Received Up Into the Cloud, The Church of the Firstborn

[Rob Osborn]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

Only the children of God are joint-heirs.

I agree. But, in the end won't there just either be children of God or children of the devil?

[Edspringer]

On 11/26/2018 at 1:44 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Suppose for a minute, something to think over- If the Church of the Firstborn is Christ's heavenly Church, there isn't going to be any other church to belong to in heaven, right? Does this reality not hearken back to this passage-

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. (1 Nephi 14:10)

So, if we do not end up belonging to the Church of the Firstborn, will we belong to the Church of the devil?

Hi there

Well, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the Church of Christ on Earth, that is, the church of the Firstborn on Earth. Whoever becomes a member of this church and make covenants with God, walk in the path of righteousness and endure to the end will eventually become a member of the Church of the Firstborn. Paul refers to this as the Church of the Firstborns, meaning that the right of the Firstborn will be extended to all who deserve it. Now, not all members of the church of Jesus Christ on Earth will inherit the Celestial kingdom, but that doesn`t mean that they will belong to the church of the devil. The celestial, terrestrial and telestial kingdoms belong to God and His Christ, which means that they (these kingdoms) will be ruled by God, Jehovah and all those who will be worthy to be rulers in Heaven (kings and queens) to rule over the house of Israel forever (priests and priestesses). The only kingdom where the church of the devil will be is the outter darkness. There, Satan and his followers will live forever and ever.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Edspringer said:

Hi there

Well, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the Church of Christ on Earth, that is, the church of the Firstborn on Earth. Whoever becomes a member of this church and make covenants with God, walk in the path of righteousness and endure to the end will eventually become a member of the Church of the Firstborn. Paul refers to this as the Church of the Firstborns, meaning that the right of the Firstborn will be extended to all who deserve it. Now, not all members of the church of Jesus Christ on Earth will inherit the Celestial kingdom, but that doesn`t mean that they will belong to the church of the devil. The celestial, terrestrial and telestial kingdoms belong to God and His Christ, which means that they (these kingdoms) will be ruled by God, Jehovah and all those who will be worthy to be rulers in Heaven (kings and queens) to rule over the house of Israel forever (priests and priestesses). The only kingdom where the church of the devil will be is the outter darkness. There, Satan and his followers will live forever and ever.

So, is it fair to say that all who get saved from outer darkness will be members of the church of the Firstborn?

[Edspringer]

19 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, is it fair to say that all who get saved from outer darkness will be members of the church of the Firstborn?

No, definitely not. Let me tell you why.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the kingdom of God on Earth. So, I would be accurate to say that it is the Church of the Firstborn on Earth, so to speak. Through baptism and confirmation, we become a member of this Church, of the kingdom, on Earth. Through the ordinances of the temple and endurance to the end, we qualify ourselves for a membership in the Church of the Firstborn in Heaven, which is the highest degree in the celestial kingdom of God, where we will be kings and queens, priests and priestesses. A place where we will be gods for all eternity.

But what about those who will inherit the lower kingdoms of glory? Well, they will be under the government of the Church of the Firstborn, but won`t be part of it. Why is it so? The Church of the Firstborn is only for those who qualify for it. Terrestrial and telestial kingdoms will yet be awesome places to live in, but the kind of glory there will be much lower if compared to the celestial kingdom. They residents of these lower kingdoms won`t belong to the Church of the Firstborn because they didn`t live in accordance to the laws of the celestial kingdom. As for God everything is spiritual, it is right to say that they will belong to the church of Christ, but not to the Church of the Firstborn.

To be a member of the Church of the Firstborn one must earn the right to be a firstborn, but not because he/she was born first, but because he/she was granted the privilege to be a king/queen in the kingdom of God. Please read Hebrews 12:23 and see that Paul is talking not about the Church of the Firstborn, but about the Church of the Firstborns, meaning that this Church will have Christ as its head and His joint-heirs, His firstborns. Please also read D&C 76, Revelations 3:21 and Mosiah 5:6-7 to understand a bit more about how we become firstborns.

