Mothers Have the Primary Role of Teaching in the Home

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, LadyGunnar said:

My role as a mother is this, I gave them life, I carried them, I care for them, I am teaching them how to great, responsible adults. I teach them the gospel using counsel  that we were given when we were sealed and that is found in blessings we have been given.  I know that I will be held accountable for how I have raised my kids. 

I am thinking that you and I see this world in very different lights.

Different, certainly.  But not as different as you seem to intone here.  Be that as it may, I can't tell you what to do with your life and your family. I wish the best for you despite our differences.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, LadyGunnar said:

My role as a mother is this, I gave them life, I carried them, I care for them, I am teaching them how to great, responsible adults. I teach them the gospel using counsel  that we were given when we were sealed and that is found in blessings we have been given.  I know that I will be held accountable for how I have raised my kids. 

I am thinking that you and I see this world in very different lights.

From where I'm sitting, you typify exactly what @Carborendum (and the linked talk) is talking about.  Nurture.

[LadyGunnar]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

From where I'm sitting, you typify exactly what @Carborendum (and the linked talk) is talking about.  Nurture.

expect the fact that my husband is an equal partner in teaching our child.  It's not all on me as their mother. My husband and I are equal partners in all that we do with our kids.  

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, LadyGunnar said:

expect the fact that my husband is an equal partner in teaching our child.  It's not all on me as their mother. My husband and I are equal partners in all that we do with our kids.  

Which is also the exact same words in the talk.

Now, the problem with modern feminists is they use the word “equal”  as synonymous to “the same”.  Hopefully, that’s not what you mean.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, LadyGunnar said:

expect the fact that my husband is an equal partner in teaching our child.  It's not all on me as their mother. My husband and I are equal partners in all that we do with our kids.  

I've said nothing that should be interpreted as opposing this.  You might be reading more into it than was stated.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Guest

[LadyGunnar]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I've said nothing that should be interpreted as opposing this.  You might be reading more into it than was stated.

You said that mother are responsible for teaching the gospel to their children. That fathers are to preside and make sure the kids listen to their moms and that she has all the right materials. That kinda puts it all on the mother to teach their children.  My husband and I are equal partners in teaching our children.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, LadyGunnar said:

You said that mother are responsible for teaching the gospel to their children. That fathers are to preside and make sure the kids listen to their moms and that she has all the right materials. That kinda puts it all on the mother to teach their children.  My husband and I are equal partners in teaching our children.

Out of context.  Here's some context.

18 hours ago, Carborendum said:

There is nothing that says a father can't do this as well.  Just look at the scriptures above.  They both refer to FATHERS nurturing.  But the message Elder Eyring gave was that the "primary" responsibility for this falls on the mothers.

"Primary" responsibility may be 50.01% up to 99.99% depending on individual circumstances.  And this may go out the window if there is some disability or other far outside the norm circumstances.  But I was addressing the rule, not the exceptions.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Guest

[LadyGunnar]

On 11/13/2018 at 5:51 AM, Carborendum said:

Twice now in our Elders Quorum meeting, we have been told that the sisters have a fear regarding the recent change to Church Curriculum.  They fear that they will be saddled with all the work of teaching the children in the home.  Each time, this was brought up as an admonition to us: Don't let that happen!!!

Well, I don't know why it is a "fear" as much as a "reality".

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/women-and-gospel-learning-in-the-home?lang=eng

During the women's session of conference, they were flat out told that a) this was GOING to happen and b) it is SUPPOSED to happen.

 

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Out of context.  Here's some context.

"Primary" responsibility may be 50.01% up to 99.99% depending on individual circumstances.  And this may go out the window if there is some disability or other far outside the norm circumstances.  But I was addressing the rule, not the exceptions.

In your orginal post you said it is a reality that woman will be 'saddled' with all the work of teaching their child.  Sounds to me like you think it's  all on the mom while the dad sits and watches over it all like a king.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, LadyGunnar said:

In your orginal post you said it is a reality that woman will be 'saddled' with all the work of teaching their child.  Sounds to me like you think it's  all on the mom while the dad sits and watches over it all like a king.

