Missionaries Going the Way of...

[Guest]

We had an adult fireside the other day.  The bishop led a discussion where we covered all the social services programs that the Church has.  Funny thing, only about five couples showed up.

As you can imagine, much of the discussion was about social issues that impact the members of the Church -- especially those regarding law of chastity. 

As he got to the subject of pornography he said something without actually explaining himself.  But I think I got the gist of it.  As he spoke about porn, he said that the old way of young men going on a mission as a rite of passage is going away -- probably within the period of time when the children of those families in the room who would expect to go on a mission.  Young men simply are not as encouraged to go.  And too many are not meeting the standards.

Then he went on about pornography...

I didn't bother asking him if it was just his opinion or if it was word from on high or what.  But it struck me as true.  The background of what he said was that in the society we live in, it is virtually impossible to never be exposed to pornography.  It has simply become a reality.  It could just be driving down the road and seeing a billboard. It could be at the supermarket checkout line.  It's just everywhere.

People tend to think that pornography is "naked pictures".  But really, pornography is any stimulus that improperly evokes a sexual reaction.  That could be verbal or written.  It could be images - that don't necessarily have to be "naked" by FCC standards. 

I hadn't thought of that.  I considered for a moment about my kids.  I believe they are about as sheltered from that as possible.  But even they will get exposed to it from time to time.  Thankfully, it isn't on a daily basis.  But I'd estimate it is on a weekly basis.

I don't know the future of my kids or the Church in this regard.  But I do think there is some truth about what the bishop said regarding the missionary program.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Guest

[Fether]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

We had an adult fireside the other day.  The bishop led a discussion where we covered all the social services programs that the Church has.  Funny thing, only about five couples showed up.

As you can imagine, much of the discussion was about social issues that impact the members of the Church -- especially those regarding law of chastity. 

As he got to the subject of pornography he said something without actually explaining himself.  But I think I got the gist of it.  As he spoke about porn, he said that the old way of young men going on a mission as a rite of passage is going away -- probably within the period of time when the children of those families in the room who would expect to go on a mission.  Young men simply are not as encouraged to go.  And too many are not meeting the standards.

Then he went on about pornography...

I didn't bother asking him if it was just his opinion or if it was word from on high or what.  But it struck me as true.  The background of what he said was that in the society we live in, it is virtually impossible to never be exposed to pornography.  It has simply become a reality.  It could just be driving down the road and seeing a billboard. It could be at the supermarket checkout line.  It's just everywhere.

People tend to think that pornography is "naked pictures".  But really, pornography is any stimulus that improperly evokes a sexual reaction.  That could be verbal or written.  It could be images - that don't necessarily have to be "naked" by FCC standards. 

I hadn't thought of that.  I considered for a moment about my kids.  I believe they are about as sheltered from that as possible.  But even they will get exposed to it from time to time.  Thankfully, it isn't on a daily basis.  But I'd estimate it is on a weekly basis.

I don't know the future of my kids or the Church in this regard.  But I do think there is some truth about what the bishop said regarding the missionary program.

How often do we hear today of people defending athletes decisions of not serving missions? Or members who chose not to serve missions defending their decision to not serve by saying “my real mission was to marry so-and-so” or some variation or that.

I am not sure how long this has been around, but there are a ton of groups out there that refer to themselves as unorthodox Mormons (essentially social justice warriors, but the Latter-day Saint version) and are pushing concepts like what you have mentioned.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Fether said:

How often do we hear today of people defending athletes decisions of not serving missions? Or members who chose not to serve missions defending their decision to not serve by saying “my real mission was to marry so-and-so” or some variation or that.

I am not sure how long this has been around, but there are a ton of groups out there that refer to themselves as unorthodox Mormons (essentially social justice warriors, but the Latter-day Saint version) and are pushing concepts like what you have mentioned.

Because of what you just said, I need to make sure I am clear about something.

My bishop is no SJW.  He is not a "heterodox Mormon".  His kids are about the most upstanding kids there are in the ward.  And I know they themselves do everything they can to encourage their kids to go on a mission.

