Received Up Into the Cloud, The Church of the Firstborn

[Rob Osborn]

As I read the scriptures I have come across this passage or varriences of it. My question and thoughts are on several points. When do you think this occurs? At Christ's coming or after the millennium? A relevant scripture-

21 For ye are the church of the Firstborn, and he will take you up in a cloud, and appoint every man his portion. (D&C 78:21)

It appears that all those who are caught up are members of the Church of the Firstborn. As far as I understand, the Church of the Firstborn is Christ's eternal church that will spread forth into eternity. It's main designation it appears is having ones name written in heaven and is indeed Christ's heavenly Church. What do you think? Relevant passages-

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
            5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son. (D&C 88:4-5)

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
            54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
            55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things. (D&C 76:53-55)

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant. (D&C 107:19)

I suppose that the gathering of Israel, which has started, will continue throughout the millennium and it's purpose is to bring as many as will into the Church of the Firstborn. A relevant passage-

 

11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 77:11)

In this light, as I understand, the part about being "received into the cloud" happens after the millennium. Is this correct? And, all those received in the cloud are members of the Church of the Firstborn which are those of Celestial glory?

 

 

[CV75]

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

As I read the scriptures I have come across this passage or varriences of it. My question and thoughts are on several points. When do you think this occurs? At Christ's coming or after the millennium? A relevant scripture-

21 For ye are the church of the Firstborn, and he will take you up in a cloud, and appoint every man his portion. (D&C 78:21)

It appears that all those who are caught up are members of the Church of the Firstborn. As far as I understand, the Church of the Firstborn is Christ's eternal church that will spread forth into eternity. It's main designation it appears is having ones name written in heaven and is indeed Christ's heavenly Church. What do you think? Relevant passages-

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
            5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son. (D&C 88:4-5)

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
            54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
            55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things. (D&C 76:53-55)

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant. (D&C 107:19)

I suppose that the gathering of Israel, which has started, will continue throughout the millennium and it's purpose is to bring as many as will into the Church of the Firstborn. A relevant passage-

 

11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 77:11)

In this light, as I understand, the part about being "received into the cloud" happens after the millennium. Is this correct? And, all those received in the cloud are members of the Church of the Firstborn which are those of Celestial glory?

Do these articles address your questions?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/church-of-the-firstborn?lang=eng

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Church_of_the_Firstborn

I think our reception into the Church of the Firstborn is actualized upon the Final Judgement (which for the most part is after the Millennium, but there are exceptions), but the Holy Spirit of Promise can tell us to expect this promise to be fulfilled while we are yet in the flesh. I think it is a "church" in a different sense that what we have now; it is more a patriarchal order or divine council of sealed saints. All are in celestial glory, but at some point I think exaltation is what is really meant by being a joint-heir with Christ and inclusion in the Church of the Firstborn. Inasmuch as the lesser kingdoms are under the stewardship of the Church of the Firstborn, they might be construed as subsets or in the "hands" of that Church as well, which is why there is mention of such terms as "appoint," "sealed," "ordained," "commune," "communion," etc.

 

[Rob Osborn]

22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Do these articles address your questions?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/church-of-the-firstborn?lang=eng

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Church_of_the_Firstborn

I think our reception into the Church of the Firstborn is actualized upon the Final Judgement (which for the most part is after the Millennium, but there are exceptions), but the Holy Spirit of Promise can tell us to expect this promise to be fulfilled while we are yet in the flesh. I think it is a "church" in a different sense that what we have now; it is more a patriarchal order or divine council of sealed saints. All are in celestial glory, but at some point I think exaltation is what is really meant by being a joint-heir with Christ and inclusion in the Church of the Firstborn. Inasmuch as the lesser kingdoms are under the stewardship of the Church of the Firstborn, they might be construed as subsets or in the "hands" of that Church as well, which is why there is mention of such terms as "appoint," "sealed," "ordained," "commune," "communion," etc.