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

No, definitely not. Let me tell you why.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the kingdom of God on Earth. So, I would be accurate to say that it is the Church of the Firstborn on Earth, so to speak. Through baptism and confirmation, we become a member of this Church, of the kingdom, on Earth. Through the ordinances of the temple and endurance to the end, we qualify ourselves for a membership in the Church of the Firstborn in Heaven, which is the highest degree in the celestial kingdom of God, where we will be kings and queens, priests and priestesses. A place where we will be gods for all eternity.

But what about those who will inherit the lower kingdoms of glory? Well, they will be under the government of the Church of the Firstborn, but won`t be part of it. Why is it so? The Church of the Firstborn is only for those who qualify for it. Terrestrial and telestial kingdoms will yet be awesome places to live in, but the kind of glory there will be much lower if compared to the celestial kingdom. They residents of these lower kingdoms won`t belong to the Church of the Firstborn because they didn`t live in accordance to the laws of the celestial kingdom. As for God everything is spiritual, it is right to say that they will belong to the church of Christ, but not to the Church of the Firstborn.

To be a member of the Church of the Firstborn one must earn the right to be a firstborn, but not because he/she was born first, but because he/she was granted the privilege to be a king/queen in the kingdom of God. Please read Hebrews 12:23 and see that Paul is talking not about the Church of the Firstborn, but about the Church of the Firstborns, meaning that this Church will have Christ as its head and His joint-heirs, His firstborns. Please also read D&C 76, Revelations 3:21 and Mosiah 5:6-7 to understand a bit more about how we become firstborns.

Hum...if one keeps reading in Mosiah ch. 5 they will find that if they aren't born again, becoming son's and daughters of Christ, they do not merit salvation and are not made free and instead are found on the left hand of God and are cast into outer darkness.

[Edspringer]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...if one keeps reading in Mosiah ch. 5 they will find that if they aren't born again, becoming son's and daughters of Christ, they do not merit salvation and are not made free and instead are found on the left hand of God and are cast into outer darkness.

The Reading of Mosiah 5 needs to be very careful.

Those who comply with the laws of the gospel and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Master are born from Him and become His children, which means that they will receive the blessings of the atonement forever and ultimately inherit the highest degree in the celestial kingdom. Those who do otherwise will be condemned, or, won`t receive salvation. Of course, we`re are dealing with words with two meanings here. For example, salvation means to inherit the highest degree in the celestial kingdom or inherit any degree of glory. Condemnation means to suffer for personal sins and then receive a kingdom of glory or to be banished to the outter darkness with Satan and his angels. So, considering these two meanings for each word, it becomes easier to understand the whole scheme of things. Please read carefully D&C 76 and note who will inherit each kingdom.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Edspringer said:

The Reading of Mosiah 5 needs to be very careful.

Those who comply with the laws of the gospel and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Master are born from Him and become His children, which means that they will receive the blessings of the atonement forever and ultimately inherit the highest degree in the celestial kingdom. Those who do otherwise will be condemned, or, won`t receive salvation. Of course, we`re are dealing with words with two meanings here. For example, salvation means to inherit the highest degree in the celestial kingdom or inherit any degree of glory. Condemnation means to suffer for personal sins and then receive a kingdom of glory or to be banished to the outter darkness with Satan and his angels. So, considering these two meanings for each word, it becomes easier to understand the whole scheme of things. Please read carefully D&C 76 and note who will inherit each kingdom.

Mosiah states that there are two outcomes- born again sons and daughters of God  on the right hand and those on the left hand. The left hand is reserved only for tge devil and his angels to be cast out-

26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;

28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:26-28)

[Colirio]

@Edspringer, to save you a lot of frustration later, I will save you some time now. 

 

Rob Osborn believes the modern apostles and prophets are mistaken in their interpretations of scripture. He believes that the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms are not final kingdoms of glory and that they only pertain to now and millennium time periods respectively. 