Yes, I did say "we have been told..."

Rather than correcting every word that needed correcting and qualifying every statement and phrase, I ran responded to "the topic" as in a general idea.  As you raised concerns, objections, etc. I felt the need to be specific and add more context.

For example, the way you phrased your original response it sure sounded like you meant that the husband is supposed to do 100% of the teaching and the wife was just supposed to step back and cheer him on.  THAT sounded quite 100% opposite of what I said.

But then you qualified that by saying that you and your husband were "equal partners", which is exactly how I would have state my position.  You didn't catch me picking at straws in your position.  I just added that into the bulk of what you had said and realized,"Oh, I get what she's saying now.  I guess she's not too far away from where I'm thinking after all."

Note: I am not trying to belittle you.  I'm actually trying to bridge a gap.  I hope you take all this with that understanding.  I'm trying to show that we agree more than we disagree.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Guest

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, LadyGunnar said:

 

In your orginal post you said it is a reality that woman will be 'saddled' with all the work of teaching their child.  Sounds to me like you think it's  all on the mom while the dad sits and watches over it all like a king.

Do you believe in Gender Roles as professed in the Family: A Proclamation to the World?  Do you think that because a man is to preside over his family that he gets to "sit and watch over it all like a king"?  Is it your understanding that a KING (as Jesus is called King of Kings and as David and Solomon are kings) doesn't work but just sits leisurely on a throne?  Do you think that a King (or President) is not equal to... say, a Queen, a councilor, or a teacher?  Do you believe that the Bishop in your ward is not equal to your Nursery Teacher?  Do you think that a King, Bishop, President has less work than a teacher?  Do you think the First Presidency "just sit and watch over it all"?

And this is WHY @Carborendum's OP is important.  There are too many people who think equality means you have to be doing the same thing.  A teacher is somehow "lowlier" than being in a presidency.  Being ordained into the Priesthood or being called into a presidency somehow affords a certain "prestige" and worse, "less work".  Having a paying job doing STEM is somehow more prestigious than having an unpaid job of raising children, etc. etc. etc.

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by anatess2

[LadyGunnar]

40 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Do you believe in Gender Roles as professed in the Family: A Proclamation to the World?  Do you think that because a man is to preside over his family that he gets to "sit and watch over it all like a king"?  Is it your understanding that a KING (as Jesus is called King of Kings and as David and Solomon are kings) doesn't work but just sits leisurely on a throne?  Do you think that a King (or President) is not equal to... say, a Queen, a councilor, or a teacher?  Do you believe that the Bishop in your ward is not equal to your Nursery Teacher?  Do you think that a King, Bishop, President has less work than a teacher?  Do you think the First Presidency "just sit and watch over it all"?

And this is WHY @Carborendum's OP is important.  There are too many people who think equality means you have to be doing the same thing.  A teacher is somehow "lowlier" than being in a presidency.  Being ordained into the Priesthood or being called into a presidency somehow affords a certain "prestige" and worse, "less work".  Having a paying job doing STEM is somehow more prestigious than having an unpaid job of raising children, etc. etc. etc.

 

I believe that husband and wife should do what is best for their families. I don't believe that a wife should do all the heavy lifting while the husband sits and watches. 

I was raised that I can do anything a man can. My dad taught me how to do everything that he taught my brothers. He didn't want his girls having to depend on others to do something. I can shoe a horse, chop wood, work on cars, shoot and clean a gun, slaughter and dress an animal.  I can also make amazing wedding cakes, sew, cook and bake.  I am teaching all my kids the same things.

I don't think one is better than another as long as you do your best. I dislike people acting like women belong in the dark ages. Like when we were human cattle. I will not deny that. I believe that men and women are the same. We are all human and children of God. 

[anatess2]

25 minutes ago, LadyGunnar said:

I believe that husband and wife should do what is best for their families. I don't believe that a wife should do all the heavy lifting while the husband sits and watches. 

I was raised that I can do anything a man can. My dad taught me how to do everything that he taught my brothers. He didn't want his girls having to depend on others to do something. I can shoe a horse, chop wood, work on cars, shoot and clean a gun, slaughter and dress an animal.  I can also make amazing wedding cakes, sew, cook and bake.  I am teaching all my kids the same things.