 

Suppose for a minute, something to think over- If the Church of the Firstborn is Christ's heavenly Church, there isn't going to be any other church to belong to in heaven, right? Does this reality not hearken back to this passage-

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. (1 Nephi 14:10)

So, if we do not end up belonging to the Church of the Firstborn, will we belong to the Church of the devil?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Suppose for a minute, something to think over- If the Church of the Firstborn is Christ's heavenly Church, there isn't going to be any other church to belong to in heaven, right? Does this reality not hearken back to this passage-

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. (1 Nephi 14:10)

So, if we do not end up belonging to the Church of the Firstborn, will we belong to the Church of the devil?

1 Nephi 14 continues Nephi’s vision covering several chapters of what happens in this world (he is referred to the writings of John for what happens at the end of the world), and is not about the church of the Firstborn, which John never mentioned anyway.

The church of the devil, the whore of all the earth, sits upon many waters and has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. The church of the Lamb of God, whose numbers are few because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore, is also upon all the face of the earth, but her dominions upon the face of the earth are small. According to the D&C references, the faithful saints will be brought into the church of the Firstborn after the millennium, the completion of work in the spirit world, the resurrection and the final judgment.

The bridge between the church of the Lamb of God on earth and the church of the Firstborn in heaven is the sealing power.

D&C 76 expands upon John 5:29 and takes place beyond this earth and after the enmity of the church of the devil against the church of the Lamb of God is settled. This is why this vision of what takes place after this world shows that the glory of “they who are of the terrestrial …differs from that of the church of the Firstborn.”

There is no dichotomy between the Church of the Firstborn and the church of the devil, because the latter will no longer exist. There is no final state of membership in the church of the devil, for there will be none. There will be kingdoms of glory overseen by the Church of the Firstborn. There will also be perdition where the devil has sought to lead some into, but he no longer has power over anyone; it seems that other sons of perdition (at least Cain) will have power over him. The devil only has power over people in this life (which includes the spirit world). That is why the "final state of the wicked" refers to their condition upon death in this life and not necessarily upon their resurrection (due to the space of time between death and resurrection and what can be accomplished to save them between the two).

For this reason, your question about belong to one of the other in the end needs to be reconsidered and rephrased.

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

1 Nephi 14 continues Nephi’s vision covering several chapters of what happens in this world (he is referred to the writings of John for what happens at the end of the world), and is not about the church of the Firstborn, which John never mentioned anyway.

The church of the devil, the whore of all the earth, sits upon many waters and has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. The church of the Lamb of God, whose numbers are few because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore, is also upon all the face of the earth, but her dominions upon the face of the earth are small. According to the D&C references, the faithful saints will be brought into the church of the Firstborn after the millennium, the completion of work in the spirit world, the resurrection and the final judgment.

The bridge between the church of the Lamb of God on earth and the church of the Firstborn in heaven is the sealing power.

D&C 76 expands upon John 5:29 and takes place beyond this earth and after the enmity of the church of the devil against the church of the Lamb of God is settled. This is why this vision of what takes place after this world shows that the glory of “they who are of the terrestrial …differs from that of the church of the Firstborn.”

There is no dichotomy between the Church of the Firstborn and the church of the devil, because the latter will no longer exist. There is no final state of membership in the church of the devil, for there will be none. There will be kingdoms of glory overseen by the Church of the Firstborn. There will also be perdition where the devil has sought to lead some into, but he no longer has power over anyone; it seems that other sons of perdition (at least Cain) will have power over him. The devil only has power over people in this life (which includes the spirit world). That is why the "final state of the wicked" refers to their condition upon death in this life and not necessarily upon their resurrection (due to the space of time between death and resurrection and what can be accomplished to save them between the two).

For this reason, your question about belong to one of the other in the end needs to be reconsidered and rephrased.

Okay, so, is it better to say that only those who belong to the Church of the Firstborn are brought up into the cloud and thus spared from being cast (burned) in the lake of fire and brimstone at the end of the millennium? In other words, the gathering of the saints (wheat) into the Garner's while the tares remain to be burned?

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

It is possible to get so bent out of shape about our potential Celestial reward that we miss the point that we are to Love the Lord our God with all our heart and love our neighbors as ourselves. It reminds me of this incident in the life of Christ.

