Did a mysterious extinction event precede Adam and Eve?


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5 hours ago, Traveler said:

I want to clarify something about science and religion (in particular a knowledge of G-d).  Science is a structured method of learning based in a particular set of rules.  In essence science only considers what can be empirically validated through the basic 5 senses of observation.  Though logic is employed in science - the conclusions must be empirically validated by observation.

This is in part why I place very little trust in the "theories" of science; however, I have never heard that it "must" be by validated observation.

1) Abiogenesis has never been observed, has never been empirically observed, and according to our current knowledge can't be tested. Yet, this is a realm of science.

2) Macro evolution has "never" been empirically observed yet I have heard you call it a "fact" along with others. If the conclusions of science must be empirically observed how then can anyone call this a fact.

I could go on other scientific theories -- the big bang -- that have never been empirically observed (which has conclusions). What am I misunderstanding from your statement?

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15 hours ago, Anddenex said:

This is in part why I place very little trust in the "theories" of science; however, I have never heard that it "must" be by validated observation.

1) Abiogenesis has never been observed, has never been empirically observed, and according to our current knowledge can't be tested. Yet, this is a realm of science.

2) Macro evolution has "never" been empirically observed yet I have heard you call it a "fact" along with others. If the conclusions of science must be empirically observed how then can anyone call this a fact.

I could go on other scientific theories -- the big bang -- that have never been empirically observed (which has conclusions). What am I misunderstanding from your statement?

You are correct that the best logical version to explain observable events is considered science but I do hold to the notion that such science is not concluded until the event categorically defined is empirically observed.   I do not recall saying the macro evolution is an observable fact - yet.  But I am sure that I have said that for all the observable data we have accumulated - that macro evolution is the best possible explanation we have.  The same applies to electrons.  We do not know electrons exist but so far there is no better conclusion the what we are able to observe.  In fact, there is such a preponderance of evidence that faith in the concept of electrons perhaps exceeds knowledge.  Let me explain.

When some goes to turn on a light - the activate the switch that is believed to activate electrons to create light from the light bulb.  But if there is no light - no one stops believing in electrons - rather they believe the light bulb to have failed. So they replace the light bulb.  If there is still no light - no one stops believing in electrons.  Instead the think the check the circuit breaker, or the light switch and so on and so on.  They may finely believe that the power that provides the electrons have failed, but no one ever stops believing in electrons - which means that they have concluded that electrons exist.

The idea of faith sometimes transcends knowledge never-the-less to conclude a scientific principle there must be empirical evidence.  As a side note - I personally have difficulty when someone speaks of "knowledge" of spiritual things that cannot be empirically observed  but in truth this is a very different discussion.

 

The Traveler

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On 11/24/2018 at 11:48 AM, Jane_Doe said:

(Ok, professional scientist in evolution/ecology and highly devoted LDS Christian speaking here)

Properly understood, there is no conflict between religion and science.  They are simply two different epistemological techniques to get at two different aspect of life.  For example, science can't comment on the question "is there a god" because such a question is outside of the scientific method.  Faith/religion/spiritually can and does address that question.  And there are many other questions that science handles very well and enhance our lives that way (like modern medicine).  There's no "versus" here, only two different sphere enhancing our knowledge in a more well-rounded way.  

I wish my son looked at it that way. He is currently a returned missionary, BYU grad, agnostic medical student who is fully on board with evolution  only and refers to anything spiritual as "supernatural" -sending it into the realm of fiction.  Sigh! At this point I think it's going to take an event or situation where he hits rock bottom and can't depend on science and has to depend on God to make it through. Or a really cute girl with a testimony who can convince him. But at this point he isn't interacting with any LDS girls at all. And he's been pretty darn successful in academia so far and works really hard to be successful. So...science reigns supreme for him.

Edited by carlimac
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1 hour ago, carlimac said:

I wish my son looked at it that way. He is currently a returned missionary, BYU grad, agnostic medical student who is fully on board with evolution  only and refers to anything spiritual as "supernatural" -sending it into the realm of fiction.  Sigh! At this point I think it's going to take an event or situation where he hits rock bottom and can't depend on science and has to depend on God to make it through. Or a really cute girl with a testimony who can convince him. But at this point he isn't interacting with any LDS girls at all. And he's been pretty darn successful in academia so far and works really hard to be successful. So...science reigns supreme for him.

Sorry to here about your struggle with your son.  Children can be... difficult, to put it lightly.  Even the Father had a third leave His ways.

If your son was interested, I could talk to him (bytheway- I also believe in evolution AND creation), but it sounds like he'll need to find his own way.  In that case, if you ever need anything, please feel free to contact me anytime.  

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