I don't think one is better than another as long as you do your best. I dislike people acting like women belong in the dark ages. Like when we were human cattle. I will not deny that. I believe that men and women are the same. We are all human and children of God. 

I'm going to dig on this because I don't think you understand AT ALL what we are saying because of your preconceived notions.  So, we're going to simplify.

So, do you think that when someone says "traditional gender role" that this means "women belong in the dark ages"?

and

"Men and Women are the same" so you think there is no difference between Males and Females and they should be expected to do the same things and have the same outcomes?  So that having more male laborers and more female homemakers is an inequality that needs to be corrected?

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by anatess2

[LadyGunnar]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

I'm going to dig on this because I don't think you understand AT ALL what we are saying because of your preconceived notions.  So, we're going to simplify.

So, do you think that when someone says "traditional gender role" that this means "women belong in the dark ages"?

and

"Men and Women are the same" so you think there is no difference between Males and Females and they should be expected to do the same things and have the same outcomes?  So that having more male engineers and more female nurses is an inequality that needs to be corrected?

 

I have male friends that are nurses. They are amazing at their job. My brother and bil are both engineers.  They work with women who do their jobs great.  My niece is going to college to be an engineer.  She will be great at it. 

 I don't think it's a big deal if a man wants to be a nurse or a woman an engineer. 

Women carry babies, but we can't make a baby without a man.   Both are parents. 

I don't want to live in a time when my daughter is told that she is only good for staying home, barefoot and pregnant.  She can do whatever she wants. I am thankful that she will have a choice in it. 

 I stay home with our kids. I worked to put my husband through college. But I support the right of any woman to work or to not work. 

   I don't like when men start in on traditional gender roles. I have had too many men treat me like I am less than them because I am female.  I worked in a field where men treated me like I was dumb because I was female.  I guess being male made them smarter or something. It brings out the fighting part of me when people start in on it.

People need to do what is best for them and their families. 

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, LadyGunnar said:

I have male friends that are nurses. They are amazing at their job. My brother and bil are both engineers.  They work with women who do their jobs great.  My niece is going to college to be an engineer.  She will be great at it. 

 I don't think it's a big deal if a man wants to be a nurse or a woman an engineer. 

Women carry babies, but we can't make a baby without a man.   Both are parents. 

I don't want to live in a time when my daughter is told that she is only good for staying home, barefoot and pregnant.  She can do whatever she wants. I am thankful that she will have a choice in it. 

 I stay home with our kids. I worked to put my husband through college. But I support the right of any woman to work or to not work. 

   I don't like when men start in on traditional gender roles. I have had too many men treat me like I am less than them because I am female.  I worked in a field where men treated me like I was dumb because I was female.  I guess being male made them smarter or something. It brings out the fighting part of me when people start in on it.

People need to do what is best for them and their families. 

I edited my post to be more relevant to our topic of gender roles in the family.  Instead of engineers versus nurses, it's more relevant to use laborers vs homemakers.

"I have male friends who..." is not relevant to the topic of gender roles.  The fact remains that nursing is an industry that is dominated by women and engineering is an industry that is dominated by men.  Is this an inequality to you?  It sure is not the same.

So, you've repeated "what is best for their families".  Do you think that a man who is the laborer and the woman as the homemaker is THE SAME as the woman who is the laborer and the man as the homemaker?  Or do you think one is better than the other and that you do what is better unless it's not possible so you settle with the less than ideal option?

Edited November 14, 2018 by anatess2

[LadyGunnar]

36 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I edited my post to be more relevant to our topic of gender roles in the family.  Instead of engineers versus nurses, it's more relevant to use laborers vs homemakers.

"I have male friends who..." is not relevant to the topic of gender roles.  The fact remains that nursing is an industry that is dominated by women and engineering is an industry that is dominated by men.  Is this an inequality to you?  It sure is not the same.

