Missionaries Going the Way of...


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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

It does not matter where the line is - it has already been crossed as soon as we start to think there is a line.

 

The Traveler

Don't think so. Self reflective thinking is how you figure these things out. To say the line is crossed by just thinking about the idea of a line or boundary is to nullify self examination.

I think the line is mostly personal. And that to argue about your line being right and their line is wrong is more about pride than anything else. The gospel draws some lines clearly. Others are left as exercise for the person.

My experience is that it's more revelatory why the person drew the line than where they drew it.

You never get to why without the self reflective thinking. If it's all about what and not why, there isn't personal growth.
 

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On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 6:05 PM, Carborendum said:

Because of what you just said, I need to make sure I am clear about something.

My bishop is no SJW.  He is not a "heterodox Mormon".  His kids are about the most upstanding kids there are in the ward.  And I know they themselves do everything they can to encourage their kids to go on a mission.

The problem that he described was twofold:

1. Many young men simply aren't worthy.  And a big part of it is pornography and self-abuse -- or worse.  It is rampant.
2. Too many families are not even planning on their sons going on a mission.  The old custom of raising your boys to go on a mission from day one is just not happening in as many homes that we'd expect.  So, most boys don't even realize they are supposed to go.

He saw these as flaws that should be fixed.  But they are a reality that we need to be aware of.  He wasn't cheering it on.  He wasn't defending it.  He wasn't saying that we SHOULD go that direction.  He was seeing patterns of the world creeping into the Church.  And he was saddened by it.  But he needed to make us aware that it was a thing.

I don't know about other areas, but here in my ward, I am surprised at the amount of missionaries who come home early now.  

 

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8 hours ago, dogwater said:

Don't think so. Self reflective thinking is how you figure these things out. To say the line is crossed by just thinking about the idea of a line or boundary is to nullify self examination.

I think the line is mostly personal. And that to argue about your line being right and their line is wrong is more about pride than anything else. The gospel draws some lines clearly. Others are left as exercise for the person.

My experience is that it's more revelatory why the person drew the line than where they drew it.

You never get to why without the self reflective thinking. If it's all about what and not why, there isn't personal growth.
 

The only reason to draw a line is to justify (rationalize) that regardless of where you are - you are on the correct side of it.

 

The Traveler

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3 hours ago, John6572 said:

I don't know about other areas, but here in my ward, I am surprised at the amount of missionaries who come home early now.  

 

Not surprising.  The current generation raising kids is really screwing up next generation. Lawnmower and helicopter parents . . .so when kids actually get out on their own and are away from mommy and daddy doing everything for them it becomes "too hard".

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33 minutes ago, dogwater said:

By that argument, the 10 commandments are meaningless.

The 10 Commandments is not an end but rather a preparatory law - for example Jesus taught that it was written that "Thou shall not kill" but Jesus said that he that is "angry" with his brother is in danger of hell fire.  The Book of Mormon teaches that justification does not come through the Law of Moses.    I am concerned that you are caught in a pseudo logic loop in thinking when there is no justification in a law it is meaningless.  Obviously if such a law is not and end in its self but rather a teacher or preparatory law - then there is purpose and meaning.  My argument is that if one assumes there is a line and as long as they do not cross that line - that they are justified - they will not be justified and will find themselves on the wrong side of being justified by the Law.

 

The Traveler 

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24 minutes ago, boxer said:

Not surprising.  The current generation raising kids is really screwing up next generation. Lawnmower and helicopter parents . . .so when kids actually get out on their own and are away from mommy and daddy doing everything for them it becomes "too hard".

Laman and Limual thought it was "too hard" to retrieve the Brass Plates and intended to return home early from their mission.  I think you are wrong in blaming Lehi as the only problem because of raising his children incorrectly.   I do not believe such is as much a problem of parenting as it is being converted and having experienced a mighty change of heart.  But this opinion is coming from someone that served two years in the military during a time of war before serving my mission - that I though was perhaps the easiest experience of my life.  I also financed my mission from my personal savings - which I do not think but a very few (if any) do currently.  Also when I was on my mission and someone would ask how many missionaries were serving in my mission - my answer was - about half of them and that was about 50 years ago.

 

The Traveler

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8 hours ago, Traveler said:

Laman and Limual thought it was "too hard" to retrieve the Brass Plates and intended to return home early from their mission.  I think you are wrong in blaming Lehi as the only problem because of raising his children incorrectly.   I do not believe such is as much a problem of parenting as it is being converted and having experienced a mighty change of heart.  But this opinion is coming from someone that served two years in the military during a time of war before serving my mission - that I though was perhaps the easiest experience of my life.  I also financed my mission from my personal savings - which I do not think but a very few (if any) do currently.  Also when I was on my mission and someone would ask how many missionaries were serving in my mission - my answer was - about half of them and that was about 50 years ago.

 

The Traveler

thank you for your military services and sharing your thoughts.  I think you may be right.  I feel it is about conversion.  

