students don’t realize that if they do not rise to the opportunities presented during their undergrad, they will never again be presented so many opportunities for so little input on their part. We have a lot of companies that come to sign on our students for very impressive training programs. All the companies are looking for is a good attitude. Most of my students won’t even go to the initial company presentation. In the students’ defence, they have no idea of the realities of the job market, because we don’t tell students the truth, because we don’t want to stress the students! 

[Sunday21]

42 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Many.  I've spent 60+ hours/wk on a college campus for the last 14 years.  

Students, being human, usually want the easiest road out.  So you're always going to get whining about how much material there is, regardless of how little you give.

Learning the right amount of material to teach, and which parts of that material to emphasize / put on the exam comes with practice.  People in your department can help you out finding that right balance.

I hate to tell you this but, no university in North America, that I have ever heard of,  provides this type of guidance for senior faculty. Maybe for very junior ranks. For senior faculty, the only evaluation are Student Ratings. That fact should scare us. I wonder what goes on in medical schools? 

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, Sunday21 said:

I hate to tell you this but, no university in North America, that I have ever heard of,  provides this type of guidance for senior faculty. Maybe for very junior ranks. For senior faculty, the only evaluation are Student Ratings. That fact should scare us. I wonder what goes on in medical schools? 

Formal training, no-- practically none is provided.

But nothing stops you from going up to a professor friend and asking their opinion on the matter (which is what I was advocating).  Upon reading your later post, your students need to step it up, and by no means should you drop material.  Everyone who's taught at a college level has had to deal with such whiners-- including myself.  Heck, I once had a kid who ditched 3/4 of the semester (including the tests) and then showed up on finals week demanding I give him a A (haha- not happening).  

[Sunday21]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Formal training, no-- practically none is provided.

But nothing stops you from going up to a professor friend and asking their opinion on the matter (which is what I was advocating).  Upon reading your later post, your students need to step it up, and by no means should you drop material.  Everyone who's taught at a college level has had to deal with such whiners-- including myself.  Heck, I once had a kid who ditched 3/4 of the semester (including the tests) and then showed up on finals week demanding I give him a A (haha- not happening).  

You must be joking! If I went to a professor friend to ask such a question they would fall down in a dead faint, be so insulted that I had dared to waste their time with such a inquiry that they would never recover!

Firstly, the complexities of teaching are never discussed among senior profs. You just get on with it.

Profs exist to publish.

The reason that I contemplate this issue is my faith. I cast out a few hints that I have some ideas about careers, very dangerous, and sometimes a student comes to see me. Then, I can take the risk of filling them in a little.  

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

You must be joking!

Nope.  In fact, after he flunked, he went to the VP of the University to try to appeal the grade.

4 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

If I went to a professor friend to ask such a question they would fall down in a dead faint, be so insulted that I had dared to waste their time with such a inquiry that they would never recover!

Firstly, the complexities of teaching are never discussed among senior profs. You just get on with it.

That is an incredible unhealthy attitude... not all universities are like that.

4 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Profs exist to publish.

That is a fact (for research universities).  But still, teaching is a chore that must be done.

4 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

The reason that I contemplate this issue is my faith. I cast out a few hints that I have some ideas about careers, very dangerous, and sometimes a student comes to see me. Then, I can take the risk of filling them in a little.  

Helping students is never a bad thing-- in fact it's to be applauded.  But the student also needs to help themselves.  And if they aren't even reading the book, then they aren't helping themselves at all.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I have occasionally had brief discussions with some of my students about their futures.

They telll me things like, I really want to work in ‘x’ but I would need to get an  A in this course and I am getting a C Plus.

I say, ‘Why not read the chapter before you go to class?

They look at me as if I had three heads and say, ‘I would never even think of doing that’. And they would not even  THINK of doing such a thing. The mere concept of reading the textbook obviously causes them pain. My guess is that about 1/2 in my course have not bought the textbook. I tried to cover all the material in class this term for this reason as this would allow most students to use the slides and not the text. Maybe I should cut material? 

Or maybe you should tell them to read the texts before coming to class, especially if they want to get an A.

[Vort]

43 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

So no more nagging about good grades because this will stress the students.

So don't nag them. No skin off your nose if they fail (or get C+es).

