dsnell

Should "Praise to the Man" stay in the new hymnal?

Recommended Posts

47 minutes ago, dsnell said:

You just might! Seems like a good place to bounce ideas off of people, or to have ideas quickly shut down haha.

I'll shut this one down... ;)

English is not my first language.  That said, I don't understand the objection to the word Praise.  My son became champion of this grueling jiu-jitsu competition.  He was praised for his prowess on the mat and even handed this awesome sword as a first place prize.  How much more for what Joseph Smith accomplished through his faithfulness to God?

Also, the mingling with Gods... I understood that to be his First Vision and subsequent visions where he communed directly to Christ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

from what I recall...
I think they...
from what I understand...
without me knowing it...

Sorry @JohnsonJones, but the whole thing sounds like a passed down, muddy, distant 3rd person, campfire retelling. Either you were simply never told the full account* or time has dulled your memory on the facts. Now you are sharing this anonymous telephone game with others as if it is factually accurate. Honestly I'm not sure why you felt the need to so heavily interject such stories into a thread about a hymn? It feels like you are carrying this big chip on your shoulder just looking for the opportunity to off load it.

This isn't meant as a personal attack, simply an honest observation.
*a full account is almost impossible to obtain. I would wager that if you heard things, you only heard the side of the excommunicated and never the side of those involved in the disciplinary council. At best you received a one-sided picture of what actually took place and why they were really excommunicated.

Edited by NeedleinA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I'll shut this one down... ;)

English is not my first language.  That said, I don't understand the objection to the word Praise.  My son became champion of this grueling jiu-jitsu competition.  He was praised for his prowess on the mat and even handed this awesome sword as a first place prize.  How much more for what Joseph Smith accomplished through his faithfulness to God?

Also, the mingling with Gods... I understood that to be his First Vision and subsequent visions where he communed directly to Christ.

It's not the word "praise" that necessarily bothers me. It's a combination of a bunch of factors (some of which I've mentioned in earlier comments). As Latter-day Saints we're all well aware that we don't worship Joseph Smith and this hymn isn't meant to be worshiping him. But whether or not that is our intention, perception is everything. And I think this hymn, while awesome, could give newcomers the wrong idea in the same way that early church artwork gave people (and still gives people) the wrong idea about some things. I could totally get behind keeping the hymn and changing a couple of the lyrics, though, as has been done to it in the past.

When I hear "Mingling with Gods" I see Joseph Smith hanging out with a bunch of toga'd gods on a cloud sipping mimosas haha. When I hear "Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old," I see biblical prophets kneeling on either side of Joseph as he "enters his kingdom" for some kind of celestial coronation ceremony. Idk. Obviously these are just my subjective impressions and opinions, I just thing the song goes a little too far. 

As I've always understood this song to be a eulogy for Joseph, I've never understood "mingling with Gods" to be referring to the First Vision. Also the following line, "death cannot conquer the hero again," indicates to me (IMO) that the mingling is taking place after his death. Could he actually be mingling with the Godhead? I guess so, but that's a pretty big speculation to make based on one line of hymn text. I simply think it's doctrinally sketchy.

But again, feel free to shut that down haha. Just my opinion. Still love the song.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, dsnell said:

It's not the word "praise" that necessarily bothers me. It's a combination of a bunch of factors (some of which I've mentioned in earlier comments). As Latter-day Saints we're all well aware that we don't worship Joseph Smith and this hymn isn't meant to be worshiping him. But whether or not that is our intention, perception is everything. And I think this hymn, while awesome, could give newcomers the wrong idea in the same way that early church artwork gave people (and still gives people) the wrong idea about some things. I could totally get behind keeping the hymn and changing a couple of the lyrics, though, as has been done to it in the past.

When I hear "Mingling with Gods" I see Joseph Smith hanging out with a bunch of toga'd gods on a cloud sipping mimosas haha. When I hear "Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old," I see biblical prophets kneeling on either side of Joseph as he "enters his kingdom" for some kind of celestial coronation ceremony. Idk. Obviously these are just my subjective impressions and opinions, I just thing the song goes a little too far. 

