Criminal Justice Reform

[Tyme]

Yay or nay?

[Guest MormonGator]

That's a very, very broad topic. What specifically would you like to see changed?  

Edited November 15, 2018 by MormonGator

[Tyme]

I’m referring to the bipartisan bill that Trump supports. I’d personally like to see it go a lot farther.

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Tyme said:

I’m referring to the bipartisan bill that Trump supports. I’d personally like to see it go a lot farther.

This is also still too broad.

There are different versions of it and there's no concensus yet on what version the final bill is going to be.  The House version to spend on rehabilitation instead of incarceration is a good one.  This is actually something that I ran a simulated Systems Engineering design for using crime data from Jackson County, Mo, proving that rehabilitation expense is a net-gain through employment taxes if the economy is an employee market (as is currently starting).

 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

23 minutes ago, Tyme said:

I’m referring to the bipartisan bill that Trump supports. I’d personally like to see it go a lot farther.

What parts of the bill do you like or agree with? 

I think we need to focus more on rehabilitation than punishment, but I admit that it's also a very vague statement. And, I admit that if someone mugged my father, I'd want them to go to jail for a decade. 

So "reform" is actually incredibly complex. 

[Tyme]

Just now, MormonGator said:

What parts of the bill do you like or agree with? 

I think we need to focus more on rehabilitation than punishment, but I admit that it's also a very vague statement. And, I admit that if someone mugged my father, I'd want them to go to jail for a decade. 

So "reform" is actually incredibly complex. 

For starters, I’d like to see light drugs decriminalized. The heavier drugs should have a three strike policy. If you get caught with them the first two times you get help and essentiallya warning. The third time you face a prison sentence. The hopes with the prison sentence is that an addict would hit rock bottom and clean up.

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Tyme said:

For starters, I’d like to see light drugs decriminalized. The heavier drugs should have a three strike policy. If you get caught with them the first two times you get help and essentiallya warning. The third time you face a prison sentence. The hopes with the prison sentence is that an addict would hit rock bottom and clean up.

I'd go a step further and pardon all non violent drug offenders. Some "light drugs" need to fully legalized, not just decriminalized. 
I'd also pardon people who have non violent felonies and let them own firearms, vote, etc. 

So many people are in favor of "reforms". 

[Tyme]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'd go a step further and pardon all non violent drug offenders. Some "light drugs" need to fully legalized, not just decriminalized. 
I'd also pardon people who have non violent felonies and let them own firearms, vote, etc. 

So many people are in favor of "reforms". 

That sounds like a plan. Let’s get you into office.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Tyme said:

That sounds like a plan. Let’s get you into office.

Reporter: Mr. Buckley, if you won the race for mayor, what would you do? 

William F Buckley: Demand a recount. 

[Just_A_Guy]

I can’t speak for all aspects of the criminal justice system, but my personal experience in Utah includes the following observations:

—If a drug crime goes federal, it’s because the person was either dealing, or caught up in the same dragnet with someone who was dealing.  It’s not the kids getting caught with weed for the first time, who are getting the huge prison sentences.  

—In the state system—at least, Utah—barring dealing, weapons, massive quantities in possession, or other aggravating circumstances, in practice you probably aren’t going to “prison” on a first-time drug charge.  Here, your first offense will probably  be a plea-in-abeyance on a Class A misdemeanor.  Your second will be charged as a Class A, reduced to a Class B in exchange for a guilty plea, and you *may* do a month or two of jail—or maybe not.  Your third will be charged as an A, and they won’t reduce; but you won’t do more than a year in jail and probably a great deal less.  Your fourth will be counted as a third (since they don’t count the plea in abeyance) and then you’re likely to be charged with a felony because at that point you’re officially a “repeat offender”—and even then, the prosecutor may still wind up reducing it to an A and you will do less than a year, if you do any time at all.  (In Utah, you only go to “prison” if you’ll be incarcerated for a year or more; otherwise, you are housed at the “jail”.)  If you play your cards right, you’re very unlikely to go to “prison” on a drug charge until your fifth conviction at least.  I realize that different places do things differently; but at least as far as Utah goes:  a person who talks about all those poor drug offenders who are in prison for “one mistake”, or protests that they aren’t really “hardened criminals”, betrays a lot of unfamiliarity with the status quo.  

—As implied above, most incarceration of drug offenders comes from the following issues:

••Many, many repeat offenses

••Dealing

••Weapons

••Pimping

••Repeated failure to comply with the terms of probation (including, often, failing to get into or remain in treatment) after pleading to a lower charge than what the facts warranted.

—I generally agree with the idea of giving judges broad discretion in sentencing—the mandatory minimum matrices that have to be used in the federal system come off as very arbitrary.  But the flip side of that is that federal judges face less pressure to incarcerate dangerous prisoners, because they aren’t subject to re-election/retention votes.  That has its up sides and its down sides; but the matrices exist in the first place because some federal judges were perceived as being too soft on crime.  As long as you have lifetime appointments to the federal bench and literally thousands of prosecutable federal crimes on the books, there *will* be federal sentencing guidelines; and the harshness of those guidelines will wax and wane over time.  

—Rehab isn’t a panacea.  Graduates of a really good program will see a 40% sobriety rate after five years.