[Edspringer]

17 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Mosiah states that there are two outcomes- born again sons and daughters of God  on the right hand and those on the left hand. The left hand is reserved only for tge devil and his angels to be cast out-

26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;

28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:26-28)

I see you point. But before inhereting the telestial kingdom, their imhabitants will suffer as the Savior did, because they didnt repent  (D&C 19:11-17), thefore they will have to pay their debt (Mathew 5:26; 3 Nephi 12:26). These people will be emprisoned during the millenium and will only resurrect in the very last resurrection. 

 

12 hours ago, Colirio said:

@Edspringer, to save you a lot of frustration later, I will save you some time now. 

 

Rob Osborn believes the modern apostles and prophets are mistaken in their interpretations of scripture. He believes that the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms are not final kingdoms of glory and that they only pertain to now and millennium time periods respectively. 

Thanx

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Edspringer said:

I see you point. But before inhereting the telestial kingdom, their imhabitants will suffer as the Savior did, because they didnt repent  (D&C 19:11-17), thefore they will have to pay their debt (Mathew 5:26; 3 Nephi 12:26). These people will be emprisoned during the millenium and will only resurrect in the very last resurrection.

D&C section 19 refers to the son's of perdition. They are the only ones in the end who do not repent and thus must suffer as the Savior did. Look at the timing-

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.
            4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
            5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

The destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world at the great last day of judgment is at the end of the millennium. Those who did not repent by this day are the ones found on the left hand. And who are they? The devil and his angels (son's of perdition)

[Edspringer]

42 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

D&C section 19 refers to the son's of perdition. They are the only ones in the end who do not repent and thus must suffer as the Savior did. Look at the timing-

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.
            4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
            5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

The destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world at the great last day of judgment is at the end of the millennium. Those who did not repent by this day are the ones found on the left hand. And who are they? The devil and his angels (son's of perdition)

Rob, please read D&C 76 and you will know what I am talking about. Check this out:

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

 

So, as we could see, the heirs of the telestial kingdom will experiment hell, the eternal fire, torment and suffering and will only be resurrected in the last resurrection (the fullness of times). They will abide in a kingdom of glory, the telestial world. The heirs of the outter darkness will come immediately after and will be cast out forever.

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, Edspringer said:

Rob, please read D&C 76 and you will know what I am talking about. Check this out:

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

 

So, as we could see, the heirs of the telestial kingdom will experiment hell, the eternal fire, torment and suffering and will only be resurrected in the last resurrection (the fullness of times). They will abide in a kingdom of glory, the telestial world. The heirs of the outter darkness will come immediately after and will be cast out forever.

It's my opinion, and strong argument for, that the telestial kingdom Joseph is writing about is our very earth right now, not a future kingdom. Verse 103, if you cross reference, is a group destined for the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. The problem is that the second death doesn't come until after resurrection and judgment at the end of the millennium. Cross reference-

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev. 21:8)

So, why is Joseph seeing son's of perdition in the telestial kingdom?

[Edspringer]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's my opinion, and strong argument for, that the telestial kingdom Joseph is writing about is our very earth right now, not a future kingdom. Verse 103, if you cross reference, is a group destined for the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. The problem is that the second death doesn't come until after resurrection and judgment at the end of the millennium. Cross reference-

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev. 21:8)

So, why is Joseph seeing son's of perdition in the telestial kingdom?

Ok, it`s your opinion and I respect that. 

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

Ok, it`s your opinion and I respect that. 

Also, in verse 102 (and the main reason I started this post) is a description of all of the inhabitants of the earth. There's only two groups- the saints who are caught up into the cloud and join the Church of the Firstborn, and those not caught up. And who are they? The son's of perdition who go into the second death.

[Edspringer]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Also, in verse 102 (and the main reason I started this post) is a description of all of the inhabitants of the earth. There's only two groups- the saints who are caught up into the cloud and join the Church of the Firstborn, and those not caught up. And who are they? The son's of perdition who go into the second death.

Ok