The problem that he described was twofold:

1. Many young men simply aren't worthy.  And a big part of it is pornography and self-abuse -- or worse.  It is rampant.
2. Too many families are not even planning on their sons going on a mission.  The old custom of raising your boys to go on a mission from day one is just not happening in as many homes that we'd expect.  So, most boys don't even realize they are supposed to go.

He saw these as flaws that should be fixed.  But they are a reality that we need to be aware of.  He wasn't cheering it on.  He wasn't defending it.  He wasn't saying that we SHOULD go that direction.  He was seeing patterns of the world creeping into the Church.  And he was saddened by it.  But he needed to make us aware that it was a thing.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Guest

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

How often do we hear today of people defending athletes decisions of not serving missions? Or members who chose not to serve missions defending their decision to not serve by saying “my real mission was to marry so-and-so” or some variation or that.

I am not sure how long this has been around, but there are a ton of groups out there that refer to themselves as unorthodox Mormons (essentially social justice warriors, but the Latter-day Saint version) and are pushing concepts like what you have mentioned.

This is true and they are making a LOT of headway in the church today.  Many of the decisions that have come of recent I see not as being because we are so righteous, but because we are so wicked.  In our wickedness we are pleading for things (like less church, etc) and the Lord will at times grant those wishes of those who want things contrary to his commandments, or, if the people are weak enough give a lesser law rather than keep them to a higher law (ala, the Law of Moses replacing the higher law as an example).

It could very well come that the missionary program becomes less stressed or even defunct as I see MANY people these days who are EXTREMELY against it.  In fact, there are few programs more reviled in the church (and some of those that were, like the Boy Scout program are planned to be discontinued already, hometeaching also was discontinued) than going on a Mission these days.  Many still are faithful and look forward to doing so, but MANY do all they can to avoid it.

Just a PERSONAL thought on things.

[Traveler]

49 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Because of what you just said, I need to make sure I am clear about something.

My bishop is no SJW.  He is not a "heterodox Mormon".  His kids are about the most upstanding kids there are in the ward.  And I know they themselves do everything they can to encourage their kids to go on a mission.

The problem that he described was twofold:

1. Many young men simply aren't worthy.  And a big part of it is pornography and self-abuse -- or worse.  It is rampant.
2. Too many families are not even planning on their sons going on a mission.  The old custom of raising your boys to go on a mission from day one is just not happening in as many homes that we'd expect.  So, most boys don't even realize they are supposed to go.

He saw these as flaws that should be fixed.  But they are a reality that we need to be aware of.  He wasn't cheering it on.  He wasn't defending it.  He wasn't saying that we SHOULD go that direction.  He was seeing patterns of the world creeping into the Church.  And he was saddened by it.  But he needed to make us aware that it was a thing.

In white water rafting there is a hidden danger in certain smooth places where the river runs deep over vast river bottom changes.  At the top the river flows almost uneventful but because the river run very deep there can be a 100 foot water fall into a hole that is filled to level where the river is running.  Sometimes the strong down current will create a whirlpool that will suddenly appear and disappear.  I have seen such hydraulics pull a kayak or small 4 man raft completely under.  There are times when river rafting it is fun to trow people in the river or jump in a swim a bit.  But there are places where you want to stay in the safety of the boat. 

Because most in my generation grew up on a relatively safe river - we may not realize how dangerous things are getting for them.  I am not a porn expert but in my youth it was impossible to avoid pron.  Or course we were advised to avoid it - but young men were attracted to certain pleasures with young ladies.  It was thought of as part of the process of growing up.  But I am thinking there are very different undercurrents in the rivers that youth are currently growing up in and they are introduced to a more deadly variety of of such things at a much earlier age.

I have argued on this forum that all cognitive behaviors in an intelligent species are acquired or learned behaviors.   Pavlov proved that cognitive behaviors can be acquired by subtle associations that would seem unrelated except for happening at the same time.  Skinner and Freud proved that behaviors learned in youth are believed by an individual to have been acquired at birth or something they were "born" to do.  I recently was talking to a psychologist that was explaining that behaviors acquired in youth seem most difficult to break or alter.

It is my personal theory that children are the key to when G-d will determine when to step in and destroy a society - that is when children have no psychological chance to grow up to adult hood without acquiring "forbidden" behaviors (mostly related to violence or sexual).  I believe the term used in scripture to describe the perversion of children - is "ripe in iniquity".  I think we are getting closer - not just to accepting all kinds of iniquity (sexual and violence) and "natural" for adults but common for children as well.