"Luke 22

24 ¶ And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Okay, so, is it better to say that only those who belong to the Church of the Firstborn are brought up into the cloud and thus spared from being cast (burned) in the lake of fire and brimstone at the end of the millennium? In other words, the gathering of the saints (wheat) into the Garner's while the tares remain to be burned?

What do you think is best to say? I'm not following I guess, since you didn’t mention a lake of fire and brimstone, garners, wheat or tares in your OP about the church of the Firstborn.

Do you have a comment specific to my original response to you? Posted 2 hours ago

I think I made the mistake of letting you not do that!

[Rob Osborn]

26 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What do you think is best to say? I'm not following I guess, since you didn’t mention a lake of fire and brimstone, garners, wheat or tares in your OP about the church of the Firstborn.

Do you have a comment specific to my original response to you? Posted 2 hours ago

I think I made the mistake of letting you not do that!

I guess maybe my thoughts are getting ahead of myself. As I understand things, the whole point about being brought up into the cloud is a separation of the righteous from the wicked. We know that at the end of the millennium there will be the work of separation in it's completion. The sealed 144,000 are sent forth during the millennium to bring as many as will into the Church of the Firstborn. As I understand, the name of Christ's church will change from what it is now called on earth to the Church of the Firstborn when Christ returns (as technically, we won't be latter day saints at that new millennial day dawn). So, in the end, if all saving ordinances are for membership into Christ's heavenly Church, only those caught up into the cloud and received into the Church of the Firstborn will be spared. Is this understanding correct? I'm just not seeing where being outside of the heavenly Church has power over the adversary.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I guess maybe my thoughts are getting ahead of myself. As I understand things, the whole point about being brought up into the cloud is a separation of the righteous from the wicked. We know that at the end of the millennium there will be the work of separation in it's completion. The sealed 144,000 are sent forth during the millennium to bring as many as will into the Church of the Firstborn. As I understand, the name of Christ's church will change from what it is now called on earth to the Church of the Firstborn when Christ returns (as technically, we won't be latter day saints at that new millennial day dawn). So, in the end, if all saving ordinances are for membership into Christ's heavenly Church, only those caught up into the cloud and received into the Church of the Firstborn will be spared. Is this understanding correct? I'm just not seeing where being outside of the heavenly Church has power over the adversary.

Only Christ has power over the adversary, for sure. In this life He protects us from him, and in the next life He will destroy him.

Even with the devil’s destruction, we still abide by the choices we made, whether under or in rejection of his influence. Only we have power over our agency, and we choose what to do with Christ’s infinite and eternal victory over sin and death (D&C 88:32). This is where the degrees of glory, and the meaning of D&C 76:71, come in. No soul with a degree of glory is subject to the adversary (because he is destroyed), but each soul is subject to the ministrations of his higher relative glory, up to and including God’s fulness (verses 76-88). God’s fulness is in the church of the Firstborn.

D&C 76:71 shows that after the final judgement, there is power (glory) outside of the church of the Firstborn, just not as much as within the church of the Firstborn. Power over the adversary is already accomplished and granted through Christ by the gift of immortality, the binding of Satan, and the destruction of the world (including the church of the devil). We don’t need, and are not given, power over someone or something that no longer exists. We do need, and are given, the highest degree of glory which we are willing to receive according to our choices, whether that be in the church of the Firstborn or not.

All things are subject to the church of the Firstborn, even if by ministration (delegation). The cloud is the frontier just beyond the veil, where eternal lives and exaltation begin, not a mist that descends upon, envelops and transports us into heaven. We are received through the veil into the cloud (D&C 76:102), and taken from the veil and up in the cloud (God’s mansion) and appointed a portion (78:21).

[Rob Osborn]

16 hours ago, CV75 said:

Only Christ has power over the adversary, for sure. In this life He protects us from him, and in the next life He will destroy him.

