Word Chasing

Questions About President Nelson

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2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Bah. Lawyers.

I'll say it!

I know President Nelson is a prophet.

(That laugh I gave you was a friendly, self-deprecating chuckle; not mockery.)

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5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

(That laugh I gave you was a friendly, self-deprecating chuckle; not mockery.)

I wouldn't have taken it as mockery. But thanks for the clarity just in case. ;)

Just so we're clear, the "Bah. Lawyers." was, indeed, mockery. :devil:

 

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

...

I wonder whether the effectiveness of a spiritual testimony lies less in what we think we “know” about a hyper-specific topic, and more about our ability to honestly and articulately leverage whatever we have experienced into a series of logical conclusions on which we feel comfortable staking the rest of our major life-choices.  You gather the evidence, make some educated guesses, draw a conclusion, make sure you can sleep at night—and then you go to trial with the evidence you have, not necessarily the evidence you wish you had; and through the whole process you try to maintain a sense of humility about what you may not know while still seeing through your adversary’s attempts to blow smoke and get you off-track. 

There is a balance here that I try to maintain.  While this is good for a great many things and will work for earthly knowledge about earthly things, can we really "reason out" the things of God?  That's what caused the apostasy, right?

There are certain fundamental things that only the Spirit can teach you and witness (testify) to you.  Of course, the Lord gave us a brain to think and ponder and wonder, etc.  But whatever we come up with, we're supposed to bring anything back to the Lord for confirmation.  It is too easy for the mortal mind to go off track into unknown paths to not continually check in for Spiritual confirmation.

9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Perhaps the ultimate proof in the pudding is what we do with our testimonies, and it strikes me that there are few better witnesses than a life well-lived. 

Agreed.

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But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

Edited by Grunt

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9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

There is a balance here that I try to maintain.  While this is good for a great many things and will work for earthly knowledge about earthly things, can we really "reason out" the things of God?  That's what caused the apostasy, right?

There are certain fundamental things that only the Spirit can teach you and witness (testify) to you.  Of course, the Lord gave us a brain to think and ponder and wonder, etc.  But whatever we come up with, we're supposed to bring anything back to the Lord for confirmation.  It is too easy for the mortal mind to go off track into unknown paths to not continually check in for Spiritual confirmation.

Agreed.

I think where we get into trouble, apostasy-wise, is when we quit bothering to even ask for the direct confirmation; or when we try to muzzle the Lord when He tells us something that doesn’t fit in our paradigm.   Certainly we need to be wary of man-made logic; and yes, there are certain axioms or postulates that can only be spiritually confirmed.  On the other hand, I think intellectual reasoning is also a divine gift that, when kept within certain bounds, can keep us anxiously engaged in the path of faith even when we don’t have as much direct revelation as we wish we did. 

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19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

There is a balance here that I try to maintain.  While this is good for a great many things and will work for earthly knowledge about earthly things, can we really "reason out" the things of God?  That's what caused the apostasy, right?

There are certain fundamental things that only the Spirit can teach you and witness (testify) to you.  Of course, the Lord gave us a brain to think and ponder and wonder, etc.  But whatever we come up with, we're supposed to bring anything back to the Lord for confirmation.  It is too easy for the mortal mind to go off track into unknown paths to not continually check in for Spiritual confirmation.

Agreed.

I think where we get into trouble, apostasy-wise, is when we quit bothering to even ask for the direct confirmation; or when we try to muzzle the Lord when He tells us something that doesn’t fit in our paradigm.   Certainly we need to be wary of man-made logic; and yes, there are certain axioms or postulates that can only be spiritually confirmed.  On the other hand, I think intellectual reasoning is also a divine gift that, when kept within certain bounds, can keep us anxiously engaged in the path of faith even when we don’t have as much direct revelation as we wish we did. 

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2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 or when we try to muzzle the Lord when He tells us something that doesn’t fit in our paradigm.

Yes.  That's the perfect word.  We tend to think we know so much that we tell the Lord when He's wrong.

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On 12/3/2018 at 9:52 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

... I do not agree. ...

It's entirely possible that I wasn't terribly clear.  I wasn't speaking of how to gaining testimony, rather of the need to continually gain / feed a testimony (see Alma 32).  I agree with you on the how.

It seems the person I mentioned had planted the seed, nourished it some, but had neglected a portion - he had an Achilles heel, so to speak, and Satan went right for it.  It's pretty common for people to say they have a testimony of A and are accepting B on trust until they gain their own testimony.  I'm just saying don't leave B to trust for too long - actually work on building a testimony of it.  Sooner or later, Satan will try you on your weak points, so don't leave them weak.

On 12/3/2018 at 9:52 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

An unshakable testimony is a choice.

I agree with you on this too, but I don't know that everyone has consciously made that choice - to be unshakable - and without the constant feeding and conscious choice, Satan has "ins" to use.  Aha!  I'm advocating identifying your "ins" and eliminating them.

Edited by zil

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I think testimony about Nelson starts (and ends, in a way) with the Book of Mormon. If you believe in it's truth, than you believe that Smith Jr was a prophet of some kind. Since Nelson is his successor, he's a prophet as well.  

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32 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I think testimony about Nelson starts (and ends, in a way) with the Book of Mormon. If you believe in it's truth, than you believe that Smith Jr was a prophet of some kind. Since Nelson is his successor, he's a prophet as well.  

