Abortion/Contraception/supporting a child

[Tyme]

Do you support abortion?

Are you in favor of contraception?

Do you think a child and family should be supported via government programs or other programs?

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Do you support abortion?

Not elective abortion-- such is a major sin.  Abortion in cases of rape, inset, or major medical risk may be considered after long/hard prayer.  

8 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Are you in favor of contraception?

There's nothing sinful about BC pills or condemns or an IUD or other such things.

8 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Do you think a child and family should be supported via government programs or other programs?

The extent to which a government is involved in financing what is between that government and it's people.  

[JohnsonJones]

27 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Do you support abortion?

As it was originally argued for in Roe vs. Wade (as I understand it), I do.

As it is argued for now and has evolved after that, especially taking ground in evolving in the legal movement since the 90s...not as much.

Originally it was approved of by the Supreme Court under the Phsyician's right.  In cases of health the Doctor could determine the best course of action to help his patient.  If certain medical procedures were outlawed it prevented the Doctor from acting in the best interest and health of their Patient.  The Court ruled that the Doctor had the say in treating their patient and thus could perform an abortion if their patient's health necessitated it.

Of course, that has been utilized as an argument for mental or emotional stability and all sorts of other arguments from more liberal doctors ensuing that decision.

It then developed that it wasn't even a Doctor's purview, but that of strictly a woman's choice which leads us to where we are today.

I think it is IRONIC though that many of those who are most strongly against Birth Control are the same who are against helping those who are in poverty and have children.  There are many excuses, but to say that those who cannot prevent having children (except by Abstinence) but not do anything to support them when inevitably children come is rather disgenius to me.  It is not something I really agree with.

Even more so as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I believe that young people should get married.  They should not put off getting married.  A great and honorable purpose of marriage is children.  They should not put off having children (personal opinion) for the things of the world.  Of course, when they inevitably have children that does not mean we abandon those couples and their families to the ravages of poverty, hunger, and insufficient means.  Instead we need to help them out and aid them as well as offering them opportunities to gain the ability to support themselves (living wage for starters, once again...my OWN PERSONAL opinion) and gain a hand up rather than holding them down.

We also believe one should not run faster than they can walk, but I do not find that a good reason to argue that a couple should not have children or bring children into a righteous family.  Children will come to the world whether it is to a righteous family or one who is not or one that has no connection to the gospel.  We should support bringing children into families that have the gospel and the truth, even if it is the young families just starting out who are still struggling to be able to support themselves in the world.  In a perfect church membership we would have NO POOR among us and they would have all opportunity to be able to provide for their families.  I hope that someday we can get to that point where even those who are newly married and just starting out can have all the opportunity in the world to raise a family in righteousness to the Lord without having to worry about whether they will be able to have a shelter for their babies heads or food for their young children's mouths.

[Just_A_Guy]

39 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Do you support abortion?

Are you in favor of contraception?

Do you think a child and family should be supported via government programs or other programs?

Do you support a man’s right to kill his wife?

Do you support a man’s right to decline to marry?

Do you think a divorced man, having been denied the opportunity to merely kill his wife and move on with his life, should be able to make the government pay his alimony for him?

[Tyme]

42 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Do you support a man’s right to kill his wife?

Do you support a man’s right to decline to marry?

Do you think a divorced man, having been denied the opportunity to merely kill his wife and move on with his life, should be able to make the government pay his alimony for him?

So... No, no and no.

[Grunt]

Abortion is a sin. 

I don't see a problem with contraception that prevents conception.  Contraception that actually aborts is the same as number 1.

Stealing from someone under threat of violence is also bad, regardless what you do with the money.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Tyme said:

Do you support abortion?

Are you in favor of contraception?

Do you think a child and family should be supported via government programs or other programs?

Support it? No. Agree to keep it legal? Yes. 

Yes, I am in favor of contraception. 

I think government assistance is absolutely crucial in our society but it's also ruined many lives. 

[Just_A_Guy]

5 hours ago, Tyme said:

So... No, no and no.

Actually:

—“Only in self-defense”

—“Yes, but don’t make me pay for it; and understand there may be consequences for your choice that you don’t appreciate now, and I’m not going to be held liable for those either.”  

—“Sometimes, in very extreme circumstances, subject to numerous conditions; and understanding that this is primarily the responsibility of the individual and not the government.”  

Those would be my respective answers to both your set of questions, and my own.   

Edited November 22, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[LadyGunnar]

Abortion only if the mother's life is in danger and in some case where the baby is incompatible with life. 

I am pro birth control. Use two forms if you don't want a baby. 

I am for government aid short term. 

 

Babies should be wanted. Don't have more than you can afford mentally,  physically and financially.  You can't count on other people or the government to take care of your family.

[Midwest LDS]

17 hours ago, Tyme said:

Do you support abortion?