As I've always understood this song to be a eulogy for Joseph, I've never understood "mingling with Gods" to be referring to the First Vision. Also the following line, "death cannot conquer the hero again," indicates to me (IMO) that the mingling is taking place after his death. Could he actually be mingling with the Godhead? I guess so, but that's a pretty big speculation to make based on one line of hymn text. I simply think it's doctrinally sketchy.

But again, feel free to shut that down haha. Just my opinion. Still love the song.

So... we are going to change our hymnal so other Christians will be more comfortable with it?  WUT???  Should we stop singing Families Can Be Together Forever too?

I taught Praise to the Man in Singing Time (my calling).  It was one of the Singing Time songs for the Primary Program a few years ago.  I have to say, what you're saying is not how that song is taught in Primary so dunno where you got that from.

Edited by anatess2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, dsnell said:

When I hear "Mingling with Gods" I see Joseph Smith hanging out with a bunch of toga'd gods on a cloud sipping mimosas haha. When I hear "Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old," I see biblical prophets kneeling on either side of Joseph as he "enters his kingdom" for some kind of celestial coronation ceremony. Idk. Obviously these are just my subjective impressions and opinions, I just thing the song goes a little too far. 

 

I envision not only Joseph Smith, Jr. but ALL of the Prophets hanging out with each other, counseling with Jesus Christ. Oh, also ALL of those who have passed through the veil of mortal life and are being taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or are teaching it. 

30 minutes ago, dsnell said:

As I've always understood this song to be a eulogy for Joseph, I've never understood "mingling with Gods" to be referring to the First Vision. Also the following line, "death cannot conquer the hero again," indicates to me (IMO) that the mingling is taking place after his death.

My first, middle and last impression of the "mingling with Gods" to be referring to the First Vision. As for the "death cannot conquer..." I take that to mean, Spiritual Death."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

So... we are going to change our hymnal so other Christians will be more comfortable with it?  WUT???  Should we stop singing Families Can Be Together Forever too?

I taught Praise to the Man in Singing Time (my calling).  It was one of the Singing Time songs for the Primary Program a few years ago.  I have to say, what you're saying is not how that song is taught in Primary so dunno where you got that from.

Hey man/woman, I'm not out picketing on Temple Square. Just sharing my opinion. Not trying to bash Joseph Smith. And yes, I think that if a hymn teaches something that's not totally correct, I think we should change it. I'm not getting my knickers in a twist over it, though. I see no problem with Families Can Be Together Forever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, dsnell said:

Hey man/woman, I'm not out picketing on Temple Square. Just sharing my opinion. Not trying to bash Joseph Smith. And yes, I think that if a hymn teaches something that's not totally correct, I think we should change it. I'm not getting my knickers in a twist over it, though. I see no problem with Families Can Be Together Forever.

Apache helicopter.

I don't think you're out picketing Temple Square either nor bashing Joseph Smith.  I simply think you are mistaken in your opinion that the hymn teaches something that's not correct.

If you don't see a problem with Families Can Be Together Forever that teaches a doctrine alien to newcomers, then there's no reason to take out Praise to the Man either.  All it is, is a matter of teaching the newcomers the doctrine behind the hymn much in the same way that I taught the thing in Primary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Iggy said:

I envision not only Joseph Smith, Jr. but ALL of the Prophets hanging out with each other, counseling with Jesus Christ. Oh, also ALL of those who have passed through the veil of mortal life and are being taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or are teaching it. 

My first, middle and last impression of the "mingling with Gods" to be referring to the First Vision. As for the "death cannot conquer..." I take that to mean, Spiritual Death."

I agree, as far as we know doctrinally, Joseph Smith is with everyone else in the Spirit World teaching those that didn't have the opportunity to learn about Christ in their lifetime. I don't think he's mingling with Gods (at least in any way I feel like is implied in the song). But if you take that to mean his First Vision experience, more power to you. In my opinion, if "death cannot conquer the hero again" refers to spiritual death, does that imply that Joseph had died spiritually before? Or what does the "again" refer to?

"Hail to the prophet ascended to heaven" (obviously referring to Joseph's state after his death.)

"Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain" (they fight him in vain because he's dead.)