Even with the devil’s destruction, we still abide by the choices we made, whether under or in rejection of his influence. Only we have power over our agency, and we choose what to do with Christ’s infinite and eternal victory over sin and death (D&C 88:32). This is where the degrees of glory, and the meaning of D&C 76:71, come in. No soul with a degree of glory is subject to the adversary (because he is destroyed), but each soul is subject to the ministrations of his higher relative glory, up to and including God’s fulness (verses 76-88). God’s fulness is in the church of the Firstborn.

D&C 76:71 shows that after the final judgement, there is power (glory) outside of the church of the Firstborn, just not as much as within the church of the Firstborn. Power over the adversary is already accomplished and granted through Christ by the gift of immortality, the binding of Satan, and the destruction of the world (including the church of the devil). We don’t need, and are not given, power over someone or something that no longer exists. We do need, and are given, the highest degree of glory which we are willing to receive according to our choices, whether that be in the church of the Firstborn or not.

All things are subject to the church of the Firstborn, even if by ministration (delegation). The cloud is the frontier just beyond the veil, where eternal lives and exaltation begin, not a mist that descends upon, envelops and transports us into heaven. We are received through the veil into the cloud (D&C 76:102), and taken from the veil and up in the cloud (God’s mansion) and appointed a portion (78:21).

I guess I just am not understanding why or how being outside of membership in Christ's heavenly Church has power to save. The scriptures speak of needing to be begotten (born again) through Christ to receive salvation. Relevant scripture passage-

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
            26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
            27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off. (Mosiah 27:25-27)

All those who are born again in God become members of the Church of the Firstborn-

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 93:22)

So, if I am understanding this correctly, one must become a member of the Church of the Firstborn or be cast off at the great and last day. Is this not the correct reading of these scriptures?

 

[CV75]

32 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I guess I just am not understanding why or how being outside of membership in Christ's heavenly Church has power to save. The scriptures speak of needing to be begotten (born again) through Christ to receive salvation. Relevant scripture passage-

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
            26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
            27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off. (Mosiah 27:25-27)

All those who are born again in God become members of the Church of the Firstborn-

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 93:22)

So, if I am understanding this correctly, one must become a member of the Church of the Firstborn or be cast off at the great and last day. Is this not the correct reading of these scriptures?

 

No, it is not correct. Membership [in the church of the Firstborn] does not prevent us from being cast off; Christ does. I think your phraseology sets up a red flag because it is mechanistic. The spiritual rebirth determines one's membership, and refusing that determines one's being cast out. Lack of membership does not determine being cast out, lacking the attributes described in the two scriptures you listed does.

How does D&C 76:71 not answer your questions? Membership enables us to live with Christ and the Father in the kingdom of God and minister to those inhabiting lesser kingdoms of glory, who are "cast off" in terms of membership (life in the presence of God) but not in terms of resurrection and immortality.

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

No, it is not correct. Membership [in the church of the Firstborn] does not prevent us from being cast off; Christ does. I think your phraseology sets up a red flag because it is mechanistic. The spiritual rebirth determines one's membership, and refusing that determines one's being cast out. Lack of membership does not determine being cast out, lacking the attributes described in the two scriptures you listed does.

How does D&C 76:71 not answer your questions? Membership enables us to live with Christ and the Father in the kingdom of God and minister to those inhabiting lesser kingdoms of glory, who are "cast off" in terms of membership (life in the presence of God) but not in terms of resurrection and immortality.

Verse 71 doesnt answer my question in light of verse 102. Thats my conundrum. In verse 102 it states that this particular group is the only group not caught up into the cloud into the Church of the Firstborn. Verse 102 reads-

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

If I am reading it correct, it says this is the only group not part of the Church of the Firstborn. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Verse 71 doesnt answer my question in light of verse 102. Thats my conundrum. In verse 102 it states that this particular group is the only group not caught up into the cloud into the Church of the Firstborn. Verse 102 reads-

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

If I am reading it correct, it says this is the only group not part of the Church of the Firstborn. 

Verses 98-106 describes the telestial souls. Just because it mentions that they “will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud,” does not mean they are the only ones, as verse 71 describes the terrestrial souls in a similar vein.