[Vort]

28 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

You must be joking! If I went to a professor friend to ask such a question they would fall down in a dead faint, be so insulted that I had dared to waste their time with such a inquiry that they would never recover!

You Canadians are a delicate lot.

[Jane_Doe]

46 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

‘X’ would kill them for sure! 

The really annoying thing this term is that, Student Services used to be my staunch ally. Student Services used to nag them about getting grades so that the students would get jobs. Well no more of that! My area of about 2,400 students now has its own counselor, in addition to the University’s counselling service, and this counselor says students are too stressed.

So no more nagging about good grades because this will stress the students. The sad thing is that the students don’t realize that if they do not rise to the opportunities presented during their undergrad, they will never again be presented so many opportunities for so little input on their part. We have a lot of companies that come to sign on our students for very impressive training programs. All the companies are looking for is a good attitude. Most of my students won’t even go to the initial company presentation. In the students’ defence, they have no idea of the realities of the job market, because we don’t tell students the truth, because we don’t want to stress the students! 

It's not your job to nag them about grades.  If they want to do 'X', then they need to be self-motivated enough to get the grades they need to do 'X'.  You can tell them that that's what's need, but then let them step up (or fall down).  Don't try to mother them into getting the grades they need.

[JohnsonJones]

I have not done any work to get an undergraduate degree for many years.  I have TAUGHT some classes. 

I have reading that is required.  I do not force the students to read.  They are given an outline on what chapters are covered at each lecture.  The lectures are ADDITIONAL INFORMATION to what they are to read and study.  I expect them to read the material.  The tests are taken from both the reading material and lecture.  They are not forced to go to lectures.

If they can pass the tests without ever reading or going to lecture...good on them.  They probably didn't even need to take the class.  I don't think most students can do this.

They are at a university.  I expect them to act as such.  I have TA's that can help answer questions and guide them in smaller sessions.  I have office hours they can come and ask for additional information (it is amazing how few I get to come and talk to me during those office hours...best time to browse the internet or read a book, especially during most of the semester right up until around two weeks before the final).  I am more than willing to help them out if they just come to ask and have given them the resources they need to succeed.

As university students, with all that they are given and the resources available, I feel their grades are of their own making. 

Unless the university cancels a day of class, my lesson plans are written and go as per needed.  I do not feel the need to cut exams or material, but in an instance IF the university cancelled a day and instruction was missed for all, I would probably omit those questions from that specific test bank that were from the lecture.  AS they should still be doing the reading, those from their own study would NOT be omitted.  That may equal one or two questions being omitted.

I am not going to cut material.

I WILL offer the students as MUCH HELP as I possibly can through TA's, their hours to help and my office hours.  I rarely have students take full opportunity to use those resources.  If I had a student that utilized these fully, appeared to be fully engaged and working hard and still was doing poorly I would do all I could to find a way to try to help them more than that.  I have never had to do that (yet).

[zil]

I'll give a final useless thought (useless because these students are clearly bound and determined to starve to death on your government's dime): The reason I hated history classes (except one in college) was because everything was centered around facts which could be looked up.  This person did that thing in this place on that date.  Yawn-edy-yawn-yaaaawwwwnnnnn!   There was no rational way I was going to consider all that meaningful to me.  The one class I did like taught concepts by showing how they had played out in history.  There were still people who did things in places on dates, but those weren't the focus and we weren't tested on those - we were tested on concepts.

This is my way of suggesting that if what you're teaching is a bunch of look-up-able facts, expecting the students to memorize these and later figure out on their own how they're relevant - well, expect them not to.  Instead, teach them principles or concepts, and use the facts to demonstrate those principles in action.  Test them on the concepts and principles - because, frankly, work is an open-book test.  You can look up the numbers, you can google the law, etc.  What you can't google is an understanding of how to put the concepts to use.  (Although you might even be able to do that, but if you don't know at least some stuff, you won't know if the page you're reading was written by an idiot or a genius.)

But yeah, require the babies to read in prep for the course, don't start the class with a summary of what they read - start with an assumption that they read, and some will step up and be blessed by the class while others will fail - boo hoo.

PS: The good news is that one day, the world will end.

Edited November 8, 2018 by zil

[anatess2]

11 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I have occasionally had brief discussions with some of my students about their futures.