"Mingling with Gods he can plan for his brethren" (IMO, he can now mingle with Gods (whatever that means) because he's dead.)

"Death cannot conquer the hero again" (Because he's already dead, is going to be resurrected, and won't be able to die again.)

That's how I see it, but hey, music is art and art is subject to interpretation, so your opinion is as valid as any. If that's what it means to you, then that's what it means to you and I have no right to tell you differently. But those are just my opinions on the matter. Not trying to start a firestorm. We're all on the same team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, dsnell said:

In my opinion, if "death cannot conquer the hero again" refers to spiritual death, does that imply that Joseph had died spiritually before? Or what does the "again" refer to?

https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith/death-spiritual?lang=eng

Spiritual death is separation from God. The scriptures teach of two sources of spiritual death. The first source is the Fall, and the second is our own disobedience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, dsnell said:

I don't think he's mingling with Gods (at least in any way I feel like is implied in the song).

I'm trying to not be too aggressive here but these complaints are, imo, so much rubbish! The song "implies" that Joseph communicated with God and Jesus. Anyone can read any type of made up nonsense into it beyond that and then claim offense but that sort of response is ridiculous! The usage of the word "mingling" was clearly used because it was artsy and fit the prose. To mingle with is to associate with. Joseph did associate with God. He most certainly still does. There's nothing weird or wrong or offensive about the idea at all, nor is there anything weird or offensive in the song at all unless one has a chip on their shoulder and is looking to be offended.

Should we just white wash everything that anyone misunderstands and lowest-common-denominator ourselves into "Christendom" like the re-organized church (Community of Christ) has done?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The Stone in the Hat story I think for the most part is bollocks

No; unless you consider our own Church history to be garbage.  It is written in our own Church history that the seer stone (single) and/or the Urim and Thummim in the hat were the or at the very least a primary method used to translate the Book of Mormon.  

In addition, our own Church acknowledges this through several sources on LDS.org.  Some examples are below:

Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone), and many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

More sources:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/10/joseph-the-seer?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/10/joseph-the-seer?lang=eng


In fact, historical evidence shows that in addition to the two seer stones known as “interpreters" (Urim and Thummim), Joseph Smith used at least one other seer stone in translating the Book of Mormon, often placing it into a hat in order to block out light. According to Joseph’s contemporaries, he did this in order to better view the words on the stone.

There are many other sources as well.  See below for a few:

https://www.lds.org/manual/foundations-of-the-restoration-teacher-manual/lesson-3-the-coming-forth-of-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/2015/09/joseph-smith-in-harmony?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrinal-mastery-doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-teacher-material/the-restoration-part-3?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-seminary-teacher-manual-2017/introduction-to-the-second-book-of-nephi/lesson-37-2-nephi-27?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/09/joseph-smith-in-harmony?lang=eng

There are many, many more sources.  

 

 

Edited by Scott

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Iggy said:

https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith/death-spiritual?lang=eng

Spiritual death is separation from God. The scriptures teach of two sources of spiritual death. The first source is the Fall, and the second is our own disobedience.

I'm sure @dsnell is well aware of what spiritual death is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, dsnell said:

I agree, as far as we know doctrinally, Joseph Smith is with everyone else in the Spirit World teaching those that didn't have the opportunity to learn about Christ in their lifetime.

Okay, when I taught this song in Primary, this is the primary source material for its supporting doctrine:  https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/08/praise-to-the-man?lang=eng

 

4 minutes ago, dsnell said:

I don't think he's mingling with Gods (at least in any way I feel like is implied in the song). But if you take that to mean his First Vision experience, more power to you. In my opinion, if "death cannot conquer the hero again" refers to spiritual death, does that imply that Joseph had died spiritually before? Or what does the "again" refer to?

"Hail to the prophet ascended to heaven" (obviously referring to Joseph's state after his death.)

"Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain" (they fight him in vain because he's dead.)

"Mingling with Gods he can plan for his brethren" (IMO, he can now mingle with Gods (whatever that means) because he's dead.)

"Death cannot conquer the hero again" (Because he's already dead, is going to be resurrected, and won't be able to die again.)