Nothing specific is said in this section about the sons of perdition with regard to the cloud, either. But later in D&C 88 their kingdom is described as one without glory, in a similar same way as the kingdom of the terrestrial souls is described as not having part with the church of the Firstborn. Only the church of the Firstborn are those who have been received into the cloud.

Scripture is not a mechanic’s manual. If you are reading it as such, you are not reading it correctly.

So verse 71 should answer your question, because verse 102 answers it too. Neither verse says they are the only group not caught up into the cloud, but both say they are not in the church of the Firstborn, which is in and beyond the cloud.

[Rob Osborn]

7 hours ago, CV75 said:

Verses 98-106 describes the telestial souls. Just because it mentions that they “will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud,” does not mean they are the only ones, as verse 71 describes the terrestrial souls in a similar vein.

Nothing specific is said in this section about the sons of perdition with regard to the cloud, either. But later in D&C 88 their kingdom is described as one without glory, in a similar same way as the kingdom of the terrestrial souls is described as not having part with the church of the Firstborn. Only the church of the Firstborn are those who have been received into the cloud.

Scripture is not a mechanic’s manual. If you are reading it as such, you are not reading it correctly.

So verse 71 should answer your question, because verse 102 answers it too. Neither verse says they are the only group not caught up into the cloud, but both say they are not in the church of the Firstborn, which is in and beyond the cloud.

Hum...I guess I have a hard time trying to understand then why in verse 102 it singles them out as all of the ones not gathered into the cloud if there is some other group also. The wording seems rather specific that they are the only ones not brought into the cloud.

[CV75]

8 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...I guess I have a hard time trying to understand then why in verse 102 it singles them out as all of the ones not gathered into the cloud if there is some other group also. The wording seems rather specific that they are the only ones not brought into the cloud.

Verses 102 is specific to them, and describes them, and in this way “singles them out.” Verse 71 likewise could be said to have specific wording for to “single out” the terrestrial kingdom as “the only one” whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn. At the same time, we see that the two glories share the same distinction, rendering it not a distinction unique to either the telestial or terrestrial glory.

If you compare the separate descriptions of the telestial, terrestrial and celestial souls, you will see how there is both similarity and uniqueness between them. For example, the souls of all three all kingdoms are resurrected, they all have some glory, they differ from one another in glory. The telestial and terrestrial are resurrected, have some glory, and differ from each other, but are not part of the church of the Firstborn or received into the cloud (the two go together) as the celestial are. These are “singled out” as the only ones belonging in the church of the Firstborn.

The church of the Firstborn is the church in heaven. This section is not written in mechanical or technical terms, so while the Lord comes in the clouds of heaven, and takes us up in a cloud, the preparatory appointment (or the promise of appointment, or sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise) in the church of the Firstborn can be anticipated and validated on earth (i.e. D&C 78:21) before it is realized in heaven (i.e. 76:102).

Try reading 102 as not "singling them out as all of the ones not gathered into the cloud" since verse 72 previously describes the terrestrial souls in the same way, and the description while specific to the telestial kingdom of glory is not exclusive to that kingdom of glory. Specificity in description is not exclusivity in attribute when the same element of description is used for the terrestrial also.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Verses 102 is specific to them, and describes them, and in this way “singles them out.” Verse 71 likewise could be said to have specific wording for to “single out” the terrestrial kingdom as “the only one” whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn. At the same time, we see that the two glories share the same distinction, rendering it not a distinction unique to either the telestial or terrestrial glory.

If you compare the separate descriptions of the telestial, terrestrial and celestial souls, you will see how there is both similarity and uniqueness between them. For example, the souls of all three all kingdoms are resurrected, they all have some glory, they differ from one another in glory. The telestial and terrestrial are resurrected, have some glory, and differ from each other, but are not part of the church of the Firstborn or received into the cloud (the two go together) as the celestial are. These are “singled out” as the only ones belonging in the church of the Firstborn.