So, you've repeated "what is best for their families".  Do you think that a man who is the laborer and woman as the homemaker is THE SAME as the woman who is the laborer and the man as the homemaker?  Or do you think one is better than the other and that you do what is better unless it's not possible so you settle with the less than ideal option?

everyone's family is different.  I see no difference if a woman works and the man stays home or if the man works and the woman stays home. You need to do what is best for your family. Some men would go crazy at home with the kids and so do some women.   I think that there is no reason to draw lines in the sand with what is or isn't same and equal.  

No one lives the same life.  No has the same talents or ideas. That's part of what makes life interesting.  Some women have to work to support their families. Some are single or widowed moms, some have husbands that get sick and can't work.  I think it's wonderful that they can work and support their families. 

My grandmother wasn't so lucky. She had an abusive alcoholic husband. He didn't work much and when he did, he drank all the money away. She had a hard time finding work. Because that was a man's job to support the family. She left the loser behind and struggled to become a nurse to support her family. 

I am thankful we are not in that time period. I am thankful that women can work if they want to or they need to.

I will say it again, It all comes down to doing your best for you and your family. There is no cookie cutter answer to what is best for all. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, LadyGunnar said:

 I don't like when men start in on traditional gender roles.

Even if that man is an apostle of the Lord?

[anatess2]

23 hours ago, LadyGunnar said:

everyone's family is different.  I see no difference if a woman works and the man stays home or if the man works and the woman stays home. You need to do what is best for your family. Some men would go crazy at home with the kids and so do some women.   I think that there is no reason to draw lines in the sand with what is or isn't same and equal.  

No one lives the same life.  No has the same talents or ideas. That's part of what makes life interesting.  Some women have to work to support their families. Some are single or widowed moms, some have husbands that get sick and can't work.  I think it's wonderful that they can work and support their families. 

My grandmother wasn't so lucky. She had an abusive alcoholic husband. He didn't work much and when he did, he drank all the money away. She had a hard time finding work. Because that was a man's job to support the family. She left the loser behind and struggled to become a nurse to support her family. 

I am thankful we are not in that time period. I am thankful that women can work if they want to or they need to.

I will say it again, It all comes down to doing your best for you and your family. There is no cookie cutter answer to what is best for all. 

See, once again we're talking about micro-examples instead of principles.  When we teach principles, for example, Refrain from coffee, then you say, "My grandmother's seatmate in 2nd grade drank coffee as prescribed by his doctor to alleviate his migraines"... it doesn't change the Principle to Refrain from Coffee.

So, from what I gather, you believe that this statement in the Proclamation of the Family is WRONG as it differentiates the role of the Father from the Mother when in your belief, Fathers and Mothers are equally interchangeable?

By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children.

Edited November 15, 2018 by anatess2

[classylady]

I have to admit that Pres. Eyring’s talk has been an eye-opener. In my mind, whenever I heard the word nurture, my understanding was that it meant: to love, encourage, support, look after, strengthen. I would think of a mother hen hovering over her chicks and protecting them, helping them find food, etc. I admit I never focused on the teaching part of it. Though, when I think about it, as a full time mother, who spends the most time with the young children? So, where are they learning their speech and other behaviors from? It’s primarily the mother. As the children get a little older, in a traditional home, father also teaches. Much of this teaching from both mother and father is by example.

In our home it has primarily been me that taught gospel principles. My husband just never seemed inclined to bring it up. He was supportive, but never really instigated gospel discussions. Same with FHE. If we held it, I instigated it, and taught the lesson. I truly wish my husband would have taken a stronger role—at least suggesting we hold FHE, and not leaving it all up to me. But, I do admit my husband was good about instigating family scripture study. Since reading Pres. Eyring’s talk, I’m not as upset with my hubby as I was. I probably should have been more consistent in holding FHE.

[LadyGunnar]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

See, once again we're talking about micro-examples instead of principles.  When we teach principles, for example, Refrain from coffee, then you say, "My grandmother's seatmate in 2nd grade drank coffee as prescribed by his doctor to alleviate his migraines"... it doesn't change the Principle to Refrain from Coffee.

So, from what I gather, you believe that this statement in the Proclamation of the Family is WRONG as it differentiates the role of the Father from the Mother when in your belief, Fathers and Mothers are equally interchangeable?