That's how I see it, but hey, music is art and art is subject to interpretation, so your opinion is as valid as any. If that's what it means to you, then that's what it means to you and I have no right to tell you differently. But those are just my opinions on the matter. Not trying to start a firestorm. We're all on the same team.

The lines you're referring to is the Chorus of the hymn, which is different in tone and structure from verses of a hymn.  While verses may narrate an event or convey an idea, the Chorus is intended to provide the "dramatic effect" or the emotion behind the poetry.  In this case, the Chorus is used to praise (as an accolade) the fulfillment of Joseph's mission.

Hail to the prophet ascended to heaven is not necessarily a declaration of his post mortal judgment.  Rather, it is a faithful accolade that the fulfillment of his mission pleased God.

Traitors and tyrants fight him in vain not because he's dead.  Traitors and tyrants fight him in vain because they can't stop Joseph's mission - that of restoring the gospel for the last dispensation.  

Mingling with Gods he can plan for his brethren is an acknowledgement (for praise) that his mission is not something he did of his own volition.  Rather, it is a plan set forth by the Godhead that he fulfilled.   The restoration is, therefore, not man-made but God-given.

Death cannot conquer the hero again is a symbolic death, not a physical death.  There's nothing better to convey this thought than this quote from Ezra C. Dalby in 1926:

"“When a man gives his life for the cause he has advocated, he meets the highest test of his honesty and sincerity that his own or any future generation can in fairness ask. When he dies for the testimony he has borne, all malicious tongues should ever after be silent, and all voices hushed in reverence before a sacrifice so complete.”

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dsnell said:

 

When I hear "Mingling with Gods" I see Joseph Smith hanging out with a bunch of toga'd gods on a cloud sipping mimosas haha. When I hear "Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old," I see biblical prophets kneeling on either side of Joseph as he "enters his kingdom" for some kind of celestial coronation ceremony. Idk. Obviously these are just my subjective impressions and opinions, I just thing the song goes a little too far. 

Can we help it if your imagination has been formed by the wrong media?  Perhaps we should see what the prophets of old think of crowns...

Psalm 8 (glory and honour)

Isaiah 62:3 (crown in the Lord's hand)

2 Timothy 4:8 (crown of righteousness)

James 1:12 (crown of life)

D&C 52:43 (crown of joy and rejoicing)

etc. and so on.  These verses describe the crown that Joseph Smith (and all the righteous) has / will receive, not Hollywood, not pagan imagery.

Meanwhile...

Quote

D&C 132:20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

and

Quote

D&C 138:38 Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all,

39 And our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God.

40 Abel, the first martyr, was there, and his brother Seth, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express image of his father, Adam.

41 Noah, who gave warning of the flood; Shem, the great high priest; Abraham, the father of the faithful; Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, the great law-giver of Israel;

42 And Isaiah, who declared by prophecy that the Redeemer was anointed to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that were bound, were also there.

43 Moreover, Ezekiel, who was shown in vision the great valley of dry bones, which were to be clothed upon with flesh, to come forth again in the resurrection of the dead, living souls;

44 Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;

45 Elias, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration;

46 And Malachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord—were also there.

47 The Prophet Elijah was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to their fathers,

48 Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the temples of the Lord in the dispensation of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the sealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming.

49 All these and many more, even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites and testified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance,

50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.

51 These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life,

And...

Quote

D&C 132:29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

...

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

If Abraham, then surely all the righteous who died before the Savior and thus were resurrected shortly after He was.  Thus, yes, gods.

The problem is not the hymn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm trying to not be too aggressive here but these complaints are, imo, so much rubbish! The song "implies" that Joseph communicated with God and Jesus. Anyone can read any type of made up nonsense into it beyond that and then claim offense but that sort of response is ridiculous! The usage of the word "mingling" was clearly used because it was artsy and fit the prose. To mingle with is to associate with. Joseph did associate with God. He most certainly still does. There's nothing weird or wrong or offensive about the idea at all, nor is there anything weird or offensive in the song at all unless one has a chip on their shoulder and is looking to be offended.

Should we just white wash everything that anyone misunderstands and lowest-common-denominator ourselves into "Christendom" like the re-organized church (Community of Christ) has done?