The church of the Firstborn is the church in heaven. This section is not written in mechanical or technical terms, so while the Lord comes in the clouds of heaven, and takes us up in a cloud, the preparatory appointment (or the promise of appointment, or sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise) in the church of the Firstborn can be anticipated and validated on earth (i.e. D&C 78:21) before it is realized in heaven (i.e. 76:102).

Try reading 102 as not "singling them out as all of the ones not gathered into the cloud" since verse 72 previously describes the terrestrial souls in the same way, and the description while specific to the telestial kingdom of glory is not exclusive to that kingdom of glory. Specificity in description is not exclusivity in attribute when the same element of description is used for the terrestrial also.

Okay, I went back and read it how you proposed. I then went and read all the verses over again and it's even more apparent to me that in speaking in verse 102 it is speaking in reference to having all in mind, "these all" are "they", meaning this is a strict dichotomy or separation point, as the only ones of God's children on this Earth who aren't part of the Church of the Firstborn. There really isn't a way to get around or understand it with the way it's worded.

It separates God's children into two groups in this verse. Those groups are- 1."they" who are "all" with consideration to "all" of God's children not gathered with 2. The "saints".

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Okay, I went back and read it how you proposed. I then went and read all the verses over again and it's even more apparent to me that in speaking in verse 102 it is speaking in reference to having all in mind, "these all" are "they", meaning this is a strict dichotomy or separation point, as the only ones of God's children on this Earth who aren't part of the Church of the Firstborn. There really isn't a way to get around or understand it with the way it's worded.

It separates God's children into two groups in this verse. Those groups are- 1."they" who are "all" with consideration to "all" of God's children not gathered with 2. The "saints".

Thank you for trying!

The last item in the list (“Last of all…”) describing the telestial souls is verse 102. The term “these all” refers to those souls described in verses 98-101. They will not be gathered, but neither will the terrestrial souls as explained earlier. The term “all they” refers to the many degrees of glory in the telestial kingdom as comparable to the varying light of the stars in the firmament.

Because Joseph Smith is shown the three separate, distinct kingdoms (plus perdition), which do not overlap, as separate visions – he is not looking at and comparing them side by side – it is appropriate that he record the separate and distinct visions in this way, each showing a world and an experience unto itself (note that verse 49, verse 50, verse 80, verse 113 indicate the end and start of each new vision).

Edited November 28, 2018 by CV75

[Traveler]

On 11/26/2018 at 7:48 AM, Rob Osborn said:

As I read the scriptures I have come across this passage or varriences of it. My question and thoughts are on several points. When do you think this occurs? At Christ's coming or after the millennium? A relevant scripture-

21 For ye are the church of the Firstborn, and he will take you up in a cloud, and appoint every man his portion. (D&C 78:21)

It appears that all those who are caught up are members of the Church of the Firstborn. As far as I understand, the Church of the Firstborn is Christ's eternal church that will spread forth into eternity. It's main designation it appears is having ones name written in heaven and is indeed Christ's heavenly Church. What do you think? Relevant passages-

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
            5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son. (D&C 88:4-5)

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
            54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
            55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things. (D&C 76:53-55)

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant. (D&C 107:19)

I suppose that the gathering of Israel, which has started, will continue throughout the millennium and it's purpose is to bring as many as will into the Church of the Firstborn. A relevant passage-

 

11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 77:11)

In this light, as I understand, the part about being "received into the cloud" happens after the millennium. Is this correct? And, all those received in the cloud are members of the Church of the Firstborn which are those of Celestial glory?

 

 

I believe that we can understand scripture literally almost never.  That we must comprehend the scripture spiritually (through the Holy Ghost) - almost always.  Thus I do not believe this is a singular event per-say but rather a prophetic utterance that pertains to all concerning the Plan of Salvation - both when the righteous die as well as when they are resurrected.  In addition this also pertains to the deliverance of the righteous when the wicked are destroyed - both when Jesus comes and at the end when all has been completed and the righteous are gathered for the last time and the work of salvation is done.

The 144,000 is not just a number but a spiritual reference to all the righteous gathered from all nations to which Israel was scattered.   The reference to High Priests is not so much a priesthood office as it is a references those called and ordained (think Moses) that lead the righteous by divine power throughout all the world to return the the covenant Zion - which is peace.