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3 hours ago, John6572 said:

thank you for your military services and sharing your thoughts.  I think you may be right.  I feel it is about conversion.  

Thank you for your response.  I have thought more on this parallel with missions today and the mission of the sons of Lehi in retrieving the Brass Plates.  Nephi did not send his brothers home but rather took more responsibility for the mission himself - which had interesting consequences in and of itself in the development of Nephi's character and his testimony of G-d and listening to the spirit to fulfill one's calling and responsibility.  

I understand well the perversion in attempting to "force" someone to fulfill their responsibilities both to themselves and to G-d in our adventures of mortal life.  But I must admit that I do not understand well enough how parents can prepare their children to serve a mission.  But there is an element of mission finance that I believe to be of more importance that most are willing to admit - and that is the financing of a mission.  But I am convinced that the more an individual feels responsible to finance their mission - either to pay for it directly or a feeling of obligation to pay back into the missionary fund what other provided for their mission - the more opportunity there seems to be for the missionary to be deeply converted to serving.

It was very stressed in the home I grew up in that - if I believed in something - that I will fund it from the finances of my own labor.  I was taught as a young child that if I wanted to go to college - I must save and pay for it myself.  This philosophy was carried out everything in my life - If I wanted something to wear - I would have to pay for it myself.  And whatever was provided by someone else (including food or whatever) I was to receive it with thanks and gratitude.    If food was placed on the table and I was to say - "I do not what to eat this" - my parents did not care - I was not forced to eat it but I was left to my own means to provide what I wanted for myself.  When I was very young and had little or no such means - I went to bed hungry on such a night.  When I was older I was left to decide what I would purchase for myself.  I learned at a very young age to be thankful for just about anything ever given.  And I would add that I was raised in the home of one of the most wealthy families in my community.

I believe wealth is ruined when children are provided with what they want rather than what they need.  I believe G-d works by this principle - to provide what we need but we must labor ourselves for our wants and not rely on the labor of others for such things.

 

The Traveler

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On 11/9/2018 at 12:51 AM, Fether said:

On the mission you are constantly bombarded with “You must be worthy statements”, particularly in the MTC. 

You don’t really get that when getting ready to get married.

I personally know a man from our country who served a mission but was not worthy. I don't know how could he serve a mission? Although , his girlfriend was pregnant before he received his calling, he went on mission. After his mission, they got married in the temple (assuming that going to the temple is not affordable for us if we don't benefit a financial help program from the Church). Then, he became a church leader. At that time, I always wondered why God let those things happen. But, lately, I've heard that he was excommunicated and became non active in the Church. So I think, sooner or later, God will punish us if we don't repent. We can lie to our leaders but we cannot lie to God.

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On 11/19/2018 at 10:46 AM, anatess2 said:

You, can't sin against something you have no knowledge of.

Sure you can.  If God's law says "Do not murder" and you murder someone, you have sinned regardless of whether you realized it at the time.

In Psalm 19:12-13 David said: Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.  Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

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27 minutes ago, Klaymen said:

Sure you can.  If God's law says "Do not murder" and you murder someone, you have sinned regardless of whether you realized it at the time.

In Psalm 19:12-13 David said: Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.  Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

Hi Klaymen!  First time seeing you here!  Welcome!

 

I don't think you can.  That's the purpose of leaving pre-mortal existence...   to gain knowledge.  And that's why we couldn't sin in pre-mortal existence, because we had no knowledge.

But everyone is born with the Light of Christ.  You can sin against the Light of Christ. 

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Hi Klaymen!  First time seeing you here!  Welcome!

 

I don't think you can.  That's the purpose of leaving pre-mortal existence...   to gain knowledge.  And that's why we couldn't sin in pre-mortal existence, because we had no knowledge.

But everyone is born with the Light of Christ.  You can sin against the Light of Christ. 

Sure, wd could sin before we came here. One-third the hosts of heaven sinned.

4 For if God spared not the aangels that sinned, but cast themdown to bhell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto cjudgment; (2Peter 2:4)

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2 hours ago, Klaymen said:

Sure you can.  If God's law says "Do not murder" and you murder someone, you have sinned regardless of whether you realized it at the time.

In Psalm 19:12-13 David said: Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.  Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

Latter-day Saints will separate what we call "transgressions" from "sins".  A transgression is exactly what we're talking about here.  Breaking one of God's laws without knowing it was wrong -- being wrong because it broke one of His laws.  And if it were not for the Atonement of Christ, we would be held under just as much condemnation as if we did know it was wrong -- because it broke God's laws.

But because of the Atonement, there are gradations of sins.  If you sinned without realizing it, you would be held under less condemnation than if you really knew better.  Some truly minor ones are forgiven automatically if we really didn't know it was wrong or if we didn't realize we were even doing something at all.

But in the case of murder, it is hard to make a case that one didn't know it was wrong.  Apart from some small tribes in completely isolated societies, murder is universally understood to be wrong.  That's just a constant.

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