Fair enough. Your opinion is valid. I'm splitting hairs here, but if we're talking about what the lyric implies: "Mingle," according to the all-knowing interweb, means to "move freely around a place or at a social function, associating with others." And that is the imagery it produces in my mind (because that's what the word means). I don't think it's an interpretation so far out there to be worthy of the title "made-up nonsense." I think it's an artistic representation, however a misrepresentation of what we doctrinally believe Joseph did or is doing. The other definition is to "mix or cause to mix together." It's a fact that many people think we worship Joseph Smith. "Mixing" Joseph with the Godhead doesn't help, IMO. To us, who are familiar with Joseph and our doctrine, it might not bother us. But to outsiders it's just one more reason to think we're weird. And I am all for answering tough questions, talking about deification, and having missionary moments, but there's also a reason why the missionaries start with "God is our loving Heavenly Father," and not, "God lives on a planet near Kolob." 

But again, I have opinions about the hymn, but I'm not losing sleep over it. I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, zil said:

Can we help it if your imagination has been formed by the wrong media?  Perhaps we should see what the prophets of old think of crowns...

Psalm 8 (glory and honour)

Isaiah 62:3 (crown in the Lord's hand)

2 Timothy 4:8 (crown of righteousness)

James 1:12 (crown of life)

D&C 52:43 (crown of joy and rejoicing)

etc. and so on.  These verses describe the crown that Joseph Smith (and all the righteous) has / will receive, not Hollywood, not pagan imagery.

Meanwhile...

and

And...

If Abraham, then surely all the righteous who died before the Savior and thus were resurrected shortly after He was.  Thus, yes, gods.

The problem is not the hymn.

Thank you for the apologetics :). Granted, the lyric is "Gods" with a big "G," as opposed to "gods" with a little "g." I've been led to believe there's a difference between the two. But I see your point. I apologize if my opinion rubbed you the wrong way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Okay, when I taught this song in Primary, this is the primary source material for its supporting doctrine:  https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/08/praise-to-the-man?lang=eng

 

The lines you're referring to is the Chorus of the hymn, which is different in tone and structure from verses of a hymn.  While verses may narrate an event or convey an idea, the Chorus is intended to provide the "dramatic effect" or the emotion behind the poetry.  In this case, the Chorus is used to praise (as an accolade) the fulfillment of Joseph's mission.

Hail to the prophet ascended to heaven is not necessarily a declaration of his post mortal judgment.  Rather, it is a faithful accolade that the fulfillment of his mission pleased God.

Traitors and tyrants fight him in vain not because he's dead.  Traitors and tyrants fight him in vain because they can't stop Joseph's mission - that of restoring the gospel for the last dispensation.  

Mingling with Gods he can plan for his brethren is an acknowledgement (for praise) that his mission is not something he did of his own volition.  Rather, it is a plan set forth by the Godhead that he fulfilled.   The restoration is, therefore, not man-made but God-given.

Death cannot conquer the hero again is a symbolic death, not a physical death.  There's nothing better to convey this thought than this quote from Ezra C. Dalby in 1926:

"“When a man gives his life for the cause he has advocated, he meets the highest test of his honesty and sincerity that his own or any future generation can in fairness ask. When he dies for the testimony he has borne, all malicious tongues should ever after be silent, and all voices hushed in reverence before a sacrifice so complete.”

 

Valid interpretation, thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, dsnell said:

I don't think it's an interpretation so far out there to be worthy of the title "made-up nonsense."

Sure it is. If one wants to know what a poem means one generally considered what the poet meant by using any given word, not by using some internet search and then injecting meaning that was never intended (the "made up nonsense" to which I refer).

I can take any poem and do likewise (make up nonsense). Take for example the first one that I pull up in a search:

https://allpoetry.com/I-Know-Why-The-Caged-Bird-Sings

She says "his feet are tied" of a caged bird. THAT'S NOT RIGHT. Caged birds don't have their feet tied!

Do we really think William W. Phelps had a vision of Joseph sitting around with the Gods sipping cocktails when he used the word "mingling"?

If he didn't mean something like that, then why would we support the idea that it's acceptable for someone to come in and inject that meaning where it was never intended?