 

The Traveler

Edited November 30, 2018 by Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe that we can understand scripture literally almost never.  That we must comprehend the scripture spiritually (through the Holy Ghost) - almost always.  Thus I do not believe this is a singular event per-say but rather a prophetic utterance that pertains to all concerning the Plan of Salvation - both when the righteous die as well as when they are resurrected.  In addition this also pertains to the deliverance of the righteous when the wicked are destroyed - both when Jesus comes and at the end when all has been completed and the righteous are gathered for the last time and the work of salvation is done.

The 144,000 is not just a number but a spiritual reference to all the righteous gathered from all nations to which Israel was scattered.   The reference to High Priests is not so much a priesthood office as it is a references those called and ordained (think Moses) that lead the righteous by divine power throughout all the world to return the the covenant Zion - which is peace.

 

The Traveler

I can agree to that in general. So, even still, it appears the Church of the Firstborn is the only church with saving power.

[Traveler]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I can agree to that in general. So, even still, it appears the Church of the Firstborn is the only church with saving power.

Sometimes when we hear literal titles that are different - yet mean the same thing - we may not recognized that such titles do mean the same thing.  Anciently the notion of first born meant most noble or highest born.  Thus the Church of the Firstborn is the Church of Jesus Christ.  It is not the Church with saving power as it is Jesus Christ and the priesthood by which his power is given to those to officiate in his name and his proxy.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

21 hours ago, Traveler said:

Sometimes when we hear literal titles that are different - yet mean the same thing - we may not recognized that such titles do mean the same thing.  Anciently the notion of first born meant most noble or highest born.  Thus the Church of the Firstborn is the Church of Jesus Christ.  It is not the Church with saving power as it is Jesus Christ and the priesthood by which his power is given to those to officiate in his name and his proxy.

 

The Traveler

I understand. But what I am saying is that the church in the spirit world, in heaven, and in eternity is known as the Church of the Firstborn.

[Traveler]

22 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I understand. But what I am saying is that the church in the spirit world, in heaven, and in eternity is known as the Church of the Firstborn.

I do not think that "The Church" will even exist beyond the resurrection (perhaps for a time in the spirit world) - rather the relationship in eternity will be family.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

I do not think that "The Church" will even exist beyond the resurrection (perhaps for a time in the spirit world) - rather the relationship in eternity will be family.

 

The Traveler

Hum...the glory of the Celestial kingdom is the Church of the Firstborn-

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
            5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son- (D&C 88:4-5)

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...the glory of the Celestial kingdom is the Church of the Firstborn-

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
            5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son- (D&C 88:4-5)

All that is about getting there.  The Church of the firstborn is the means not the end - there is no ordinance sealing anyone to their ward or stake.  One must covenant within the church - but that is not the relationship or organization we are sealed to for eternity.

 

The Traveler

[theplains]

On 11/28/2018 at 12:00 PM, CV75 said:

Because Joseph Smith is shown the three separate, distinct kingdoms (plus perdition), which do not overlap, as separate visions – he is not looking at and comparing them side by side – it is appropriate that he record the separate and distinct visions in this way, each showing a world and an experience unto itself (note that verse 49, verse 50, verse 80, verse 113 indicate the end and start of each new vision).

If I am understanding the verses correctly, the Church of the Firstborn is only for exalted beings.

D&C 76:54-58 - "They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the 
Father has given all things—They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, 
and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after 
the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. Wherefore, as it is written, 
they are gods, even the sons of God."

I found this other link too:

"We have the opportunity to be “joint-heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17) and be numbered among “the
church of the Firstborn” (D&C 93:22; see also D&C 76:51–54). In this way we also can receive all that
the Father has (see D&C 76:55; 84:37–38)."

Reading a few other passages in Romans 8:

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.  For ye have not received the spirit
of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.  The
Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:  And if children, then heirs;
heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified
together."

Only the children of God are joint-heirs.

Thanks,
Jim