They telll me things like, I really want to work in ‘x’ but I would need to get an  A in this course and I am getting a C Plus.

I say, ‘Why not read the chapter before you go to class?

They look at me as if I had three heads and say, ‘I would never even think of doing that’. And they would not even  THINK of doing such a thing. The mere concept of reading the textbook obviously causes them pain. My guess is that about 1/2 in my course have not bought the textbook. I tried to cover all the material in class this term for this reason as this would allow most students to use the slides and not the text. Maybe I should cut material? 

This approach towards teaching is for grammar school and maybe high school only.

College is a whole 'nother thing.  They're not kids anymore needing to learn to be literate.  Rather, you're aiming for a degree that proves your competence in the area.  You teach what is needed to achieve the COMPETENCY.  The students achieve the competency or they fail and take the class again to gain the competency.

Your question of "Maybe I should cut material"?  is the WRONG question and is doing the university and the students and the community to which these students have to contribute, a disservice.  Your question should be... "Am I teaching the correct amount of material to achieve the COMPETENCY?" 

If you're teaching one of those useless classes that is just there to suck money out of college kids then maybe it's time to look towards finding a useful class to teach.

[Grunt]

On 11/7/2018 at 9:38 PM, Sunday21 said:

Is anyone doing/recently done an undergraduate degree or college course?

I just giving finished the lectures for a university course and I was wondering about student’s reactions to lectures. I can see that my students are tired of hearing lectures. I am throwing too much info at them in too short a period of time. 

We had a good lecture today in which we covered a tricky area of law that affected them personally. 

On the other hand we did not cover all of the info for the exam. 

What to do? 

I know that many profs cut out more and more information every year.

Perhaps I should do this? 

I can see that my students have information overload. They look exhausted. 

What do you think? Do you wish that your instructors taught less material per course? 

 

Today's students are babies. I took some undergrad classes last year and I'm in an MBA program now.  It's ridiculously easy.  Very different than when I went to school many moons ago.   A degree should be earned, therefore worth something.

[Sunday21]

On 11/8/2018 at 8:49 AM, zil said:

PS: The good news is that one day, the world will end

If you could possibly arrange for this to happen by this weekend, I would be very grateful! 

[Tyme]

Lectures are the best. I’m one class away from getting my Master’s online. I sorely miss lectures. Just not learning as much as when I attended lectures in undergrad.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Tyme

[Sunday21]

On 11/8/2018 at 12:18 AM, Vort said:

You Canadians are a delicate lot.

Many profs in Canada at senior ranks come from...the States

[Sunday21]

30 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Lectures are the best. I’m one class away from getting my Master’s online. I sorely miss lectures. Just not learning as much as when I attended lectures in undergrad.

 

30 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Lectures are the best. I’m one class away from getting my Master’s online. I sorely miss lectures. Just not learning as much as when I attended lectures in undergrad.

I love this so much I quote it twice! I feel just the same. You should see me teaching myself stats from Youtube!

[KScience]

I am on both sides of the fence.  Completed a taught Masters a year ago and now lecturing undergrads.

As a student I noticed a change in approach from my undergrad days (over 20 years ago) and was frustrated when set "research tasks". Would much rather be lectured at for 3 hours and discuss the content to get a basis for the rest of my study. But then again I was always the nerd in the front who had done the reading prior the lecture, and was shocked by those who rolled up and had no idea what the lecture was going to be about. IMO inclusivity reduced the amount of content we covered.

As a lecturer it was a bit of a shock for my students that I assign reading for each lecture (identified on their scheme of work) and then proceed to teach assuming they have done it...they soon learnt to do it or feel lost. I have had a few complaints as program lead, but reminded students that it was clearly on the scheme of work presented to them at the beginning of each module and that that they are expected to be independent learners. I am shocked at how much students expect lecturers to do for them and how little they expect to take ownership of their own learning. I come from a secondary school teaching environment and can honestly say that I taught 11 year olds with a better work ethic . It could be the subject I am teaching (vocational basis), there is certainly a difference between students who enter from a more academic bases rather than with vocational quals. It could also be that the much smaller class sizes on these courses (I was used to a couple of hundred in a lecture hall during my undergrad years) change the dynamics of the teaching.

[zil]

30 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Many profs in Canada at senior ranks come from...the States

That's because they were too delicate to survive here.