 

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

1. Many young men simply aren't worthy.  And a big part of it is pornography and self-abuse -- or worse.  It is rampant.

If they aren’t worthy to serve missions, how are they worth to marry in the temple?

[Fether]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

He wasn't cheering it on.  He wasn't defending it.  He wasn't saying that we SHOULD go that direction.  He was seeing patterns of the world creeping into the Church.  And he was saddened by it.  But he needed to make us aware that it was a thing.

And I didn’t think he was cheering it on👍

 

2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If they aren’t worthy to serve missions, how are they worth to marry in the temple?

It is easier to justify and lie yourself into a temple marriage.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

And I didn’t think he was cheering it on👍

I just wanted to be clear.

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

It is easier to justify and lie yourself into a temple marriage.

How?  Lies are lies.  Commitments are commitments. 

[Fether]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I just wanted to be clear.

How?  Lies are lies.  Commitments are commitments. 

On the mission you are constantly bombarded with “You must be worthy statements”, particularly in the MTC. 

You don’t really get that when getting ready to get married.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

On the mission you are constantly bombarded with “You must be worthy statements”, particularly in the MTC. 

You don’t really get that when getting ready to get married.

Hmmm. I don't know about that. Seems to me that you get plenty of that when preparing for marriage.

[anatess2]

All I know is my 2 boys are planning to go on missions.  And that’s all I have to say about that.

[pwrfrk]

13 hours ago, Carborendum said:

But really, pornography is any stimulus that improperly evokes a sexual reaction.  That could be verbal or written.  It could be images - that don't necessarily have to be "naked" by FCC standards. 

Gee, THANKS.  Don't go near a college campus bro!

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, pwrfrk said:

Gee, THANKS.  Don't go near a college campus bro!

More evidence that it is impossible to NOT be exposed to it.

[Grunt]

14 hours ago, Carborendum said:

1. Many young men simply aren't worthy.  And a big part of it is pornography and self-abuse -- or worse.  It is rampant.

 

Pornography is socially acceptable.  It's talked about openly at work.  We access it from cell phones and computers at no cost.  We encourage it in advertising and media.  What's worse is deviance is being mainstreamed as well.  I didn't see anything wrong with pornography or worse at all until I joined the church.

Sadly, we even see members downplaying it.  The kids don't stand a chance.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Grunt

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

We had an adult fireside the other day.  The bishop led a discussion where we covered all the social services programs that the Church has.  Funny thing, only about five couples showed up.

As you can imagine, much of the discussion was about social issues that impact the members of the Church -- especially those regarding law of chastity. 

As he got to the subject of pornography he said something without actually explaining himself.  But I think I got the gist of it.  As he spoke about porn, he said that the old way of young men going on a mission as a rite of passage is going away -- probably within the period of time when the children of those families in the room who would expect to go on a mission.  Young men simply are not as encouraged to go.  And too many are not meeting the standards.

Then he went on about pornography...

I didn't bother asking him if it was just his opinion or if it was word from on high or what.  But it struck me as true.  The background of what he said was that in the society we live in, it is virtually impossible to never be exposed to pornography.  It has simply become a reality.  It could just be driving down the road and seeing a billboard. It could be at the supermarket checkout line.  It's just everywhere.

People tend to think that pornography is "naked pictures".  But really, pornography is any stimulus that improperly evokes a sexual reaction.  That could be verbal or written.  It could be images - that don't necessarily have to be "naked" by FCC standards. 

I hadn't thought of that.  I considered for a moment about my kids.  I believe they are about as sheltered from that as possible.  But even they will get exposed to it from time to time.  Thankfully, it isn't on a daily basis.  But I'd estimate it is on a weekly basis.

I don't know the future of my kids or the Church in this regard.  But I do think there is some truth about what the bishop said regarding the missionary program.

Children have been becoming more and more sexualized in the American social and media environment for decades. Parents must armor them with the protection of the Holy Spirit to prevent the impact of such an environment on a developing mind in relation to individual worthiness. There is exposure and there is what gets done with that exposure. The Holy Ghost can prevent the former to a degree, but in my opinion, more often guide us in the latter.