By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children.

What I believe is that we don't live in a perfect world.  Some men cannot provide for the necessities if life without help from their wives.  Some women have to work to support their families. Some families have only one parents.   I think that we cannot be rigid in how we live.  Life isn't perfect and doesn't always go the way it was planned.  So when I say do the best for your family, that is what I mean. 

I have had friends crying and brokenhearted because of people talking like this. Because their lives are not the 'normal' ones. I am coming from the spot of the underdog. The ones that seem to always be kicked down. Sorry that you cannot or will not see that. 

[Fether]

39 minutes ago, LadyGunnar said:

What I believe is that we don't live in a perfect world.  Some men cannot provide for the necessities if life without help from their wives.  Some women have to work to support their families. Some families have only one parents.   I think that we cannot be rigid in how we live.  Life isn't perfect and doesn't always go the way it was planned.  So when I say do the best for your family, that is what I mean. 

I have had friends crying and brokenhearted because of people talking like this. Because their lives are not the 'normal' ones. I am coming from the spot of the underdog. The ones that seem to always be kicked down. Sorry that you cannot or will not see that. 

Your using all the exceptions to argue that the overall principle is wrong.

Your arguement style is similar to the pro-choice stance of using violent malicious rape as justification for all abortions and then using the sympathy card to make us all look like heartless, narrow minded hypocrites.

“By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities,Fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners.”

- Family Proclamation

I’m all for teaching exceptions, but don’t ever make the exceptions more important than the principle.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, classylady said:

I have to admit that Pres. Eyring’s talk has been an eye-opener. In my mind, whenever I heard the word nurture, my understanding was that it meant: to love, encourage, support, look after, strengthen. I would think of a mother hen hovering over her chicks and protecting them, helping them find food, etc. I admit I never focused on the teaching part of it. Though, when I think about it, as a full time mother, who spends the most time with the young children? So, where are they learning their speech and other behaviors from? It’s primarily the mother. As the children get a little older, in a traditional home, father also teaches. Much of this teaching from both mother and father is by example.

In our home it has primarily been me that taught gospel principles. My husband just never seemed inclined to bring it up. He was supportive, but never really instigated gospel discussions. Same with FHE. If we held it, I instigated it, and taught the lesson. I truly wish my husband would have taken a stronger role—at least suggesting we hold FHE, and not leaving it all up to me. But, I do admit my husband was good about instigating family scripture study. Since reading Pres. Eyring’s talk, I’m not as upset with my hubby as I was. I probably should have been more consistent in holding FHE.

I'm unable to find the G.C. address where the beginning went something like this:

"In early childhood, there is no question that a mother's role is paramount to the rearing of a child.  As the child grows, the role of the father becomes increasingly important."

This was meant to remind everyone that fathers are important too.  And they need to do their share of rearing.  In this society, it has become highly enamored with exalting the role of mother in the home -- and rightly so.  But the side-effect has been to ignore and even deride the role of father. This is as undesirable as an absent mother.

A picture I was recently told about, and cannot find it on the net.  It was supposedly about a mother's love.  I believe the title was even "a mother's love".  We see a mother snuggling and caring for a child in her arms as pristine and as pure as a Shakespearean sonnet. 

Then we see the mother is sitting on a big block. 
Then we see the block is being held up by two hands. 
The hands are that of a man. 
The man is standing in the swamp keeping the alligators from eating them alive.

I believe this fact is held so far from today's society that father's don't think they have a true role in the family anymore.  But they do.

Wow, two searches failed in a single post.  What has happened to my powers if googlocity?

Edited November 16, 2018 by Guest

[LadyGunnar]

4 hours ago, Fether said:

Your using all the exceptions to argue that the overall principle is wrong.

Your arguement style is similar to the pro-choice stance of using violent malicious rape as justification for all abortions and then using the sympathy card to make us all look like heartless, narrow minded hypocrites.

“By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities,Fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners.”

- Family Proclamation

I’m all for teaching exceptions, but don’t ever make the exceptions more important than the principle.

I have never said that it was wrong.  I don't  believe that it is. I think that there are a lot of good people doing their very best, in situations that are not ideal. 