Moreover, let's just say for the sake of argument that some investigator presumes that it means we believe Joseph is "hanging out" with the Gods.

In the grand scheme of things is that really concerning? We believe, without apology, that man may be as God is. We believe that Joseph, certainly, WILL "mingle" in that sense if he's not currently. What, exactly, is the concern here? That we believe Joseph Smith will be a god someday if he is not already? Because...we do believe that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, dsnell said:

Granted, the lyric is "Gods" with a big "G," as opposed to "gods" with a little "g."

And it was written in a day when if you didn't have 3 or 4 different ways to spell the same word, you were considered ignorant.  I'm not going to worry about whether modern capitalization rules ought to be implying something here - especially when I'm perfectly comfortable with the implication either way. :)

11 minutes ago, dsnell said:

I apologize if my opinion rubbed you the wrong way.

You haven't.  I'm reacting to the notions, not the person who speaks them.  IMO, you're too worried about words and other people's interpretations and not nearly worried enough about what the Spirit has to say about that hymn.  Anyway, didn't you see my retraction?  I'm with you!  Yank it out!  Bring on the end!

Edited by zil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, dsnell said:

Granted, the lyric is "Gods" with a big "G," as opposed to "gods" with a little "g." I've been led to believe there's a difference between the two.

The so-called difference between the two is merely a help for clarity's sake but has not real meaning beyond the grammatical. Literally a capital G is used because it's a title/name. When we talk about "gods" it's not a name or a title. We differential to clarify that we don't believe we will replace "God" by becoming "God", but if our title, ultimately, becomes "God" then it would be inaccurate to be "god", in that if we populate planets with our eternal offspring and they worship us as their father and their rules of language mean they capitalize titles/names, then they would refer to us as "God" instead of "god".

As to the song, the use of "God" is William W. Phelp's poetic grammatical and punctuative* prerogative and has no bearing on the modern explanation of capital vs. no caps in the use of of the word "god".

*not a word. But awesome anyhow!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/26/2018 at 1:00 PM, dsnell said:

"Praise to the Man" is one of the faster, catchier hymns in the hymnal, but considering it's lyrics, do you think it should remain in the new iteration of the hymnal coming out sometime in the future?

No. Please remove "Praise to the Man" and "Put Your Shoulder to the Wheel." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, dsnell said:

It's not the word "praise" that necessarily bothers me. It's a combination of a bunch of factors (some of which I've mentioned in earlier comments). As Latter-day Saints we're all well aware that we don't worship Joseph Smith and this hymn isn't meant to be worshiping him. But whether or not that is our intention, perception is everything. And I think this hymn, while awesome, could give newcomers the wrong idea in the same way that early church artwork gave people (and still gives people) the wrong idea about some things.

You echo a lot of my own thoughts about that hymn.

5 hours ago, dsnell said:

I could totally get behind keeping the hymn and changing a couple of the lyrics, though, as has been done to it in the past.

It's not just the lyrics that bother me, it's the melody. Ohhhhhhh that melody. Scratching it entirely is fine with me, but that's just my opinion. I support whatever Church leadership decides.

5 hours ago, dsnell said:

When I hear "Mingling with Gods" I see Joseph Smith hanging out with a bunch of toga'd gods on a cloud sipping mimosas haha. When I hear "Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old," I see biblical prophets kneeling on either side of Joseph as he "enters his kingdom" for some kind of celestial coronation ceremony. Idk. Obviously these are just my subjective impressions and opinions, I just thing the song goes a little too far. 

Lol. Yes and yes.  We must have similar brains.

5 hours ago, dsnell said:

I simply think it's doctrinally sketchy.

Agreed.

5 hours ago, dsnell said:

"Mingling with Gods"

Who says "mingling" these days anyways?  There's a lot of outdated language in our current hymnal, which is why I think the Church is spot on to spruce it up a bit.

Similar to the hymn "Put Your Shoulder to the Wheel."  100 points and a raised eyebrow to anyone who has used the word "shirk" in a normal conversation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Ohhhhhhh that melody.

If you were in Scotland, someone would have to toss you off the nearest cliff.  Maybe your ward just needs some pipes and drums ... and a brass section...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now