[anatess2]

45 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Pornography is socially acceptable.  It's talked about openly at work.  We access it from cell phones and computers at no cost.  We encourage it in advertising and media.  What's worse is deviance is being mainstreamed as well.  I didn't see anything wrong with pornography or worse at all until I joined the church.

Sadly, we even see members downplaying it.  The kids don't stand a chance.

So, in the Philippines, it is illegal for a cellular carrier or an internet service provider to give access to pornography sites.  Lots of people cried, "Censorship!".  And we're like... and?

[Rob Osborn]

16 hours ago, Carborendum said:

We had an adult fireside the other day.  The bishop led a discussion where we covered all the social services programs that the Church has.  Funny thing, only about five couples showed up.

As you can imagine, much of the discussion was about social issues that impact the members of the Church -- especially those regarding law of chastity. 

As he got to the subject of pornography he said something without actually explaining himself.  But I think I got the gist of it.  As he spoke about porn, he said that the old way of young men going on a mission as a rite of passage is going away -- probably within the period of time when the children of those families in the room who would expect to go on a mission.  Young men simply are not as encouraged to go.  And too many are not meeting the standards.

Then he went on about pornography...

I didn't bother asking him if it was just his opinion or if it was word from on high or what.  But it struck me as true.  The background of what he said was that in the society we live in, it is virtually impossible to never be exposed to pornography.  It has simply become a reality.  It could just be driving down the road and seeing a billboard. It could be at the supermarket checkout line.  It's just everywhere.

People tend to think that pornography is "naked pictures".  But really, pornography is any stimulus that improperly evokes a sexual reaction.  That could be verbal or written.  It could be images - that don't necessarily have to be "naked" by FCC standards. 

I hadn't thought of that.  I considered for a moment about my kids.  I believe they are about as sheltered from that as possible.  But even they will get exposed to it from time to time.  Thankfully, it isn't on a daily basis.  But I'd estimate it is on a weekly basis.

I don't know the future of my kids or the Church in this regard.  But I do think there is some truth about what the bishop said regarding the missionary program.

I didn't serve a mission, I was too rebellious and sinful. With the new standards in place for worthiness now even fewer will go. If these same standards were in place 30 years ago I wouldn't have been able to go even if I wanted to.

I find it interesting that over the past year in my stake they are really trying to push getting our young men to serve missions. The numbers are insane- only 1 in 10 LDS young men in our area are serving missions and we live in the heartland of the LDS belt. Their challenge to us as leaders is for all young men to commit to serving a full time mission. I had a hard time with coming to terms with this challenge and discussed it with my bishop. He told me that my main job and calling is to be there for all the young men who don't serve. Their worth is still the same in God's eyes and we need to be even more diligent in helping those who don't serve missions to remain in the church and connected to God.

The real cause of this lopsided number is due to what's happening in the home. Families are not preparing children to have strong faith in the Lord and to put Him first in their lives. We see this in our idol worship of sports and climbing the social world ladder. We have this casualness as parents to build our little world up around us and put God secondary in goal setting. We have this attitude of "not now God, I'm busy building my world". Our worship of sports in our kids lives is horrific. I was guilty of it too. My son was really good at baseball. He was the Captain and best player on his HS team. He was invited to participate in the Junior Olympics. I had great grandeur for him. I dreamed of him playing at the highest levels. Needless to say, it's not what God had in store for him. Through a series of miracles and injury to his pitching arm he never even played college ball. Now he is a director in an after school program and a physical education teacher for elementary school kids. 

My point is that we live our lives through our children and often times do not realize that the mission of God of bringing souls to him, saving the lost, is of most importance. I never pushed my kid in spiritual things let alone to serve a mission. I don't think it was in his cards anyway in hindsight.

If we want change, it has to start in the home. Leaders can only do so much. 

[Traveler]

11 hours ago, Vort said:

Hmmm. I don't know about that. Seems to me that you get plenty of that when preparing for marriage.

I believe that worthiness is stressed in partaking of the sacrament and attending the temple - as well as understanding scripture or receiving answers to prayers.  I am aware that many stress doctrine over worthiness but I believe that even doctrine is not understood correctly by the unworthy.  