Life is full of hardships. You don't know what people are dealing with. You are not them.  You can only know what is the right path for you.

   I stand by saying that I think people need to do what is best for them and their families. Most people are trying their very best to do what is right for while trying to keep their heads above water.  Life isn't easy or perfect.  Try not to beat the ones that are already down.

[zil]

Part of my calling is to figure out which talks to use for RS lessons.  I was impressed that our January talks should come from the women's session, and this (President Eyring's) was one of them.  As I wrote up the email documenting the schedule for the month, I considered some of the things said in this thread, and things I have heard in person, more particularly from older women, reflecting the idea that it was their husbands who had studied the scriptures and understood the gospel and they "just" took care of the home and children.

But the thought occurred to me that perhaps people think the wrong thing when they hear "teacher".  Perhaps they think of stacks of books and of someone who practically has the scriptures memorized.  But aren't we told that the gospel of Jesus Christ is simple?  Can't reading with your children include the scriptures (isn't that why they make the children's version)?  Cannot childhood worries or disappointment present an opportunity to teach prayer and faith?  Cannot a mother use an instance of quarreling siblings (or even parental bad behavior) to teach the ideas of repentance and forgiveness, mercy and long-suffering, patience and kindness?  Can you think of a better way to teach, learn, and practice virtue?

It seems to me that teaching in the home doesn't require a PhD in the gospel, but rather willingness to view everyday events through the lens of Christlike virtues and habits, and to spend a lifetime weaving the two together.  And I can't imagine a reason for any mother to fear or avoid that sort of nurturing.

Edited December 17, 2018 by zil

[Guest]

2 hours ago, zil said:

Part of my calling is to figure out which talks to use for RS lessons.  I was impressed that our January talks should come from the women's session, and this (President Eyring's) was one of them.  As I wrote up the email documenting the schedule for the month, I considered some of the things said in this thread, and things I have heard in person, more particularly from older women, reflecting the idea that it was their husbands who had studied the scriptures and understood the gospel and they "just" took care of the home and children.

But the thought occurred to me that perhaps people think the wrong thing when they hear "teacher".  Perhaps they think of stacks of books and of someone who practically has the scriptures memorized.  But aren't we told that the gospel of Jesus Christ is simple?  Can't reading with your children include the scriptures (isn't that why they make the children's version)?  Cannot childhood worries or disappointment present an opportunity to teach prayer and faith?  Cannot a mother use an instance of quarreling siblings (or even parental bad behavior) to teach the ideas of repentance and forgiveness, mercy and long-suffering, patience and kindness?  Can you think of a better way to teach, learn, and practice virtue?

It seems to me that teaching in the home doesn't require a PhD in the gospel, but rather willingness to view everyday events through the lens of Christlike virtues and habits, and to spend a lifetime weaving the two together.  And I can't imagine a reason for any mother to fear or avoid that sort of nurturing.

This appears to separate different aspects of teaching.  We can look at it in two dichotomies.

• Doctrine vs. Application.
• Precept vs. Example.

I think that it is a mistake to link these to the dichotomy of Father vs. Mother.  It really is a better situation when the mother primarily does both and the father confirms, supports, and reinforces.  I don't know if that was what you were going for.  But that is something people tend to do.

[anatess2]

On 11/16/2018 at 1:27 AM, LadyGunnar said:

I have never said that it was wrong.  I don't  believe that it is. I think that there are a lot of good people doing their very best, in situations that are not ideal. 

Life is full of hardships. You don't know what people are dealing with. You are not them.  You can only know what is the right path for you.

   I stand by saying that I think people need to do what is best for them and their families. Most people are trying their very best to do what is right for while trying to keep their heads above water.  Life isn't easy or perfect.  Try not to beat the ones that are already down.

I hate these types of discussions.

You talk principles and somebody always pipe up... But <exceptions>!  You're beating ones that are already down!

So... people stop talking about principles such that the principle becomes, "Life is full of hardships... do whatever works for you."  So then the principles are lost.  I mean, people tend to think they're the exception when they simply have no wish to apply or even try the principle.