—I’m aware of the literature saying rehab is ultimately cheaper than incarceration, and I’m willing to go with it for now.  But I’ve been (visiting) in jail, and in state prison, and in rehab clinics; and if there’s *less* money going into those clinics and programs than there is at the detention facilities, then I want to know where in Sam Hades the Corrections Division is spending its money.  I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see us transition to a decriminaliztion/treatment regimen for drug offenders and, ten years down the road, find that we’re spending two or three times as much on rehab as we did on incarceration.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[mirkwood]

I caught a guy with a methamphetamine lab, precursor chemicals (chems used to make meth), methamphetamine, five firearms, three of which had the serial numbers filed off, a stolen credit card and drug paraphernalia.  I booked him into jail on eleven felonies and two misdemeanors.  He spent 45 days in jail waiting for the preliminary hearing.  He was released after the preliminary hearing.  We went to trial, but he plead instead to the meth lab and one stolen firearm charge (what a deal for him.)  He was sentenced to time served (remember those 45 days) and two years probation.  

Yeah, we are REALLY hard on druggies.

 

 

[SpiritDragon]

2 hours ago, Tyme said:

For starters, I’d like to see light drugs decriminalized. The heavier drugs should have a three strike policy. If you get caught with them the first two times you get help and essentiallya warning. The third time you face a prison sentence. The hopes with the prison sentence is that an addict would hit rock bottom and clean up.

I'd move the other direction toward being harder on drugs... maybe not to the extent that Rodrigo Duterte has... but maybe.

[NeuroTypical]

Meanwhile, here in smoky Colorado, we've legislated ourselves into a hole.  Cartels show up with illegal slave labor, rent a dozen homes, turn them into MJ grow operations.  They can make $1m or more per house, maybe twice a year.  The process basically wrecks the rental properties with mold and destruction and fire damage and wiring/plumbing disasters.  Then they dissapear with a tip to the cops, who catch and deport their indentured workers.  And if they're caught at any point in the process, it's pretty hard to charge them with anything, because the closest they come to doing anything illegal, is making unauthorized modifications to a rental property, and maybe being an undocumented immigrant.  We've amended our state constitution to make it a constitutional right to grow mj plants.  Some of these are so big they have to be cut down with chain saws.

Colorado Springs has half a dozen full-time cops working year round, doing nothing but busting these illegal grow ups.  The second counselor in my bishopric had a rental property destroyed by these guys.  

Edited November 15, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

—I’m aware of the literature saying rehab is ultimately cheaper than incarceration, and I’m willing to go with it for now.  But I’ve been (visiting) in jail, and in state prison, and in rehab clinics; and if there’s *less* money going into those clinics and programs than there is at the detention facilities, then I want to know where in Sam Hades the Corrections Division is spending its money.  I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see us transition to a decriminaliztion/treatment regimen for drug offenders and, ten years down the road, find that we’re spending two or three times as much on rehab as we did on incarceration.

I did the study.  It's not cheaper than THE COST of incarceration.  Rather, the gains is realized by the difference between the taxes received from those who "graduate" from the program to successfully join the work-force minus the cost of the program and the cost of those who "graduate" from the program and end up on welfare subsidies (including those who end up back in jail). 

This gain is much much higher than the taxes received from those who "graduate' from incarceration and join the work-force minus the cost of incarceration and the cost of those who end up in welfare subsidies (including going back to jail).  

The 2nd set actually end up net negative for Jackson County, Mo (they have a high incarceration rate as a percentage of population with, at that time, a high level of unemployment for the county).  Whereas the 1st set ended up close to even.  It would be a net gain now with today's unemployment numbers.

Edited November 15, 2018 by anatess2

[dogwater]

We know very little about rehabilitation. Something for us to continue to explore as humanity.

[Tyme]

Here's some rag news for you. It's a Republican speaking so it might hold some credence with some of you. I'm focusing on the criminal justice reform part.

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/full-lindsey-graham-i-don-t-see-any-indication-that-doj-is-interfering-with-mueller-1374040643956

[askandanswer]

On 11/16/2018 at 8:03 AM, mirkwood said:

I caught a guy with a methamphetamine lab, precursor chemicals (chems used to make meth), methamphetamine, five firearms, three of which had the serial numbers filed off, a stolen credit card and drug paraphernalia.  I booked him into jail on eleven felonies and two misdemeanors.  He spent 45 days in jail waiting for the preliminary hearing.  He was released after the preliminary hearing.  We went to trial, but he plead instead to the meth lab and one stolen firearm charge (what a deal for him.)  He was sentenced to time served (remember those 45 days) and two years probation.  

Yeah, we are REALLY hard on druggies.

 

 

 

On 11/16/2018 at 8:21 AM, NeuroTypical said:

Meanwhile, here in smoky Colorado, we've legislated ourselves into a hole.  Cartels show up with illegal slave labor, rent a dozen homes, turn them into MJ grow operations.  They can make $1m or more per house, maybe twice a year.  The process basically wrecks the rental properties with mold and destruction and fire damage and wiring/plumbing disasters.  Then they dissapear with a tip to the cops, who catch and deport their indentured workers.  And if they're caught at any point in the process, it's pretty hard to charge them with anything, because the closest they come to doing anything illegal, is making unauthorized modifications to a rental property, and maybe being an undocumented immigrant.  We've amended our state constitution to make it a constitutional right to grow mj plants.  Some of these are so big they have to be cut down with chain saws.

Colorado Springs has half a dozen full-time cops working year round, doing nothing but busting these illegal grow ups.  The second counselor in my bishopric had a rental property destroyed by these guys.  

I'm seeing some promising business opportunities here. 

[Traveler]

Two things I have learned about any reforms initiated by law in our government.

#1. That whatever is said to be reforming - will not be reformed but will continue as it did before the reform - but by a different more politically correct term.

#2. There will be more government bureaucracy spending more $$$ which means more taxes (spending ie debt) is necessary to pay for the bureaucracy and whatever they are spending $$$$$ on. 

The biggest lie of government is "tax reform".

 

The Traveler