 

The Traveler 

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I never pushed my kid in spiritual things let alone to serve a mission. I don't think it was in his cards anyway in hindsight.

I never pushed my kids either.  My husband and I simply lived our lives dedicated to God.  Our children followed.  

[Traveler]

13 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I didn't serve a mission, I was too rebellious and sinful. With the new standards in place for worthiness now even fewer will go. If these same standards were in place 30 years ago I wouldn't have been able to go even if I wanted to.

I find it interesting that over the past year in my stake they are really trying to push getting our young men to serve missions. The numbers are insane- only 1 in 10 LDS young men in our area are serving missions and we live in the heartland of the LDS belt. Their challenge to us as leaders is for all young men to commit to serving a full time mission. I had a hard time with coming to terms with this challenge and discussed it with my bishop. He told me that my main job and calling is to be there for all the young men who don't serve. Their worth is still the same in God's eyes and we need to be even more diligent in helping those who don't serve missions to remain in the church and connected to God.

The real cause of this lopsided number is due to what's happening in the home. Families are not preparing children to have strong faith in the Lord and to put Him first in their lives. We see this in our idol worship of sports and climbing the social world ladder. We have this casualness as parents to build our little world up around us and put God secondary in goal setting. We have this attitude of "not now God, I'm busy building my world". Our worship of sports in our kids lives is horrific. I was guilty of it too. My son was really good at baseball. He was the Captain and best player on his HS team. He was invited to participate in the Junior Olympics. I had great grandeur for him. I dreamed of him playing at the highest levels. Needless to say, it's not what God had in store for him. Through a series of miracles and injury to his pitching arm he never even played college ball. Now he is a director in an after school program and a physical education teacher for elementary school kids. 

My point is that we live our lives through our children and often times do not realize that the mission of God of bringing souls to him, saving the lost, is of most importance. I never pushed my kid in spiritual things let alone to serve a mission. I don't think it was in his cards anyway in hindsight.

If we want change, it has to start in the home. Leaders can only do so much. 

There were a few surprises for me when I served a mission.  The greatest was how many found being a missionary difficult.  Often when I was asked how many missionaries were serving in our mission - my answer was, "About half of them".  I requested to be released from mission leadership because I thought my covenant was to be a missionary to teach investigators and not a baby sitter for elders or sisters lacking testimonies of who they serve.  I have come to understand this error of my youth - As Latter-day Saints we all have an obligation to teach and lift one another as much as new converts - It is not about doctrine it is about serving with love and "lifting where we stand".

There is no magic bullet to spiritual conversion.  What happens at home is important but many great missionaries serve with no support from their childhood or homes and many a youth rebels even though they have righteous parents.  Lucifer was raised in the best possible home.  But with all said and done - there is an element of youth that is not missionary material but for a young man or young lady that has spiritual connections to G-d - if they are not anxious and more than willing - but driven to serve a mission - that is a red flag.  A red flag that if not overcome is most likely to be a life long problem.  I am convinced that regardless of all other elements in the life of a youth - if there is not a driving force to serve G-d and their fellow man - not much else will matter all that much.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

There were a few surprises for me when I served a mission.  The greatest was how many found being a missionary difficult.  Often when I was asked how many missionaries were serving in our mission - my answer was, "About half of them".  I requested to be released from mission leadership because I thought my covenant was to be a missionary to teach investigators and not a baby sitter for elders or sisters lacking testimonies of who they serve.  I have come to understand this error of my youth - As Latter-day Saints we all have an obligation to teach and lift one another as much as new converts - It is not about doctrine it is about serving with love and "lifting where we stand".

There is no magic bullet to spiritual conversion.  What happens at home is important but many great missionaries serve with no support from their childhood or homes and many a youth rebels even though they have righteous parents.  Lucifer was raised in the best possible home.  But with all said and done - there is an element of youth that is not missionary material but for a young man or young lady that has spiritual connections to G-d - if they are not anxious and more than willing - but driven to serve a mission - that is a red flag.  A red flag that if not overcome is most likely to be a life long problem.  I am convinced that regardless of all other elements in the life of a youth - if there is not a driving force to serve G-d and their fellow man - not much else will matter all that much.