Are you in favor of contraception?

Do you think a child and family should be supported via government programs or other programs?

Definite no on abortion, it's horrendous.

Contraception doesn't bother me at all thats between a man and his wife.

Ideally you would be able to rely on your own resources first, your families second, the church's third, and leave the government out of it completely. If you're talking tax breaks or something then that's fine, but the goverment should be uninvolved in welfare. They don't do it right and only create dependency and deficits with it.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Midwest LDS

[Tyme]

What’s the difference between a tax break and welfare? 

[Midwest LDS]

15 minutes ago, Tyme said:

What’s the difference between a tax break and welfare? 

Making someone exempt from certain taxes allows them to keep more of their own money to do with as they will. Welfare is money given to someone directly by the government that they didn't earn. Perhaps a small distinction, but an important one to me.

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, Tyme said:

What’s the difference between a tax break and welfare? 

With the former you have less money stolen from you.  With the latter you receive someone's stolen money.  

[NeuroTypical]

17 hours ago, Tyme said:

Do you support abortion?

Handbook 2, section 21.4.1

Quote

Abortion

The Lord commanded, “Thou shalt not … kill, nor do anything like unto it” (D&C 59:6). The Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience. Members must not submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion. The only possible exceptions are when:
1. Pregnancy resulted from forcible rape or incest.
2. A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy.
3. A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

Even these exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons responsible have consulted with their bishops and received divine confirmation through prayer.

Church members who submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion may be subject to Church discipline.

As far as has been revealed, a person may repent and be forgiven for the sin of abortion.

 

 

 

Quote

Are you in favor of contraception?

Handbook 2, section 21.4.4

Quote

Birth Control
It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear. The decision as to how many children to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.

Married couples should also understand that sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a way of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.

 

 

Quote

Do you think a child and family should be supported via government programs or other programs?

Handbook 2, section 6.1 - Welfare Principles and Self Reliance

The whole section is a good read.  Basically, we're big on self reliance.  If you can't do for yourself, your family should help.  If your family can't help, the church should help.  Self reliance is the goal.  Govt aid is fine as a temporary aid.  Intergenerational welfare is horrible and demeaning, and depresses the human soul instead of elevating it.

Also, Gospel Principles Chapter 27 - Work and Personal Responsibility.

Read it, learn it, love it.  These are good answers for anyone, either in the church or out.

 

 

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, Tyme said:

What’s the difference between a tax break and welfare? 

You can even take some of the oomph out of Grunt's answer and still have it.

Tax breaks let you keep more of your money.  Welfare is giving you someone else's money.

[Grunt]

34 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

You can even take some of the oomph out of Grunt's answer and still have it.

Tax breaks let you keep more of your money.  Welfare is giving you someone else's money.

I like my oomph

[Traveler]

Whenever we talk about issues - there are always circumstances that can and do change the morality of issues.  It is my opinion that no society can exist without morals.  I also believe that for a society to be stable and continue to exist it must define and enforce law.  As such all laws are an extension of the morals of a society.  Without morals there will be no law or enforcement of law - for very long.  The first moral of an individual is responsibility for their thought, beliefs and actions.  Thus I believe that the first order of law is to protect the individual's right to be personally responsible and second to punish those individuals that are not personally responsible based on their ability to be responsible.

When we say a woman has to right to have an abortion what are we saying?  Are we saying that such a woman is responsible?  In the case of rape - the irresponsible person would be the biological father.  I think there is a disconnect then it is considered moral for an abortion in the case of rape when there is no consequence for the perpetrator of the rape.  If we want a moral to exist in society the punishment for non-compliance must exceed the propensity of someone desiring to be immoral.  So if a society wishes to prevent unwanted pregnancies then that society must enact laws that will enact punishments for those involved in unwanted pregnancies that will mitigate their desire to be immoral and cause unwanted pregnancies - regardless or complicit to their economic status. 

It is my opinion that without morals there is no liberty, freedom or justice.  If an individual is not moral they are not free, experience liberty or justice.  If a society is not moral it it is not a free society nor does it protect liberty and enforce justice.  And for the record I do not support laws that encourage personal irresponsibility or discourage personable responsibility.  I do not understand the logic of those that think otherwise and realize that at some point - they must be eliminated for any society if that society is to remain free.  I will make one last point - I believe it was the argument of Lucifer (Satan) to shift responsibility from individuals to those that have taken control of the society.

 

The Traveler

[unixknight]

On 11/21/2018 at 8:48 PM, Tyme said:

Do you support abortion?

Are you in favor of contraception?

Do you think a child and family should be supported via government programs or other programs?

Not unless mom's life is in danger.

Yes.

Only temporarily, when in times of financial emergency.