Unless Dr. Strang is the successor.

Wait...I'm confusing my Strang and my Strange....

Anyhow...point being...I think we need a testimony of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as well. Otherwise there are several other claims to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and organizational sources.

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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think where we get into trouble, apostasy-wise, is when we quit bothering to even ask for the direct confirmation; or when we try to muzzle the Lord when He tells us something that doesn’t fit in our paradigm.   Certainly we need to be wary of man-made logic; and yes, there are certain axioms or postulates that can only be spiritually confirmed.  On the other hand, I think intellectual reasoning is also a divine gift that, when kept within certain bounds, can keep us anxiously engaged in the path of faith even when we don’t have as much direct revelation as we wish we did. 

You mean to say:

"...seek learning even by study and also by faith;"

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On 12/3/2018 at 3:10 PM, Fether said:

I am a member of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not the The Church of *insert current prophet name* of Latter-day Saints.

I don’t follow Russell M Nelson, I follow the Prophet of God no matter who it is.

I learned the church was true ages ago, I don’t know that I need conformation for every change in leadership. 

I can appreciate the path of logic you took to get there.  But to me, that is too similar to the way the sectarians are. 

  • I believe in the Bible.
  • The Bible says not to add to it.
  • The Book of Mormon adds to it.
  • So, I know they are a cult.

Sounds plausible.  Did you pray about each line of that paralogism?  The Spirit confirmed that to you, did he?

Yes, we say that if the Book of Mormon is true... And, yes, there is truth to that.  But it cannot be the complete basis of a testimony.  It's the start -- and a good start.  But it must go further and deeper.

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29 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I can appreciate the path of logic you took to get there.  But to me, that is too similar to the way the sectarians are. 

  • I believe in the Bible.
  • The Bible says not to add to it.
  • The Book of Mormon adds to it.
  • So, I know they are a cult.

Sounds plausible.  Did you pray about each line of that paralogism?  The Spirit confirmed that to you, did he?

Yes, we say that if the Book of Mormon is true... And, yes, there is truth to that.  But it cannot be the complete basis of a testimony.  It's the start -- and a good start.  But it must go further and deeper.

Just so at understand,you are saying a testimony of the Book of Mormon does not domino effect into the church being true and the prophet being a true prophet of God.

Do we need to seek spiritual confirmation for every single thing that the church does? At what point do we accept that church is Gods church in its fullest and not need spiritual confirmation for every matter? Surely there has to be some domino effect somewhere 

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1 minute ago, Fether said:

Just so at understand,you are saying a testimony of the Book of Mormon does not domino effect into the church being true and the prophet being a true prophet of God.

No, I specifically said

34 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 And, yes, there is truth to that.

But I'll use another tripod analogy.  That's only one leg.  To have a STRONG testimony, you need more legs.

1 minute ago, Fether said:

Do we need to seek spiritual confirmation for every single thing that the church does?

Much of what the Church does is administrative.  The things that lean more towards "policy" are more subject to an "umbrella" effect of testimony.  But the more things go towards "doctrinal" and "commandments"...

Learn to discern the difference between foundational, structural, and peripheral.

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8 minutes ago, Fether said:

Just so at understand,you are saying a testimony of the Book of Mormon does not domino effect into the church being true and the prophet being a true prophet of God.

Technically, it does.  But what if it didn't?  Knowing by the Spirit that it does is a more powerful thing than assuming or logic-ing that it does.  And I think that is the point.  There have been enough stories recounted that we should all understand that sooner or later we will each face a trial of faith that we could never have imagined before it hit.  We may have thought we were prepared for it - until it hits, at which point, we may find we're not so prepared after all.  The point of seeking a personal witness is to gain that extra power that comes from knowing by the Spirit (as opposed to assuming or reasoning).

Think of it as the difference between building your house on a rock (literally, on top of it) vs. securing your house to the rock by driving screws down deep into the rock.

Edited by zil

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Just now, Vort said:

"Logicking"? What are the rules for gerunding nouns?

From google, I infer that logic as a verb (and therefore logicking) will be in the dictionary afore long.  In the meantime, the rules are:

  • Have fun
  • It should seem reasonably plausible (i.e. appear to follow existing rules / patterns)
  • (alternately, it should be obviously absurd, to the point where any intelligent person would be amused at your joke)
  • Make it so good that they put your name in the "etymology" section of the definition ;)

(I considered adding the "k", but it looks so ugly when they do it to "public" that I went for the hyphen instead.)

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Just now, zil said:

reasonably plausible

It's entirely possible that's redundant.

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On 11/23/2018 at 8:15 PM, Word Chasing said:

How do you know he is a true prophet?  

I have not had it confirmed to me...

I received a spiritual confirmation that the BoM is what it claims to be, and the CoJCoLDS is what it claims to be as well.  I got that confirmation back in the mid-90's.  So, based on that 20+ yr old confirmation, President Nelson is a prophet.   That's how I know.

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29 minutes ago, zil said:

it looks so ugly when they do it to "public"

Funny. I feel exactly the same way. There's just something intrinsic to the human soul that rebels against the hardening use of 'k' in this instance.

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6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, technically, it should be "logic - ify"

No, that would be turning something into logic (e.g. taking a flawed argument and adjusting it until it's logical), not using logic to figure something out (aka deduction, reasoning).

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