 

The Traveler

Aye, and that driving force has been vacated from the home. That was my point.

[Vort]

I raised my boys with the "when you serve a mission" attitude rather than "if you serve a mission". It was as much a natural expectation as graduating high school or starting to shave. As they enter young adulthood, I make it clear to them that serving the Lord, whether on a mission or in other ways, is their choice. They pick their path. So far, all have opted to serve missions.

I try not to brag about my children, because that's tacky and because my children are not perfect. But I do take a whole lot of pride in them, in celebration of their good decisions and in spite of their bad ones.

[Traveler]

22 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I never pushed my kids either.  My husband and I simply lived our lives dedicated to God.  Our children followed.  

As I learned from my father - I encouraged (pushed) my kids to do good things and a mission I considered a good thing.  Some of my kids did not serve a mission - and though I was disappointed - I still love them - and my one son that did not serve a mission has married in the temple.  I believe that there are blessings lost from not serving but life goes on and there are other blessings.

 

The Traveler

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

18 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Because of what you just said, I need to make sure I am clear about something.

My bishop is no SJW.  He is not a "heterodox Mormon".  His kids are about the most upstanding kids there are in the ward.  And I know they themselves do everything they can to encourage their kids to go on a mission.

The problem that he described was twofold:

1. Many young men simply aren't worthy.  And a big part of it is pornography and self-abuse -- or worse.  It is rampant.
2. Too many families are not even planning on their sons going on a mission.  The old custom of raising your boys to go on a mission from day one is just not happening in as many homes that we'd expect.  So, most boys don't even realize they are supposed to go.

He saw these as flaws that should be fixed.  But they are a reality that we need to be aware of.  He wasn't cheering it on.  He wasn't defending it.  He wasn't saying that we SHOULD go that direction.  He was seeing patterns of the world creeping into the Church.  And he was saddened by it.  But he needed to make us aware that it was a thing.

This is not a result of our licentious society. It is a parental failure and I think this is why the Prophet is changing so many things to encourage gospel-centric homes.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

I raised my boys with the "when you serve a mission" attitude rather than "if you serve a mission". It was as much a natural expectation as graduating high school or starting to shave. As they enter young adulthood, I make it clear to them that serving the Lord, whether on a mission or in other ways, is their choice. They pick their path. So far, all have opted to serve missions.

I try not to brag about my children, because that's tacky and because my children are not perfect. But I do take a whole lot of pride in them, in celebration of their good decisions and in spite of their bad ones.

I think the current attitude has created a culture of casualness in the church. A lot of youth speak about going on a mission as some type of duty placed on them by parents that they truly never grasp the wanting to serve. I remember an old employer I worked for who was really pushing his kid to serve and one day I was talking to the young man and I asked him "do you want to serve a mission, or are you doing this to please your dad?" Well, the dad overheard this and gave me a reprimand of sorts stating it was required of him to serve and I shouldn't place doubts in him. To this day I don't speak with any of my youth with a tone of expectation they serve a mission. Neither do I do such with getting married in the temple. I calmly just ask- "So what are your plans? You thinking about a mission, college, work?" No matter their response, I always show an encouraging tone in my voice for what their desire is at that time. Subtly though, in lessons and in bearing testimony I can state the power of serving a mission and how it's a good thing. I am against the brainwashing and casualness in which our culture has now accepted. It's an attitude of belief that rather than placing as utmost importance the individual conversion, it's about the checklist items and making it the standard whereby we believe it has power to exalt ourselves.

I had a bishop a few years ago who bragged it all up Everytime the subject arose about how his kids all served missions, they all got married in the temple and we should pattern our decisions around him. Needless to say, he was the sole leading factor to my son going inactive. I think he meant well, he just lacked the pure love of Christ (conversion in his heart) in his words. But it's that culture, that's what really was the reason. Think about it- when we speak of 16-18 year old young men our expectation is that they serve a full-time mission. That's what first comes to our brainwashed minds. It's the absolute truth. What should our first expectation really be? How about this- how is he doing? Our concern for his individual conversion to Christ. That should be our expectation -have they found Christ yet?