On 11/22/2018 at 1:25 PM, Tyme said:

What’s the difference between a tax break and welfare? 

The former is less Government control over our money, the latter is more Government control.

[anatess2]

I was Catholic before I got baptized Mormon.

Instead of simply answering your questions, I'm going to explain the doctrine behind the questions.

 

On 11/21/2018 at 3:48 PM, Tyme said:

Do you support abortion?

In Catholic doctrine, personhood begins at conception.  Before conception there is nothing (ex nihilo).

In LDS doctrine, the spirit is eternal.  It exists in pre-mortality.  The eternal spirit then joins the mortal body somewhere between conception and birth.  Before the spirit joins the body, the body is not a person.

Therefore, growing up Catholic, I did not believe there is ANY difference between aborting a fetus and killing a person.  So, the question could be stated as "Do you support killing?".  US laws and the Christian Churches are pretty much in agreement with the answer to this question... Murder is punishable by law but not all killing is murder.  Killing a person because the person's mother got raped by his father is murder.  Killing a person because his father is his mother's brother is also murder.  Killing a person because he is putting his mother's life in danger can be murder unless the death of the person was an undesired consequence of saving the mother's life.

In LDS doctrine, things are different.  A fetus may not yet be a person.  It becomes a person when the eternal spirit chooses to join the body.  That event happens anytime between conception and birth but we do not know exactly when that is.  The person who has the authority to determine such things is the Bishop.  Therefore, any person contemplating abortion needs to talk to their Bishop.

 

On 11/21/2018 at 3:48 PM, Tyme said:

Are you in favor of contraception?

In Catholic doctrine, purposefully rendering procreation impossible in the act of sexual intercourse is a sin.

There's no such thing in LDS doctrine.

 

On 11/21/2018 at 3:48 PM, Tyme said:

Do you think a child and family should be supported via government programs or other programs?

I believe in small government.  I don't want to give government the authority to decide who should be supported and who shouldn't because it becomes a mechanism to buy votes.  To me, there's no difference between an American politician promising his constituents child/family support if he gets elected than a Filipino politician stapling money to a pre-filled ballot.

I do believe that family should support each other.  Therefore, a country becomes stronger as their family structure strengthens to where its nuclear family unit becomes larger than just parents and offspring.  The standard Filipino family is composed of 3 generations where family support extends beyond parents and offspring to include grandparents and cousins.  My family is ginormous extending 6 generations and we've become international.  I have cousins all around the globe we can call on to help in dire situations.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rominah]

My question is :" are we allowed to practice contraception?"

[NeuroTypical]

 Hi and welcome Rominah.

Please read the thread - the question is answered all over the place.

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, Rominah said:

My question is :" are we allowed to practice contraception?"

That's a weird question.

Are you an independent adult?  An American?  Or anywhere without a dictatorial government?  Then, you're in a free country.  You don't need anybody to "allow" you to do anything you want that is legal.

Now, the question is... is it moral?  Depends on what Church you ask.  Catholics - no to artificial birth control.  Protestants, Jews, Muslims - depends.  LDS, yes.

Edited November 29, 2018 by anatess2

[Rominah]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

That's a weird question.

Are you American?  Or anywhere without a dictatorial government?  Then, you're in a free country.  You don't need anybody to "allow" you to do anything you want that is legal.

Now, the question is... is it moral?  Depends on what Church you ask.  Catholics, no.  Protestants, depends.  LDS, yes.

I am Malagasy. I am LDS. I've just had my first baby and I want to wait for at least 2 years to have one. So, I was wondering if I can do it or not. I am afraid that the Church is against contraception. When I asked the members here in my country, they don't answer clearly that's why I asked.

[NeuroTypical]

On 11/22/2018 at 7:39 AM, NeuroTypical said:

Quote

Are you in favor of contraception?

Handbook 2, section 21.4.4

Quote

Birth Control
It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear. The decision as to how many children to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.

Married couples should also understand that sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a way of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.

Rominah, this stuff is the answer from the LDS perspective, no matter where you live.  We're big on following the law, so whatever the local laws are in your area should be followed.  So if the laws allow contraception, the church has no problem with it, and in fact husband and wife that it's up to them to counsel with the Lord as to timing.

Edited November 29, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[anatess2]

13 minutes ago, Rominah said:

I am Malagasy. I am LDS. I've just had my first baby and I want to wait for at least 2 years to have one. So, I was wondering if I can do it or not. I am afraid that the Church is against contraception. When I asked the members here in my country, they don't answer clearly that's why I asked.

I'm not familiar with the laws of the land in Madagascar regarding contraception.  If its legal to use in your country, you may use it.  The Church leaves the decision of how many children a couple should have solely on the married couple's united decision through prayer.   The decision on methods of contraception is also left to the couple to decide on with prayer.

Edited November 29, 2018 by anatess2